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New Crane Shed Progress Pix, April 7; Paint! - plus...

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New Crane Shed Progress Pix, April 7; Paint! - plus...
Posted by Southgate on Saturday, February 17, 2018 2:13 AM

I'm looking for brass strip in the .025 -or so-  thick, and .100-.125 wide. K&S only goes as narrow as 1/2 inch wide. does anyone know of any sources? My searches turn up nothing. Thanks. Dan

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Posted by zstripe on Saturday, February 17, 2018 6:06 AM

Dan,

I run into the same problem. But I needed them 1/4'' wide. Thickness was about the same as You. I spent some time searching and could not find anything.

I wound up making My own. In my case, I did not need any real long. I went with a K&S Brass sheet .010 x4x10. Using My XURON Ecthing cutting shears, I was able to cut 1/4'' 4'' long strips that came out really good. There was a slight bow to them, but was able to lay it on piece of steel stock I have and with a brass jewlers hammer was able to take the bow out to make it extremely flat. I then used My right hand bend flat nose needle nose pliers to make a couple of 90 degree bends. I then used silver bearing solder paste to solder a 1/16" brass c-channel to the bottom of the 1/4'' sheet brass. So it would have a wider edge to CA them to three Pewter low boys I made. Cutting the sheet stock with those shears was real easy....making it truly 1/4'' was the harder part. But it worked out great.

The bulkhead on the low boys, with the name on it, is what I made out of the brass sheet: You don't say what You are doing....but It did work for Me....

I also would be interested to know if there is a source for 1/8'' wide brass strip...that's about what You need I believe. I'll havn't tried to cut one that small yet! Would probably curl up more.

Good Luck! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, February 17, 2018 7:45 AM

My LHS stocks K&S Flat Brass Bar in 1/64”, 1/32” and 1/16” thick by 1/32” to 1” wide.
 
 
The link is to my Google Drive, couldn't figure out how to post a PDF.  It's a K&S PDF listing what they sell.  I couldn't figure out how to rotate it so you will have to do it from Acrobat.
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
  
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by BigDaddy on Saturday, February 17, 2018 8:45 AM

Mel's pdf converted to a pic

 

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

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Posted by SouthPenn on Saturday, February 17, 2018 9:38 AM
South Penn
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Posted by emdmike on Saturday, February 17, 2018 9:55 AM

I get a sheet and have a friend with a band saw that he has a fine tooth bi-metal blade in cut it.  Then I just dress the edge with a file.  A nice bench top band saw is near the top of my wish list for shop tools right now

 

Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome

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Posted by zstripe on Saturday, February 17, 2018 4:47 PM

emdmike

I get a sheet and have a friend with a band saw that he has a fine tooth bi-metal blade in cut it.  Then I just dress the edge with a file.  A nice bench top band saw is near the top of my wish list for shop tools right now

 

 

Now that has to be hard to do with thin sheet and small width. Must be a pretty good liquid feed band saw. I know I can do it on My scroll saw with thicker stock and a wider piece.......but I needed thinner, which probably would need a thinner blade and steel jig to hold something that small........the shears worked ok for Me.

Thanks for the heads up Mel......I remember getting some yrs. ago, I was just looking in the wrong places. I should have looked directly at the K&S site instead of a supplier. Not all supplier's carry a MFG'ers complete product list.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by Southgate on Saturday, February 17, 2018 5:25 PM

Thanks for the replies, gents.  Frank, I love the fleet of trucks and equipment, especially the lowboy.

Mel, you got me on the right track. I found the size I can use from an online source, after checking with my LHS who can't get it. 

I want to build this, in HO:

The external braces are wood, but I want to use brass so they won't get broken through the years. The small cross braces could be 1/64 x 3/32. At 25 braces with 6 pieces for the cross braces... I cant see me hand shearing 150 pieces! I could use wood or styrene of I couldnt find brass, but looks like brass it is. Dan

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Posted by zstripe on Saturday, February 17, 2018 6:51 PM

Dan,

Thanks for the kudo's.....I'll have to take a photo with all the lowboys together. You know if You do not want to use brass, which You'll have to either use solder or CA to assemble, You can look at Plastruct shapes. They come in all different sizes....angles, tees, I-beams, c-channel, H-columns etc. They are styrene and ABS plastic, which I assemble with their Plastic Weld. I made this add-on for the Transload complex with all Plastruct shapes...My own design:

Interesting building.....the bracing really makes that building You want to build.

