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Deep Coupler Knuckes

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:01 PM

maxman
 
Scouser
Going to the Amherst show on the 27th so I'll pick up some couplers there and try the workaround 

You are wasting your time and money.

As I understand the issue, you are looking for couplers that have more vertical gathering range because with what you have one will slide up over another.  (I presume that you have checked that the centerline of the couplers are in line with each other on a level track.

My impression is gathering range isn't the issue.  Re-read scousers original post.  He can couple the racks together elsewhere on the flat and with the shelf couplers doing their job, that should prevent them from separating vertically when those cars pass through the transition from horizontal to grade.

Anway, iIt's not a waste of money.  Let me tell you why.  If, for some reason, the shelf couplers don't work out for the auto rack uncoupling issue, I expect scouser has some tank cars which could use the shelf couplers.  Wink  So far, out of all the tank cars I have purchased, none have come with shelf couplers out of the box.  I need to purchase some shelf couplers too.

The design of the shelf couplers prevents one coupler from sliding up over another.

Exactly, which is why using them should keep the cars from uncoupling on the transition to grade. 

 So you will be trading unwanted uncouplings for unwanted derailments.

Not necessarily a "given".  Remember, Kadee couplers have some vertical play in the draft gear which may allow the couplers to flex enough to let the auto racks to operate successfully and reliably in the problem spot.  The only way to know for sure is try buy a pack or two and install them.  At the very worst, those couplers could be used on tank cars, at the very best, the problem is solved despite the nay sayers.  Personlly, I think it is worth a try and risk is negligible.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:08 PM

 I have a vinyl someone gave me, it says "Close Enough Engineering - Probably OK"

 Regular Kadees have that same vertical give - and all I'm saying is that , at least when there is tension ion the pullign faces, so train going from flat to up hill, rahter than train coming down transitioning to flat when the slack will be bunched in, the friction on the pulling faces will cause that vertical movement to happen, and when that is insufficient, then the pulling faces will start sliding past one another until the come uncoupled. I postulate that if the normal vertical movement is not enough, preventing it from going much further by forcing the knuckles to remain aligned is going to lift one of the two cars.

 Enough to derail? perhaps not. Or it may be a 99 out of 100 thing where it runs right through 99 times out of 100, but that 100th time it comes off the rails. 

                      --Randy

 

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:13 PM

Scouser

lol, you are correct, I am originally from Liverpool Big Smile.

'Scouse' is a kind of meat and potatoe stew that was eaten in Liverpool during war times as it was inexpensive and easy to make, hence the name 'scousers'

Hah hah.  I learn all kinds of new words and idiom from my wife.  It's funny, we've been married since 2011 and suddenly after years, she will toss out a new word or saying she never mentioned in the previous 5 or 6 years.  Her latest with the cold weather is: "it's baltic"!!  I think she taught me scouser last year, but I am not sure if she knows the origins so I'll run that by her.

Another saying from WWII her family was saying a few years back is "stand by yer beds".  Supposedly what the soldiers were told when expecting an inspection.  But people still say it when they are telling you to basically brace yourself for something - like news or whatever!

Of course, "keep calm and carry on" - which has been totally co-opted in recent years, was the byword in Great Briton during WWII and all the bombings.

I don't know if you know, but my wife found a facebook group for British ex-pat's in the US, which she reads for fun.  Some of them live in the Washington DC area where we live - apparently one just up the road in Culpeper.  In our local Pharmacy (Chemist as the Brits call it) there is a lady who immigrated here in the 8th grade and has lived here probably 30 years now.  She gave my wife a "scratch" recipe for Yorkshire puddings - which we normally buy in a box mix in the international foods section at some grocery store.  Also how to make mint sauce from scratch too.  fun fun!

 

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by Scouser on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:20 PM

ha, I actuallly used "it's baltic" yesterday, too funny. Take a look at this https://www.quora.com/Why-are-people-from-Liverpool-called-Scousers

 

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Posted by AlienKing on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:28 PM

If you have a separate roadbed (cork or homasote) and underlayment (plywood, foam, door), you should be able to do so minimally invasive surgery on the section of track to buy you the millimeter you need. If you directly laid the track on the layout surface, then you might damage your track trying this, depending on the material you used.

 

For the top of the hill (convex), you could push a small coping saw blade between the roadbed and the underlayment. Keep firm even pressure on the track and make a few passes with the coping saw blade. Start with an 8 inch pass, then a 4 inch pass, then a 2 inch pass, and finally a one inch pass, all centered on the sharpest part of the transition.

 

At the bottom of the hill (concave), use a knife to separate the roadbed from the underlayment, and add some shims in the same pattern as above. An 8 inch long shim, a 4 inch long shim, a 2 inch long shim, and finally an inch long shim. The shims should be pretty thin, probably somewhere in the 0.5mm to 1mm range.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:41 PM

Scouser

ha, I actuallly used "it's baltic" yesterday, too funny. Take a look at this https://www.quora.com/Why-are-people-from-Liverpool-called-Scousers

My expat wife imigrated in 2011 but I swear I never heard her say baltic until last year.  Keeps me on my toes!  =P

Scouse is notable in some circumstances for a fast, highly accented manner of speech, with a range of rising and falling tones not typical of most of northern England.

I think she has played me some things on youtube and I had a hard time understanding what they were saying if they were in full blown slang.  My wife has toned down her Geordie but still says "why-aye" and and it's "baltic outside like"  Or"had away and shyte".  While we were living in Manassas she would get really frustrated because half the people in shops couldn't under stand her - but many were just being lazy and weren't even trying.  Since we moved way out into a tiny town, that issue has largely gotten much better, most can understand her ok.  Occasionally I do have to ask her to repeat what she said, but don't all husbands?  Stick out tongue

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:55 PM

AlienKing

If you have a separate roadbed (cork or homasote) and underlayment (plywood, foam, door), you should be able to do so minimally invasive surgery on the section of track to buy you the millimeter you need. If you directly laid the track on the layout surface, then you might damage your track trying this, depending on the material you used.

 

For the top of the hill (convex), you could push a small coping saw blade between the roadbed and the underlayment. Keep firm even pressure on the track and make a few passes with the coping saw blade. Start with an 8 inch pass, then a 4 inch pass, then a 2 inch pass, and finally a one inch pass, all centered on the sharpest part of the transition.

 

At the bottom of the hill (concave), use a knife to separate the roadbed from the underlayment, and add some shims in the same pattern as above. An 8 inch long shim, a 4 inch long shim, a 2 inch long shim, and finally an inch long shim. The shims should be pretty thin, probably somewhere in the 0.5mm to 1mm range.

It's hard to say.  on my last layout I deliberately made vertical easements to go from flat to 2.9% grade with a series of sections what were at gradual grade increasements.  I went from 0, to 0.5 for a several feet to 1.2, to 1.6 to 2.2 to 2.5 to finally 2.9 (I don't remember the exact grades but it was something like that.  Of course having to go back and redo a stretch with intermediate grades covering around 12 to 14 feet might be harder than minimally invasive surgery.  I guess it just depends on what it takes to remove the sharp transition.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by bing&kathy on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 4:06 PM

   If you have a foam base like I do, use a sur-form rasp to cut down the high spot. I have a 2% grade, double track, and used this trick to ensure a gentle transition on both top and bottom of the grade.

God's Best & Happy Rails to You!

Bing  (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 4:45 PM

Scouser

ha, I actuallly used "it's baltic" yesterday, too funny. Take a look at this https://www.quora.com/Why-are-people-from-Liverpool-called-Scousers

 

 

 I thought the guys from Liverpool were called the Beatles? Smile, Wink & Grin Smile, Wink & Grin Smile, Wink & Grin

                                   --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 6:44 PM

riogrande5761
...Occasionally I do have to ask her to repeat what she said, but don't all husbands?

Only if we were listening in the first place. Whistling

Wayne

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 7:16 PM

doctorwayne

 

 
riogrande5761
...Occasionally I do have to ask her to repeat what she said, but don't all husbands?

 

Only if we were listening in the first place. Whistling

Wayne

 

 Or you sense a disturbance in the force and figure it's better to be safe than sorry.  Have you been sorry before?  Of course!  More times than we care to admit.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by snjroy on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:16 AM

About the coupler issue, I would do a good diagnosis before trying anything. I would roll two of the offending cars slowly to see what is the difference in height and what could be the cause. It could be many things (slope, track, coupler, wheels, etc.). The height difference might be too high for the couplers you are considering.

Simon

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Posted by SouthPenn on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:47 AM

I don't why this fixed some uncoupling issues, but; 

I was experiencing uncoupling issues with Walthers 70 ton hoppers. The hoppers would uncouple at random places on the track. I replaced all the couplers with KDs. I still had problems. I double checked each coupler with a Kadee height gauge. I still had problems. I made sure each coupling jaw on the coupler was free to move. I still had problems. I don't why I did this, but I put a drop of CRC 2-26 on the head of each coupler. End of uncoupling problems. I can only speculate that the couplings were binding and causing them to uncouple. Maybe the coupling jaws could move further and clamp better? The lubricant let the couplers move around some? It's a year since I lubricated the couplers and I still don't have any uncoupling issues.

Might be worth a try before buying all new couplers.

South Penn
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Posted by Scouser on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:59 AM

Interesting, I don't think it fix my issue but worth knowing :)

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 8:28 AM

snjroy

About the coupler issue, I would do a good diagnosis before trying anything. I would roll two of the offending cars slowly to see what is the difference in height and what could be the cause. It could be many things (slope, track, coupler, wheels, etc.). The height difference might be too high for the couplers you are considering.

Simon

This issue would be true if a modeler was being naughty and not following standard best practices like checking rollinstock coupler height with the good ol Kadee height gauge and making necessary adjustments to all rolling stock.  For those of us who grew up with kits, this practice became firmly engrained as part of a check list of getting the model out of the box and on the layout.

But you know what they say about assumptions (Under Siege II).

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by Lone Wolf and Santa Fe on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 11:27 AM

doctorwayne
If your track is nailed in place, pull all of the nails within, and somewhat beyond both ends of the area of the transition. What I'm suggesting is that you free the track enough so that it can be lifted and allowed to make its own transition. Once it looks appropriate, you can either slip blocks of wood or foam of suitable thickness under the track at intervals,

I agree. I had the exact same problem as you are having and simply loosening the nails and letting the track have less of an abrupt change is the solution, and it is an easy one. I just slipped some match sticks or popsicle sticks under the track at one point and it fixed the problem. I really didn't do much except relieve the tension on the track and let it make it's own curve which was more gradual. This is one reason that I always test and retest my track when installing it and I never apply the ballast until I know the track is perfect. Don't waste your money on couplers just fix your track.

Modeling a fictional version of California set in the 1990s Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Railroad
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Posted by Lone Wolf and Santa Fe on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 11:34 AM

I assume that all of your couplers are at the proper height as compared to the Kadee couple height gauge. If some couplers are low and some are high you will have problems like you are having. If some are high but none are low then that might be acceptable because you can have some margin of error, but it’s better not too. Kadee makes couplers with under shanks and over shanks to correct height problems. Fixing that might be the solution that you need.

Modeling a fictional version of California set in the 1990s Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Railroad
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Posted by Scouser on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 12:37 PM

All couplers are at the correct height according to my Kadee guage

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 1:57 PM

Scouser

All couplers are at the correct height according to my Kadee guage

 

IMO, it can't hurt to pick some up pack of Kadee shelf couplers and give'm a try.  Likely you have some tank cars that could use the shelf couplers if you don't end up needing them on the long cars so no waste either way.  I still need to change out the stock couplers on my tank cars so I need to order some myself.

BTW, it looks like others have used shelf couplers for exactly the same reason you started this topic  Wink

Here is some comments for the SF type at MB Klein:

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Kadee-HO-Metal-SF-Shelf-Coupler-Metal-Mediu-p/kad-118.htm

Great for longer cars April 5, 2015
Reviewer: Bill from Linthicum, MD United States  

I had problems with my Superliner cars uncoupling whenever coming over a change in grade or dip in the tracks due to lateral changes in height from one car to the other. These couplers solved that problem by holding on to each other even with differences in lateral height.

So I guess I'm earning the moniker I put in my siggy by going against the prevailing advise here.  Stick out tongue  Or am I just simply being a contrarian in this case?

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by Scouser on Sunday, January 28, 2018 11:28 AM

Just thought I'd round up this discussion by letting you all know that I purchased both 118 & 119 Kadee shelf couplers and installed them on the 2 car racks.

So far they've been round the layout more than 50 times and no de-coupling Smile

thanks everyone

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Sunday, January 28, 2018 1:55 PM

Awesome!  Big Smile

and Bob's your uncle!

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, January 28, 2018 2:16 PM

Thanks for the update.

Glad the solution for you was effective and inexpensive.

Regards, Ed

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