Won't mention the name of the hobby shop (Mineola,NY) but went to this place to pick up some switch tracks for my son's shelf layout recently and was asking if basic Atlas switch motor voltages were low enough for the NCE 8switch.
One of the older gentlemen that was helping me got an annoyed look on his face and said to me he doesn't understand why I was using DCC to control my switches and not 'push buttons.' And this was after I showed them pics of the 7 foot high shelf layout!
Right there I just put down $70 worth of tracks and walked out. That was the shortest amount of time I've ever spent in a hobby shop. My wife was even confused why I was out so fast. Went online and got them elsewhere.
I get that some people are old school, but don't disrespect someone else's layout design methods.
Edit after replies:1. I stated my intentions for asking about an Atlas switch motor 2. I stated I was already using tortoise motors on current layout with the NCE 8 switch3. I showed pics of said layout on smartphone 4. After employee made said comment I stated my son was using JMRI
That being said, when I go into a hobby shop asking specific questions, I am asking questions that are quite appropriate and I also make it a purpose to give as much info as possible. So if some of you want to come to the conclusion that the problem was on my end, the only thing I didn't do was drive this man to my house to show him my layout design.
Edit part 2: The Atlas part, incompatible or not, had nothing to do with my complaint. The complaint was the employee was irritated that I was using DCC to control my switch tracks.
The NCE website says that switch is for stall motors, and the Atlas is a twin coil so my guess to your original question is no. If that's true maybe the guy thought he was saving you money.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
robkozOne of the older gentlemen that was helping me got an annoyed look on his face and said to me he doesn't understand why I was using DCC to control my switches and not 'push buttons.' And this was after I showed them pics of the 7 foot high shelf layout! Right there I just put down $70 worth of tracks and walked out. That was the shortest amount of time I've ever spent in a hobby shop. My wife was even confused why I was out so fast. Went online and got them elsewhere.
That's one way of driving your customers off. With a solid $70.00 sale he should have been helping you find the answer not questioning why you are using DCC to control your switches.
And people wonder why hobby shops are failing..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Well, I can understand your reaction. First, you are lucky enough to at least have a shop you can frequent! Many of us have to do all our shopping by mail and internet. In itself that's ok but sometimes you just want to touch and fondle things before you make a decision to buy them.
NOW.........I understand how you feel about this. Normally one goes to a shop and expects to be treated with at least some respect and dignity. Unfortunately, after over 50+ years of visiting many hobby shops all over the USA I have found many to have surly or smart assed folks behind the counter. With the declining number of shops one of the reasons is the managers/owners are aging and can't find anyone to buy the business. I have worked in many shops over the years and have heard some of the same questions and statements over and over and it gets old dealing with it. Many of these older guys have just had enough of it and rather than shut up, retire or hire some new blood they turn nasty and surly toward the customers. Sort of just human nature but it is what it is.
I lived in the DFW area for several years in the early 1970's when there was an abundance of hobby shops. Several are legendary for their arrogant or downright nasty proprietors. One was so rude he wouldn't even turn the lights on in the back area where all the interesting stuff for me was located. Sorry but I don't carry a flashlight with me to see things to buy. He refused several times to remove items from a case so I could look at them closer. What a jerk. One of the others had an old guy that sat on a higher platform at the front of the store by the door and would grumble and complain if you asked to see something in a case and tell you how busy he was. Another store just had a few jerks that worked with the old lady that owned it and unless you were one of the "chosen few" published pioneer modelers in the area you weren't worth talking to.
Anyway, I'm sorry you experienced that treatment and it wasn't called for. There are many ways to do things and your way obviously didn't agree with his. That's his problem as he apparently lost a sale. That's what he's supposed to do.SELL STUFF......so if he can afford to chase business out the door then just go for it!
I order everything from Model Train Stuff and get great service all the time.
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/
Best of luck and don't let this butthead discourage you.
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Are you sure it was a look of annoyance and not just puzzlement? Everyone wears their face a little differently, and expressions can be misinterpreted.
