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Using a Fallen Flag for a Modern Freelance Railroad?

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Posted by Jimmy_Braum on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 9:32 AM

SouthPenn

The Southern Pennsylvania,( South Penn ), was a railroad that almost was. It ran from Harrisburg Pa to Pittsburg Pa. Tunnels were dug and the right of way cleared and graded. But the only track laid was for construction. The project was abandoned circa 1901.

My version of the South Penn was completed from Harrisburg to Pittsburg but has rights on the Blacklog/Tuscarora railroad that runs from Port Royal to Burnt Cabins. In Port Royal the Blacklog RR interchanges with the Pennsylvania RR. ( The Tuscarora was an actual railroad that was abandoned in 1920s ) The Tuscarora was bought/reorganised and renamed the Blacklog railroad. In Neelyton, the Blacklog interchanges with the East Broad Top.

So it's possible to see the South Penn, Blacklog, Tuscarora, East Broad Top ( the EBT now has standard gauge Diesels), and the Pennsylvania running on my layout.

Prototypical, no. But I am having fun.

 

First off, do you have a website with photos or videos of your layout? sounds fascinating.

To the OP; I do freelanced and a prototype at once. 

My freelanced rosters a fleet of four axle EMD switchers, two SD40-2 units for a coal drag, a pair of F40PH units for the business car train, and one U30B unit for MOW service.  When I build for this one, it will be a portable modular layout located around an industrial park.

My prototype will be the Wheeling and Lake Erie East end (Rook to Connelsville).  I currently roster a fleet of:

11 Wheeling units,


20ish Wheeling hoppers,

a WE boxcar,

a Gunderson 60ft boxcar,

Three 50ft post exterior boxcars for closetmaid and interchange at Connelsville

Wheeling and lake erie theater car 1990

A Wheeling gondola and enough scale train tank cars to model the first LNG train to Clairton (10 cars). 

My point is, you can do both real and a fictional railroad at once.  It gets thrown around a lot but

"Your railroad, your rules".

(My Model Railroad, My Rules) 

These are the opinions of a 25 year old, from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway.  As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).

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Posted by yougottawanta on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 11:19 AM

Ed - Henry wrote "There is nothing wrong with Freelancing.  You get to pick the motive power the paint schemes and the geography.  It doesn't have to meet anyone else's standards.  Nor is there anything wrong with sticking to prototypical.  It's your railroad, you make the rules."

I agree with this. It is about fun. Do waht makes you happy. Enjoy the RR trip !

YGW

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Posted by jk10 on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 8:56 PM

It's likely been said already, but nothing wrong with taking inspiration from the prototype and incorporating it into a freelanced railroad. Ideally, when I have the space and time, I'll do more with my freelanced railroad, the Erris & Spears, named after the area my relatives in Ireland live and a family name. It has a nice ring to it for a railroad, I think. In the mean time, the layout I have an idea for will be a mix of my hometown and what it used to be several years ago. In the meantime, I'll use a few different railroads until I can get into painting and creating the freelanced piece. Use and modify what you like from the prototype to create your own unique railroad. Have fun with it, there's no right or wrong when it's your creation. 

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Posted by ricktrains4824 on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:14 PM

Well, I have a former PRR Alco, back in PRR paint, and number, operating as a "heritage" unit, and a "freelance heritage" unit, a ES44AC in EL paint. 

Story is that both are owned by my freelance road, which runs on some former PRR and some former EL tracks, as well as a freelance "what if" line. (I model a segment of the "what if" portion.)

The rest of my freelance motive power will be in the freelanced road colors, which is currently still being debated.

Prototype roads interchange with, and run through, this line, as well, allowing me to run NS, and two other area shortlines. 

Speaking of prototypes: The Western New York & Pennsylvania Railroad, known for their Alco power, is the second iteration of that railroad... The original Western New York & Pennsylvania Railway (yes, railway this time.) was created in the late 1880's, was bought out, and disappeared into the PRR early in the 1900's. The new Western New York & Pennsylvania Railroad (railroad this time.) was created in 2001, and, ironically, now (since 2007) runs a line that was, originally, the Western New York & Pennsylvania Railway line, from Olean NY to Emporium PA.