Good Luck, in Your project! Big Smile

Frank

EDIT: I should add, that it is extremely strong and is removeable.....brass 1/16'' rods CA'ed to the bottom of the H-columns, that go into holes in the foundation. Wires for LED lighting goes down a 1/8'' brass tube also CA'ed to the backside of the H-column below the base underneath layout.

 

 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, February 17, 2018 8:54 PM

Southgate
The external braces are wood, but I want to use brass so they won't get broken through the years. The small cross braces could be 1/64 x 3/32. At 25 braces with 6 pieces for the cross braces... I cant see me hand shearing 150 pieces! I could use wood or styrene of I couldnt find brass, but looks like brass it is.

I count 26 braces, and that's only on one side.  Regardless of what material you use, you're still going to have to cut it to size.  Make a jig for each piece, then mass produce them.  You'll also want a fixture in which they can be held while you do the soldering.
From the photo, I count only five pieces for the bracing:  two horizontal crossmembers, with a pair of diagonals forming the "Z", and the main diagonal, between the ground and the structure's wall - are you including the upright members in the wall, to which they're attached?  If so, soldering is fine, but if I'm missing the location of that sixth piece, and it's not the upright, how do you plan to attach the braces to the structure?
I'm also curious as to what was used to sheath the prototype, and what you're planning to use to represent it.

Wayne

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, February 17, 2018 9:03 PM

doctorwayne

 I'm also curious as to what was used to sheath the prototype, and what you're planning to use to represent it.

Wayne

 

 

I was wondering myself.  Looks like horizontal planking.  I would have said shiplap, but I think the grooves would have shown.

 

A VERY neat building.  

 

I rather think there's some kind of gigantic opening on the other end.  Being as there sort of HAS to be.

 

Ed

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, February 17, 2018 10:26 PM

I've been looking for more information, but about all I have found is that the structure was part of the area's lumbering history, and that it housed a large crane.  I'm guessing, but perhaps it was a clearing house for lumber distribution to area lumberyards (dealers).
The "large crane" bit puzzles me, though:  if it spanned the width of the structure, it must have been of fairly robust construction, leading me to question the use of wood for the exterior bracing:  was the crane runway and its supports also wood?  Judging by the spacing of the braces, it might well have been so.  A structural steel runway, with steel supports, would likely have need only half as many.

The prototype was apparently 500' long, so the HO scale model of it will be about 5'9" in length.

My GERN Industries...

...is about 6'7" long, so the Crane Shed model is perfectly do-able for a layout.  However, GERN is serviced by three sidings, two, of which have dual roles, and can accept various types of cars on those tracks, so it's a great traffic generator.
The crane shed, from what can be seen in the photo, must have been serviced from either the unseen side, or, more likely, the unseen end.  Since it's going on a model railroad, I have to assume that it was rail-served.
Whether that service was by a single track or multiple ones, I'd suggest building the model as a semi-low-relief structure, with the serviced end fully modelled, and the full length too, but with the back of the structure against the backdrop and tapering narrower and narrower towards the unseen end (the end shown in the prototype photo).
I did that with GERN Industries (the modelled portion represents about a third of what I imagined the overall length to be, and a much larger portion, the under-Lake-Erie-flux-mines, are not modelled at all.


Languay Pump & Compressor was modelled as a tapered structure, too...

...and as seen from the normally-unseen end...



For the crane shed, I'd suggest tapering the back side to a place just slightly back from the crown of the roof, as shown in the last photo of Languay's.  That way, from eye-level, the structure will appear to be fully-modelled, yet take-up less layout depth.  It also places the structure not parallel to the aisle/viewer, which usually makes a scene more interesting.

I'm sure that Dan will have his own thoughts on this, so these are just a few suggestions to consider.

Wayne

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, February 17, 2018 10:59 PM

Since it is a craneway, why not use a... craneway?

 Craneway1 by Edmund, on Flickr

I've seen several good-sized steel warehouses and mill buildings with enclosed craneways. Sometimes the braces were left open as in your photo, other times enclosed. Imagine these exposed craneways being sheathed, as in this photo at Altoona:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lrmyers/14501424977/in/album-72157629091837684/

Below, I've propped some Walthers crane rail braces along side their rolling mill building to give you some scale.

 Craneway by Edmund, on Flickr

My car shop uses a partially enclosed, roofed craneway:

 Carshop1 by Edmund, on Flickr

In this case the bracing is much simplified.

The Walthers crane kits can be found fairly reasonably and they should be pretty sturdy. Many of their kits come with decent roof trusses which could be used as bracing such as you seek.