Be that as it may, my election when encountering people who fail to understand my needs is to attempt to explain those needs, sometimes just by improving the other person's appreciation of the context. If that becomes onerous, or an exercise in futility for some reason, then I can simply exercise my customer's privilege to purchase as I intend anyway, or to leave and to consider other options, including shopping elsewhere.
Was the person actually discourteous in any way, or did he seem impatient or hostile?
It's not just in model trains. I know a contractor who has alienated almost all of his old customers (It's a gift!). Anyone can start a small business: crabby people, friendly people, socially dense people.......
Going the other direction, I've been going to my "shop of choice" for about 15 years. I've never seen the previous owner, the current owner, or the employees ever be anything but friendly and supportive to all customers.
Model railroading has a bit more than its share of socially dense people. And, as I noted, anyone can start a small business.
They just may not be as successful as they could be.
Ed
I worked for a train store that had a surly employee who chased away a few customers.
The owners understood somewhat, because his wife was battling cancer for years, and so they put up with it and had a heart.
Maybe consider the surly employee may have a reason for his mood that has nothing to do with you. That doesn't excuse their actions, but maybe try to have a heart. Online sellers can be grumpy and mean too, you just don't always have to talk to them...
My friend took over as sales manager 25 years ago, and doubled the store sales in 5 years. The former employee is still alive and has made it to age 90 something...
John
BigDaddy The NCE website says that switch is for stall motors, and the Atlas is a twin coil so my guess to your original question is no. If that's true maybe the guy thought he was saving you money.
That could be. Perhaps he's tired of customers complaining that the switch machines he sell them are not compatable with the stationary decoders they've already bought.
I use mostly pushbuttons and a few stationary decoders. I find the buttons to be more convenient, personally. While DCC control is high-tech, it's definitel more awkward when you have to figure out a decoder address, drop control of your locomotive, punch a bunch of buttons and then recover you locomotive.
While I don't agree with anyone's surly attitude, I echo his sentiment.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Customer relations has been a skill that has failed many hobby shops. I don't know why it seems more prevalent in hobby shops than other family businesses. Oftentimes, their desire to help is presented as criticism, or as them being a know it all. But I think in the end they are just trying to be helpful.
While I agree with the basic premise that pushing one button for one turnout is a simpler process than acquiring an address (sometimes doing things with tech just for the sake of doing things with tech), a further explanation of what you were trying to do may have provided useful info.
Not excusing the owner's surliness, but if explaining your goal would have been the response instead of walking out, he may have changed his tune and it may have saved you time and hassle.
There is a hobby shop I use once in a while where the owner has a reputation for being surley. All you have to do is ask him a few questions and respect his advice, treat him as the knowledgeable and experienced fellow he is, and his personality melts. No, you shouldn't have to do that, but sometimes if you push back a bit, but in an inquisitive manner that taps his experience, it helps.
Or, he may not even have known what you were asking and surliness was his way of being defensive.
- Douglas
Sorry, but I have to side with the hobby shop on this one.
You tried to buy things that are incompatible with each other. The hobby shop employee questioned why would you want to do that when you could just use a less expensive option that actually would work. Instead of explaining why or listening, you stormed off leaving a pile of merchandise for the employees to restock.
Apparently, the employee should have just sold you the incompatible items, then after you took them home and melted them (because solenoid switches don't like constant power), give you a full cash refund when you returned the plastic goo that used to be an Atlas switch motor to the store.
I hate to break to folks here, but the customer is not always right.
There are still some hobby shops located in this city, including a couple or three that have only trains.
I have had my share of dealing with employees that are a bit arrogant, but I loved Sam. He was an old timer who worked in the model railroad dept of a hobby shop and he was marvelous with his advice when I asked for it, which was quite often.
A few times, I desperately needed some advice and came up with something to buy because I thought that was only fair. He was surly, to another employee, a couple of times. I walked in with a problem, and explained it to him, and asked if he could help. He stood there thinking and an employee from radio controlled planes came over and offered his 2 cents worth. Sam looked at him, and growled, "That wont work." Then Sam would suggest a fix for my problem. Worked every time.