Yes, there really is a prototype for everything!

Ricky W.

HO scale Proto-freelancer.

My Railroad rules:

1: It's my railroad, my rules.

2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.

3: Any objections, consult above rules.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, February 02, 2017 8:21 AM

K_Frazier

Has anyone done this? If so, I would be interested in the backstory if you have one. Are there any prototypical examples of this happening or are there rules against this. The railroad I'm thinking about was abandoned in 1982.

Thanks.

There is a guy on TrainOrders who is building a large layout based on Penn Central but in the modern age.  His is quite an ambitious layout.

 

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:41 AM

jmbjmb

One other thought.  The Southern operated a dang near incestous mix of other railroads that sometimes used Southern paint schemes, but their own name (Carolina and Northwestern for example) or used Southern equipment.  My home town had a railroad line that was leased by the SR and operated using SR equipment.  As best I can figure out, it never owned a single piece of rolling stock so as far as railroad ops are concerned, it was just another SR branch.  Yet it was technically a separate railroad.

jim

 
Generally that happens when one railroad buys a controlling interest (i.e., enough shares of stock to be able to vote to do whatever it wants) rather than just buying another railroad outright. Often the railroad that being taken over will lease themselves to the other railroad for say 99 years or whatever. In that situation, the railroad being taken over continues to exist on paper, and normally their equipment will be repainted into the other railroad's paint scheme, but with sublettering on engines to indicate it's technically owned by the railroad that was taken over. (Plus of course, the reporting marks of the railroad being taken over can continue to be used, even if say a boxcar is otherwise repainted into the paint scheme of the other railroad.) Until 1957 the Omaha Road (Chicago St.Paul Minneapolis and Omaha RR) was being leased by Chicago & NorthWestern, going back to the 19th century. What at first appeared to be CNW engines would have "C St.P M & O" initials on them, even though they were green and yellow and had the CNW 'ball and bar' herald; freight cars would be painted with CNW slogans but still had "CMO" reporting marks.
 
Even if one railroad buys another outright, sometimes for legal reasons they have to keep a separation of some type. Often that occured when a railroad still had active trusts / mortgages that were being used to pay off equipment. Even into the 1980's you could see high-nose EMD GP-9s on the Soo Line that had a small "WC" on the short nose indicating this was an (old) Wisconsin Central engine. (Plus Soo used a different numbering scheme for WC engines.)
 
 
Stix
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Posted by GimpLizard on Friday, February 03, 2017 5:23 AM

I'm not sure this is exactly what you had in mind, but the Chicago & Northwestern once had a line running from Kenosha WI to Rockford IL, called The KD Line. It was abandoned, in sections, during the 50's & 60's. I've toyed with the idea of "reviving" it using cast-off C&NW power.

I have a book on it (titled "The KD Line") written by P.L Behrans back in the 80's. He also wrote a book, titled "Steam Trains to Geneva Lake: C&NW's Elgin - Williams Bay Branch". The Geneva Lake branch, which was finally torn up in the early 80's, crossed the KD Line in the town where I live, Genoa City WI.

Interesting side note; the last train up the Geneva branch was a string of cabooses. The were turned into the End of the Line Caboose Motel, which still operates in Lake Geneva WI. (https://www.facebook.com/pages/End-of-the-Line-Caboose-Motel/164382643728338 - http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMKVH1_End_of_the_Line_caboose_rentals_Lake_Geneva_WI)

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Posted by Lonnie Utah on Friday, February 03, 2017 7:39 AM

BRAKIE
There is a prototype example.. The Wheeling & Lake Erie (WE) uses the old Wheeling & Lake Erie (W&LE) name and runs over most of the former W&LE trackage. When NS spun off the old W&LE they allowed the new owners to use W&LE recording mark WE.

 

The Cladwell Country Railroad in NC uses old SCL trains and runs on track prviously operated by the Southern Railway. 