Otherwise, have you considered making a pattern out of styrene then a silicone mould from that? Then pour as many copies from two-part resin and they will all be identical. You could add rivet plates (Tichy) and gussets at the joints for a massive look.

I guess the original Brooks-Scanlon Crane Shed building was demolished (without permits) in 2004.

http://www.trainweb.org/highdesertrails/bslco.html

 

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by OT Dean on Sunday, February 18, 2018 12:44 AM

Southgate

I'm looking for brass strip in the .025 -or so-  thick, and .100-.125 wide. K&S only goes as narrow as 1/2 inch wide. does anyone know of any sources? My searches turn up nothing. Thanks. Dan

 

  Gee, I missed this when it was first posted, but I'm surprised no one seems to know about the source I've used for many years: Special Shapes Company, in Chicago!  They advertised in Model Railroader for decades.  They have rectangular section bars, round bars, and structural shapes: T's, I-beams, H-columns, L's, telescopic tubing (round and square!), channels, etc.---and even hex rod.  It isn't cheap and you KNOW shipping's outrageous, but when isn't it, these days?

Deano

BTW, thicknesses don't include .025" specifically, but  maybe it works out that way; most of the tubing and channels I've used are fractional dimensions or close (.030" instead of 1/32", etc.), most of which telescope---er, fit inside one another.

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Posted by Southgate on Sunday, February 18, 2018 12:55 AM

Thanks for all the replies! I have a few assembly jigs from past projects with duplicated assemblies, so I know to making one will make assembly much faster regardless of what material I go with. The braces look to be about 10x10s on the long angled one and the verticals, which has siding between them. The z braces look like 2x10s, on both sides of the 10x10s. You can see that in the close end of the structure.  This I remember from seeing it in person. Thus 26 braces with 6 pieces for the z

As of the time any available photos were taken, the shed had long been repurposed, the big mill it served long gone, so how the ends may have looked in it's heyday, is up to speculation. I do know that a beverage distributor worked out of part of it for a while, after the mill shut down. I've never seen evidence of rail service, but that doesn't mean much. On my layout I'll adapt the end to fit my layout's need. 

I don't have to compress the length, but the width, I'll narrow a little on the back side against the wall. No need to angle it in either. 

So far:

 

 

That's a 40' flatcar.  The structure is masonite. The window cutouts in it are oversized, but the Northeastern Lumber sheathing will have them cut precise for the windows. The crane was used for moving lumber, nothing heavy like locomotives, so those wooden braces would have been sufficient. 

With a round roof, I'll just cut supports to suit with a bandsaw from masonite, and use cardstock, covered with some kind of rolled roofing.

I've read that the shed was 435 feet long, right at 5 feet in HO. That's what I made mine. Then, I read 500 feet.  I can't verify either with certainty, and both are believable. But I think a 5 foot long model will suffice!

(Edited in) Now that I know where to get brass,  I just found a stash of strip wood, both for the 10x10s and the 2x10s in my supplies I didn't know was there. Actually playing with it in hand, I think it will do fine for the job, plenty strong.  Thanks again for the replies, the sources are good to know.

Dan

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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, February 18, 2018 1:35 AM

Looks like you've got a pretty good plan already worked out!  I hope you'll share the project here as it progresses (and as time allows).

Wayne

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 4:39 AM

Outstanding Progress Yes

Now for the 6,000 holes to drill for the Tichy Nut-Bolt-Washer mouldings?  Whistling

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by zstripe on Tuesday, February 20, 2018 5:55 AM

Dan,

Great job so far.....Yes Yes Yes

Glad You went with wood...so much easier to work with.

The nut bolt idea.....does sound inviting, when You get the detail fever...Smile, Wink & Grin

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by Southgate on Friday, March 2, 2018 8:02 PM

Here's an update on the 'ol shed. It's amazing how tedious everything gets when ya gotta do it 25 times!

Northeastern scribed siding, 1/16 thick, 3/32 spacing is used for the siding. This is still mocked up, the siding is glued on but the braces are just snapped into the gaps.

As  I began to glue the siding on, the masonite began to warp cupping outward. The solution to that was to glue the masonite to 1/2 " particle board. That required making notches in it for the 25 windows. then slathering it with Elmer's wood glue. The thing's getting heavy.

Those clamps ought to hold everything flat till it dries, hmm? They did.

On to the siding itself: I made one panel, and installed it. On the 2nd one I got the window off center a bit. That won't do with 24 to go. So using the same jig the frames were assembled on, I cut a window template and centering guides. That made things much more accurate and quick.

I don't cut thru the template hole, just mark with a mechanical pencil and lay it flat on the bench and use an Exacto. That goes quick enough.

From the back:

Each time I glued a panel on, I'd clamp it flat with a top plank, Vise grips used to clamp it to the table, a door actually. But the glue acted like grease and the panels would slide slightly out of position. I discovered that using 2 clamps first on a dried section to secure it in place then a 3rd clamp (the C clamp) over the freshly glued panel stopped that.

All the while as I was adding panels, I'd have to check to make sure they were staying square. These went with a bit more difficulty than I thought they would, but  this part of it is done. 

Windows are going to be Grandt Line #5032   16 pane, 2 glued together for each window in the shed.

Now I'm facing rather a conundrum: As the model is taking on a life of it's own, I find myself reluctant to "selectively compress" the width of the building, since I didn't do so on the length. Something that adds to the equasion is that many who see the model in person will (and already are) say "That's The Crane Shed!... They then add: "Is that really how big it was?" Yup. Kind of.

 Then I'll have to 'splain, "well it was that long, but about 1/4 th wider."

As such an iconic building here locally, I feel it would be more meaningful to represent it as accurately as possible, compromise elsewhere.  I will leave off the rear braces, which can't be seen anyway.

That means shorting 2 tracks in my small class yard. But I think I can adjust for that by not cramming so many trains in there. 

Welp that's it so far. More as progress is made. Dan

Added in: I didn't underline everything. It got in by accident. 

 

 

 

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Posted by Southgate on Saturday, March 24, 2018 4:26 AM

Today this project reached what I would call a milestone. The sides, end, windows and braces are ready to paint.

But let's keep the progress report chronological, folks...

The real building uses bow string trusses to form the round roof. They won't be visible on the model so they were simplified by cutting particle board ones on a bandsaw. After this picture was taken they were further shaped more uniformly on a belt sander.

Spaced out for gluing to a flat sub roof, or ceiling I guess.

They were glued on and weighted progressively. Then the roof sheeting was made by manually curling heavy cardstock to general shape and cutting to fit width, gluing on with Elmers wood glue (used all through the construction of this structure). Note that holes were drilled in the edge of the base and box nails inserted for something to wrap rubber bands over for clamping.

Having worked all the way down, glue dry, the bands removed.

The roof is a separate piece.

This picture has been seen in the thread about large structures:

That masonite end needs to be done something with, huh?

A layer of that roof mat board was added to the masonite, and then the scribed wood sheathing was glued on. Cinder blocks add clamping weight.

Heres a look at the inside of that wall. The "roll up" door will be operational, so a simple mechanism was made to pull it up. It slides down under it's own weight as the winch is reversed to close it. The door is scribed styrene laminated to brass sheet for weight.

The aluminum channel frame is there cuz the wall kept trying to warp.

Heres a mocked up look at what's done so far with windows and braces set in place. That floppy roof edge will be stiffened and straightened eventually. 

This is the first HO model I ever recall building using a radial arm saw, band saw, belt sander, skil saw, cinder block weights, vise grip clamps, shop vac, and other big wood shop tools so extensively in the build!

Paint will have to wait for better weather, as much will have to be done outdoors. It snowed here today. I gotta find that shade of red in a rattle can, too.

Thanks for following. Dan

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Posted by Dave N on Saturday, March 24, 2018 8:01 AM
WOW!!! Beautiful craftsmanship!!!
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, March 25, 2018 12:40 PM

OK... WOW! That is quite a project.

.

Please keep the updates coming. I am looking forward to the final result.

.

-Kevin

.

Living the dream.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, March 25, 2018 1:22 PM

An impressive project, and nicely-done.  YesYes

Wayne

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Posted by Southgate on Saturday, April 7, 2018 2:05 AM
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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, April 7, 2018 2:58 AM

Very impressive, Dan, and very nicely-done! Thumbs UpThumbs Up

Wayne

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, April 7, 2018 6:03 AM

WOW!!!BowBow

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by dragonriversteel on Saturday, April 7, 2018 12:59 PM

 Foaming ! Hehe. Great job ! 

 

Fear an Ignorant Man more than a Lion- Turkish proverb

Modeling an ficticious HO scale intergrated Scrap Yard & Steel Mill Melt Shop.

Southland Industrial Railway or S.I.R for short. Enterchanging with Norfolk Southern.

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