Then Sam quit to take a job closer to his home. Man, did I love dealing with Sam.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Then again, there was the retired TAMU professor who insisted that I build a 20% grade (24 inch rise in 10 feet) because that is how he could get track from one shelf to another shelf on his true shelf railroad. I wouldn't do it, because I said it was impossible. He argued that I could not know without conducting an experiment. He wanted me to buy a 10 foot piece of plywood to test the theory (he was a Phd) to prove my point. I refused. I got fired, which was fine, because I was spending too much time on his railroad and not enough at my hobby shop.
The next guy he hired to build his railroad had to do the experiment. Of course, it didn't work.
Have to agree with Paul3 somewhat, but the shopkeeper probably could have handled the situation better.
I do a little contract work for my closest model railroad shop and get to listen in on a lot of customer questions -- it can sometimes take time and patience to get to the root of a customer's questions. Not all hobby dealers are up on the latest tools and techniques. For them it's a job, not a hobby, and they may not settle down with the latest RMC or website when they get home.
If one of the newbies at the club was telling this story, I'd ask them to look at the statement "Sorry. I had to vent that. This has not been an easy first time build." and decide how much of that feeling was at work during their hobby store visit.
Well, I know well the Hobby shop in Mineola you mention, having been there many times, and the staff is almost always helpful (sometimes even cheerful, althought that's not always a given).
I know that hobby shop quite well. I too have to agree somewhat with Paul3. I have an NCE system, and considered using the NCE accessory deocders to control all of my Altas switches. However, with close to 100 switches on the layout, I would go broke. I went with the push button route ($0.50 each) and made my own panels. The staff at the hobby shop in question is fairly knowledgeable. Since we don't know what the guy said to you (since we weren't there), I think we should chalk this up to a slight miscommunication by one of the parties.
NCE does make an accessory decoder to work called the 'Snap-it'. This is for twin coil switches like Atlas, Bachmann Peco, etc.
Good luck!
Neal
Paul3I hate to break to folks here, but the customer is not always right.
That may be true but,for a shop to remain open it should have good customer service after all my dollars is helping the shop to stay open..If a owner is a jerk or disrespects me I'll spend my cash else where.
If the owner is in the game he will tell me those Atlas switch machines is not DCC friendly.I would then ask what he recommends.
robkoz Won't mention the name of the hobby shop (Mineola,NY) but went to this place to pick up some switch tracks for my son's shelf layout recently and was asking if basic Atlas switch motor voltages were low enough for the NCE 8switch. One of the older gentlemen that was helping me got an annoyed look on his face and said to me he doesn't understand why I was using DCC to control my switches and not 'push buttons.' And this was after I showed them pics of the 7 foot high shelf layout! Right there I just put down $70 worth of tracks and walked out. That was the shortest amount of time I've ever spent in a hobby shop. My wife was even confused why I was out so fast. Went online and got them elsewhere. I get that some people are old school, but don't disrespect someone else's layout design methods. Sorry. I had to vent that. This has not been an easy first time build.
Sorry. I had to vent that. This has not been an easy first time build.
Now you've poked the bear.
I've traveled around the country and lived in various cities and states and made it a point to visit many hobby shops. Your experience, sadly, isn't that uncommon so you may find it necessary to vent more in the future. Just cause guy wants to own and run a hobby shop doesn't mean he is good at it, or is Mr. personality. As many can attest here, there are plenty of Hobby Shop owners with the personality of a wounded water buffalo. Welcome to the hobby? Switch to online buying!
Paul, sure yeah, he may have been right, but does he want to sell stuff and make money or be right and lose customers. Just sayin... there is right and broke, and just sell the dam stuff and survive. It's hard enought to make it a hobby shop these days without being your own worst enemy. His choice of course.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
This thread shows a big part of the reason hobby shops are dying. I buy 90% of my stuff online. No rude or surley shop keepers online. When I hear ofanother hobby shop closing I wonder how many customers did he drive away by being a jerk? If the guy in the OPs post had given a non jerky answer he may have kept a customer. His loss not mine.