 

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Posted by E-L man tom on Friday, February 03, 2017 1:27 PM

My version is based on a fictitious segment of the N & W Railroad that was going to be abandoned by them but the businesses along the line collectively purchased it and formed their own railroad. Set in the '70's, the line interchanges cars with the Chessie System and the Erie Lackawanna. This would be early Conrail days. I have posted the "history" of the Toledo Erie Central RR several times on this forum.  

Tom Modeling the free-lanced Toledo Erie Central switching layout.
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Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Friday, February 03, 2017 5:03 PM
It's a great idea. Wisconsin Central, after all, just took an old name and bought up cast off portions of the Soo Line. My Bayfield Transfer Railway is the name of a shortline that died in 1924, and I'm pretending that we bought up old CNW trackage in the UP of Michigan, rather like WC.

Michael Mornard

Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!

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Posted by jk10 on Friday, February 03, 2017 10:10 PM

Really like the sounds of your freelanced layout. I've taken a fondness for the WC now that I've been doing more research about what was in the area of my hometown. Although it was only CNW, now UP, the WC wasn't running too far away. On my Erris & Spears, it'll be mostly WC, CNW, and UP running around with some other stuff mixed in for fun. Do you by chance have any photos of your layout?

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Posted by xboxtravis7992 on Monday, May 01, 2017 12:09 PM

K_Frazier

I really appreciate everyone's replies. For those who may be interested here is a link to the railroad I was looking at, The Tooele Valley Railway.

As I began writing my backstory I thought that it flowed better by not using that name. This railroad will be an industrial switching railroad switching a single industrial depot (park). The layout will be HO scale on a 10x10 foot "L" built in sections. Trackplan is still under development. Construction will begin in the spring when the North Dakota weather warms so I can work outside.  

Here is my backstory so far and subject to change:

In 1993 following the closure of the Tooele Army Depot part of the base was transferred to the city of Tooele and subsequently sold to a commercial developer. Union Pacific (UP) railroad was approached by the developer to provide rail service to the new industrial depot. Following an onsite inspection of the property, UP declines, citing substandard track and excessive costs to repair. The depot continues to operate without rail service going through several ownership changes.

In 2016 the K Frazier Railroad Group (KFRG) strikes a deal with the current owner to build a railcar repair facility and provide rail service for the depot with construction scheduled to begin early spring 2017. In January 2017 KFRG buys the property outright. 

 

 

I grew up in Tooele. The TV was a fallen flag before I was born, but I still have a fascination with the line although I never saw it in action. I just bought an SW1200 I will convert into the TV scheme, and although I want to build a proper TV layout sometime the current layout I am building is also an industrial park (modified West Deerfield design). I am getting a chuckle both our plans are so similar! Big Smile I am curious to see what you come up with, especially how you will go about painting the engine for your line. I have seen some SD45's in G-Scale given the TV paint, but never a proper SW1200 or SW900 like the prototype had.

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Posted by NNJRailfan on Thursday, May 04, 2017 1:40 PM

A New Jersey shortline, the Rahway Valley Railroad, ran in my area until it was abandoned in 1992.  In the early 2000s, the NJ Department of Transportation investigated resurrecting service on parts of the railroad and started to upgrade the trackage.  Eventually the funding and desire for the project dried up which, along with a little financial mismanagement and significant residential opposition, killed the project.  My layout is based on the "what if" scenario that the project was succesfully completed and service to area businesses resumed.  On that basis I can use old locos and rolling stock (perhaps heavily weathered with the original name nearly obliterated) and new ones as well (rebranded or not).  I also have an excuse to model only select branches (the others were torn up and sold to developers, which was a reality), and tear down/remodel businesses along the right-of-way.

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Posted by caldreamer on Thursday, May 04, 2017 3:11 PM

I proto- freelance.  I model the BNSF in northen California up to Klamath Falls, Oregon.  Since the BNSF only ran down to Keddie and had to use UP (YUCK!!!) tracks, we bided our time.  When the UP/SP/WP mergers screwed things up so badly the STB awarded the UP tracks from Keddie to Sacramento to the BNSF, allowing the BNSF direct access from the pacific northwest and northern plains down through Sacramento to Stockton and west to Richmond..