I bought a Proto 2-10-2 from a store in Brooklyn, NY (Yeah, that one). I decided to swap out the axle for the one with the traction tire (supplied), but after getting it back together, the gears wouldn't engage. I took it back to the store and asked if they had a repair service, and when I told him what I did, he started reaming me for fixing something that wasn't broke. I mean, if I wasn't supposed to change the axle, why do they supply it? Anyway, I ended up fixing it myself by just sliding the gear sideways with an NWSL puller.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
When hobby shops started dropping like flies a decade ago, it seemed the surliest and rudest owners hung on the longest. At least around here. Thank heaven Gulf Coast Model Railroading in Sarasota has survived, and Metro Trains opened in Fort Myers.
.
I travel all round the Eastern USA for work now. There are a lot of bad hobby shops out there. Florida is blessed with lots of great ones. We lost Orange Blossom in Miami, but overall we are in good shape right now.
If you have a well stocked local shop, you are quite lucky. Support them even if they are having a bad day. We all do. If it becomes a pattern, move on.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
We are fortunate to have 2 shops here in town. One has outragiously high prices and very very dated items on the shelf at those prices. The other has been back sliding as the owner gets older and his customer service skills have gotten worse and his constant bad mouthing of products people are wanting to buy. I will leave it at that. But, if you want it and he has it, you either suck it up and buy it or deal with online buying. There are 2 very good shops in Indianapolis that I go to on a regular basis and they get most of my train spending. Most of the trains I am looking for were new decades ago, so the one in Indy that gets in lots of estate and second hand items is my favorite place to go. The rest of my spending is split between shows and various online places. We used to have a N scale only shop in Indy, owner was downright insulting to you. But, for those that could fire back with quick one liners or turn the insult back on him, you got great deals. Just the way he was. Everything was a POS to him, even Kato and Atlas. But that is just how he spoke and his personality. Was it the best for business, no, but he remained a popluar spot to get anything N scale till he passed away. One has to remember, nobody is getting rich selling model trains. Its nearly impossible to raise a family on the profit from a hobby shop anymore unless its huge like Caboose hobbies was ect. Not giving them an excuse, but its just how it is, like it or not. Now back to enjoying model trains! Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I have had some extremely bad experiences with hobby stores that were just plain rude. The worse one was near my home, if I tried to ask a question, the owner treated me as if I was stupid. Needless to say, I left the items I was about to pay for (cash) by the register and left. I am glad to report that the store went out of business
emdmikeThere are 2 very good shops in Indianapolis that I go to on a regular basis and they get most of my train spending. Most of the trains I am looking for were new decades ago, so the one in Indy that gets in lots of estate and second hand items is my favorite place to go.
Now that Hawkins is gone, I am looking for new places to go when I visit Indiana. I have been to Train Central on Washington (I think that is right), and they have a great selection of detail parts to dig through. Is the other one you are talking about "Sanford & Son"? I have never been there. Is it decent? I love digging through estate items.
I will be back in Indianapolis in February. Should I stop by?
I have been pretty fortunate with train stores. Some have even become lifelong friends.
Only really ever got shafted by Classic Trains International, of course Trainworld's sloppy shipping which badly damaged a locomotive, and perhaps a couple others. It is generally the online and mail order dealers that can be the worst offenders, at least for me.
Paul3Sorry, but I have to side with the hobby shop on this one. You tried to buy things that are incompatible with each other. The hobby shop employee questioned why would you want to do that when you could just use a less expensive option that actually would work.