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, May 05, 2017 8:26 AM

Keep in mind that although there are limitations in what a real railroad could do in trying to "recreate" an old railroad, there are a lot of things that legally could be done. You couldn't start a new "Chicago Milwaukee & St.Paul" or "Chicago Milwaukee St.Paul & Pacific", because those names and associated reporting marks are owned by Canadian Pacific now. However, they don't own the city of Milwaukee. You could create a new railroad called say "Milwaukee and Western" that used orange and black (or orange and gray, or orange and maroon) diesels with large "MILWAUKEE" lettering. You couldn't use the old Milwaukee Road herald, but you could have a herald saying something like "Milwaukee & Western" or "Milwaukee Line" that somewhat resembled the old Milwaukee Road's herald.

That's pretty similar to what Progressive Rail did in the Twin Cities, when it took over operations of the former Minneapolis Northfield and Southern line from CP. Their diesels are painted in a very similar paintscheme to the MN&S - some in fact are former MN&S engines - and you have to look closely to see that their diamond-shaped herald isn't the old MN&S one.

Stix
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Posted by caldreamer on Friday, May 05, 2017 11:12 AM

Talking abourt railroads that have equipment lettered for railroads that they purchased or leased.  The BNSf still has quite a number of locomotives painted in ATSF and BN paint schemes, some with and withour BNSF sub lettering.

ACY
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Posted by ACY on Friday, May 05, 2017 1:37 PM

The South Penn was projected to run from the Pittsburgh area to the Harrisburg area in the 1880's as a plan by the New York Central to compete with the Pennsylvania Railroad. Andrew Carnegie supported the plan because of his displeasure with the PRR. After the line was surveyed, several tunnels drilled, and many miles of right of way graded, the project was abandoned when Carnegie came to an accommodation with the PRR, undercutting the NYC's efforts and investments. That was Carnegie at his finest. Pirate

 

Later, parts of the right of way were used by the Pittsburgh Westmoreland & Somerset (including the South Penn's Quemahoning Tunnel), and by at least one small logger. 

In the 1930's, the basic alignment was used to construct the Pennsylvania Turnpike, although there was significant deviation from the original right of way in many locations. The Quemahoning Tunnel was bypassed and partially daylighted, but the other tunnels were re-bored and used for the highway. Several have been bypassed in more recent years.

The South Penn has been the subject of several model railroads of the past and present, representing several different eras. I have a friend who models it as he imagines it being operated by the NYC in the 1950's.

The South Penn had more favorable grades than the parallel PRR, so many people have wondered how things would have turned out if it had been built.

Tom 

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Posted by dinwitty on Friday, May 05, 2017 9:14 PM
I am modeling the 50's, the N&W is part of my plans, I have some HOn3 stuff, I have a book on 3 foot gauge railroads and there were 3 foot lines crossing the N&W but were abandoned early or perhaps standard gauged. My idea is to "de-abandon" one of the lines and even have some new power on the line 50's steam style. aside from this...the Indiana Railroad was an interurban line but the new Indiana Railroad is not associated with the interurban. For a railroad without any equipment, the Kensington and Eastern was only a connecting line between the the South Shore in Indiana and the Illinois Central. NICTD has since purchased out this line.
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Posted by BMMECNYC on Monday, May 08, 2017 8:05 PM

Providence and Worcester fits the bill as a fallenflag.  Present day too.  Got assimilated by the borg..

Rule 108: In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken.
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Posted by Canalligators on Monday, May 08, 2017 10:09 PM

Water Level Route
a modern era New York Central with the premise that the merger with the Pennsylvania was never approved and both railroads survived their financial issues of the era

You could even go back one step and presume that the original merger with the C&O happened in the late 50s, and project that into today.

Genesee Terminal, freelanced HO in Upstate NY

...hosting Loon Bay Transit Authority

CP/D&H, N scale somewhere on the Canadian Shield

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Posted by Canalligators on Monday, May 08, 2017 10:15 PM

I'm bending reality in a little different way.  My road interchanged with Conrail in upstate New York.  Conrail still exists with two "shared use" areas, in New Jersey and Detroit.  I just presume (pretend) that they kept a third shared use area, and I interchange with that bit.

Genesee Terminal, freelanced HO in Upstate NY

...hosting Loon Bay Transit Authority

CP/D&H, N scale somewhere on the Canadian Shield

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, May 09, 2017 8:56 AM

My Columbus & Hocking Valley is named after Columbus,Toledo & Hocking Valley or Hocking Valley for short. I shorten the name to Columbus & Hocking Valley.

Larry

SSRy

Conductor

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Tuesday, May 09, 2017 4:17 PM

Canalligators
Conrail still exists with two "shared use" areas, in New Jersey and Detroit.

Technically New Jersey is split into 2 shared assets areas (North Jersey and South Jersey/Philadelphia).   So it is 3, albiet two of them are very close to one another.

Rule 108: In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken.
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Posted by BMMECNYC on Tuesday, May 09, 2017 4:25 PM
Rule 108: In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken.
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Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 4:59 PM

It's a great idea.  Considering how many small lines there were, nobody should ever have to make up a railroad name.

 

The "Ashland, Odana and Marengo" was a real railroad, and, for that matter, so was the "Bayfield Transfer Railway."

 

Michael Mornard

Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!

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Posted by jk10 on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 10:29 PM

wjstix

Keep in mind that although there are limitations in what a real railroad could do in trying to "recreate" an old railroad, there are a lot of things that legally could be done. You couldn't start a new "Chicago Milwaukee & St.Paul" or "Chicago Milwaukee St.Paul & Pacific", because those names and associated reporting marks are owned by Canadian Pacific now. However, they don't own the city of Milwaukee. You could create a new railroad called say "Milwaukee and Western" that used orange and black (or orange and gray, or orange and maroon) diesels with large "MILWAUKEE" lettering. You couldn't use the old Milwaukee Road herald, but you could have a herald saying something like "Milwaukee & Western" or "Milwaukee Line" that somewhat resembled the old Milwaukee Road's herald.

That's pretty similar to what Progressive Rail did in the Twin Cities, when it took over operations of the former Minneapolis Northfield and Southern line from CP. Their diesels are painted in a very similar paintscheme to the MN&S - some in fact are former MN&S engines - and you have to look closely to see that their diamond-shaped herald isn't the old MN&S one.

 
I crossover the Progressive Rail Lakeville to Northfield track every day, only a few times have I been lucky enough to catch the daily train shuttling through. Each time, it has been two leaser units leading the train, though. Progressive Rail has one of their SW1500s and another leaser working Rosemount to Eagan, though. I recently purchased one of the MN&S SD39s to use. Love the resurrection of the paint scheme at least, and the fact that Progressive is using the old MN&S lines. 
 
 
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Posted by Enzoamps on Friday, May 12, 2017 12:38 AM

While my main interest is the age of F7s and GP7s, as a B&O fan of close to 70 years, I have no trouble at all imagining the great blue and gray B&O colors on an SD70, as if the B&O never evaporated into CSX.  If you want to do that, don't let anyone tell you you shouldn;t want it.   The only thing wrong with it is that it doesn't fit someone else's modelling agenda.  Make yourself happy.

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Posted by caldreamer on Friday, May 12, 2017 8:13 AM

Enzomps, you are exactly right.  I have painted two SD9043MAC's in BNSF premium paint schecme and have other painted locomotives that ATSF, BN and BNSF never had.  I like the engines so I painted them up.  RULE 1: Its my railroad.  RULE 2: When in doubt refer to rule 1.  RULE 3: I am having a happy childhood playing with my choo choos.

 

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Posted by hlwaaser on Wednesday, May 17, 2017 8:29 PM

Thanks for that "more".  That means my Pennsylvania / New York Border Railroad could run used PRR or NYC power with a "Penny Line" about the number, while still wearing the original lettering in the original location.

 

hlwaaser; The Penny Line

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