I'm also going to side with Paul's take on this. The NCE Switch 8 is designed for controlling Tortoise or another stall motor type switch machines. It will NOT work with the Atlas solenoid type switch machines, in fact, it would probably be damaged if you tried to hook it up to Atlas like you implied you wanted to do. Then when you bring back your fried Switch 8 and he would be forced to explain he cannot offer you a refund due to your failure to follow instructions, verify if it's compatible, etc, you would REALLY be miffed.
Yes, the hobby shop needs to employ polite employees, but they also need to be ones who can gently guide the customer to something more appropriate when they are headed down the wrong track. I assume that was what was being attempted, maybe too clumsily, but consider he was trying to save you money, time, and frustration -- even if you failed to recognze that at the time.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Graham Line,How about the customer? Why couldn't he have handled the situation better? For example, years ago I went to an LHS to buy flex track for my layout. I wanted Atlas Code 83, and when I started making a pile of track on the counter, the owner said that I should be using Atlas Code 100 because it was cheaper, tougher, and did the same thing as Code 83. Instead of storming off in high dungeon because the hobby shop owner dared question my modeling choices, I explained that I preferred the finer detail, color, and look of Code 83. I then proceeded to buy the track I wanted. It didn't make me angry.
Brakie,I agree that good customer service is a must for any retail business. However, people have to be good customers, too. The retail business should be heavily biased towards the customer; after all, they have the money. However, some customers are so sensitive that you can't wish them a good day without them questioning your motives.
BTW, DCC friendly had nothing to do with this. Using a constant power supply on a solenoid is a quick trip to melty-ville, no matter if it's AC, DC, DCC or DCS.
riogrande5761,Seriously? Caveat emptor? The LHS should sell incompatible equipment just to make a buck? Without question or suggesting a working alternative? Thanks, but I'd rather have my retailer point out when I'm making a potentially expensive mistake rather than waiting for me to fail.
We used to have a hobby shop within a reasonable distance but it bit the dust like so many others. When I first got into the hobby I purchased everything through the hobby shop. I chose to support it despite the fact that I could have done things cheaper on line. The shop was operated by a husband and wife team. She was wonderful. He was a complete jerk. One day I made the mistake of telling him that I had found another source for 1.5v lightbulbs. My intent was to explain to him that now that I was saving a few dollars on light bulbs I would have more money to spend in his store. I never got the words out. What he said to me was one of the most humiliating and insulting things that I had ever heard. I was shocked. Needless to say I never went back.
I spent a long time in retail. Selling a customer what they need as opposed to what they want is an art. Those retailers who don't understand how to finesse a customer simply lose out. I'm not talking about taking advantage of people. Those who make their livings doing that are the scum of the earth. I'm talking about how to make your customer satisfied so they will come back time and again, and bring their friends. The OP's experience is unfortunate and I don't know the details, but I can say absolutely that if the customer reacted so strongly to so few words, they were the wrong words.
Of course, you can't win them all.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Obviously the hobby shop in Mineola which I have been to pushed the OP's button not the other way around. But are you sure it isn't just the New Yorker coming out in him? NYers are not known for patience and I being one have to learn to adapt.
For example my oldest brother passed away overseas recently (RIP Sam) and I stopped at a local funeral home to pick up a 7 day candle . When I asked the owner how much he charged for the first item he snapped at me 10 million dollar. My first thought was what a Jerk but I just said Thank you and walked away.
Joe Staten Island West
Having read the OP's account of the event closer, I think there is a greater than 50% chance that the old schooler didn't know the answer to the question and quickly blurted out a response that defended his ignorance.....by going a level higher and questioning the customer's intentions. If he knew the answer, he could have just said "no, they're incompatible".
But storming out is not really helpful. I agree with most here, that hobby shop owners or employees can be rude know it alls who want to establish a position of expertise whenever they talk to a customer....and get even ruder if they can't answer a question. I try to ignore their personality. After all, I'm there to accomplish my mission of finding the merchandise I want in the time frame and price range I want.
If I have to wade through someone's personality to get the stuff I want, well, mission accomplished in the end. Besides, in the back and forth, I might learn something too.
THIS is how you control turnouts.
ROAR
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Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS