I was visiting a freinds HO layout that is really large and very well detailed. After spending about 2 hours watching him and a few others operating his layout I was amazed to see that he uses nothing but horn hook couplers.
He refuses to use KD's or something similar. He just don't like them.
His layout runs smooth, looks great and you don't even notice the horn hooks until they pointed them out.
What are your thoughts.
They work alright, they look like the south end of a northbound donkey. To each their own in this hobby, but my horn hooks are a distant and ugly memory.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Did your friend say why he doesn't like Kadee couplers??? Horn-hook couplers work fine. They just don't look very realistic when uncoupled.
I primarily use Kadee #58s & #158s on my rolling stock; liking and preferring the more prototypical-looking couplers over the #5s. And I've never had operational problems with the Kadees, either, so I'd be curious to find out what your friend's issues are with them.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
David,Horn Hooks (X2F) coupler works quite well when properly mounted.They was needed far more then the majority realizes simply because every manufacturer had their line of couplers that was completely incompatible with other couplers..While it is true KD was around very few modelers would buy them-why buy KD when the X2F works perfectly well was the question of the time. Best to buy Central Valley trucks so,your freight cars can roll more freely..
A lot of modelers judges the X2F but,those nasty truck mounted X2Fs.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
He says the horn hooks look and operate better then any KD, I could argue with him about that but hey it is his trains and layout.
On the bright side when he gets a new car I get the knuckle couplers. I never knew he ran with horn hooks until I saw his layout. I just thought he was giving me his extras but now I know.
To each his own I suppose.
Early on my first layout had dummy knuckle couplers, no "automatic" coupling or uncoupling. Dummy couplers were actually supplied in many kits back in the late 50's and 60's - Varney, Roundhouse, Walthers and others. But even at age 12 I knew Kadee was the way I wanted to go, and did so quickly.
But we all have our preferences......I will not use the semi scale couplers from Kadee or any of the clones.
They may look a little better, but I have found a number of slight operational short comings with them.
They take more force to couple, especially when coupling to a "regular" Kadee.
They have just as much, or possibly a little more slack action, a serious factor for someone like me pulling long trains - 50 cars and up at times.
They are just now becoming available in all the shank configurations - a real issue for my 200 passenger cars with working diaphrams.
They have a smaller side to side "gathering range" meaning that on NMRA standard track, and depending on the play in some truck sideframes, they can miss even when coupling on straight track.
Being already heavily invested in the regular Kadee couplers for nearly 1200 pieces of rollling stick, and not really being happy with how the semi scale couplers interact with the regular coupler, I'll stay with the regular ones.
Sheldon
David:
Talgos are horrible, whether they be knuckle couplers or X2f's, because they contribute to derailments in reverse moves, especially on curves. I've found body mounted couplers to be the most important factor. I've had more reverse-move derailment issues in the past with X2f's than with any kind of knuckle coupler. If your friend's experience is different, and he is happy, then who am I to say he's wrong? You can enjoy the benefit of getting those free surplus knuckle couplers when he offers them. I prefer Kadee K58's and equivalent, or 711/714's when they fit better, because I like their performance and appearance.
It just depends on how your friend likes to run his railroad. As long as he is not interested in operation including uncoupling and coupling as well as reverse moves, the horn hooks and Talgo trucks will work fine.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
If you guys think horn hooks (X2f/NMRA) look bad....remember the older Baker loop and hook couplers. John Allen who was literally light years ahead of most of us in just about every aspect of the hobby, used Baker couplers right up until his death in 1973.
HZ
It will be a cold day in the roundhouse when I give up my Kadee couplers. As Sheldon points out, when you get to 50+ car trains you start to see the shortcomings of the X2F. I often run 18 car passenger trains and 60 car freights, and had at one time, run a 90 car freight, up and down 1.5% grades.
I actually enjoy seeing the slack-action when I'm starting a train. If the room is quiet, I can even hear the slight click of each knuckle engaging when the engines, sometimes out of sight, begin making their pull and as I watch from above I can see the slack running out one-car-at-a-time.
Some folks are just more comfortable with the old ways. I had a friend, worked forty years on P-C, Conrail, CSX. Every two weeks he'd take his paycheck to the bar, walk out with an envelope stuffed with cash, then walk across the street to the Post Office where he bought a dozen or so Postal Money Orders to pay the utility bills and mortgage. Darn banks will rob you blind, he said. I don't know what he is doing today with all the electronic transfers and such.
So, speaking of couplers, what's up with Broadway Limited?
When I got the Baldwin Sharknose engines they came with hook and loop metal couplers installed! They were a real pain to change-out, too.
Yesterday, the Broadway P-70s arrived and they included these things...
They are made of "slippery engineering plastic" and, fortunately were included in a bag and not installed.
I wonder just what Mr. Grubba is thinking?
Have Fun! Ed
Mine would work fine pulling. Issues when in reverse direction, many times. They would have never worked with my unprototypical thirty NYC Pacemaker freight. Pacemaker freights were usually about seventy freight cars. lol
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
gmpullman...When I got the Baldwin Sharknose engines they came with hook and loop metal couplers installed! They were a real pain to change-out, too....
Hmmm. So everything equipped with them has a front- and a back end. If you set-up your Sharks to run back-to-back, you'd need to re-do the couplers on one of them if you opted one day to run them elephant style. And in that case, if they were normally used to pull the P-70s, all of those cars would need to be turned around. What a great idea!
I started in HO in the mid-50s, using Kadee's K-type couplers with mechanical uncoupling. I never cared for the look of that "air hose" on the Magnematics but eventually had to give in to them. I do use some of Kadee's scale couplers, but if I were to ever opt for another type, it would be Sergents, but on a much smaller roster of locomotives and rolling stock.
Wayne
G Paine It just depends on how your friend likes to run his railroad. As long as he is not interested in operation including uncoupling and coupling as well as reverse moves, the horn hooks and Talgo trucks will work fine.
Another misinformed modeler that doesn't realize we operated with X2F couplers.Doug Smith wrote his car card /waybill form of switching article in 1960/61 IIRC. My first switching layouts used X2F couplers.When the Columbus HO club went KD couplers in '68 I converted my club cars to KD but,continued to use X2F at home. I didn't go 100% KD until I got out of the Army in 77 and built my first ISL.
We never has a problem with switching long cut of cars equipped with X2F couplers.
Why is that?
Like everything else back then we had tricks of the trade to make it work better and the main trick was mounting those couplers where then would work smoothly and couple each and every time without fail.
With a modelers rat tale file in hand we would slightly rime out the mouthing hole by doing this the coupler movement was greatly improved and making reverse moves was easy..
Even back then we hated Talgo trucks and would change them to body mounts.
doctorwayneHmmm. So everything equipped with them has a front- and a back end. If you set-up your Sharks to run back-to-back, you'd need to re-do the couplers on one of them if you opted one day to run them elephant style.
Yes! And in my case I bought an extra B unit so I had mis-matched (two eyes and only one tongue) drawbars.
The drawbar screw comes down from the top so you have to remove the shell to replace the coupler!
Pretty elaborate setup, wouldn't you agree, Wayne?
Here's what it looks like after Kadeeizing...
That swing-bracket was very roughly stamped, to boot. Quite a bit of filing was required to allow it to swing smoothly. It has a dog-bone type setup to allow the drawbar to "grow" on curves. Good idea but they needed a little more finesse in the execution.
I thought BLI learned the error of their ways so I was surprized to see those tab & eye "couplers" provided with the P-70s! Even the LGB hook & loop coupler allows you to couple either end of the car. These things you would have to orient every car the same direction! Again, what were they thinking?
Regards, Ed
My goodness Ed,I don't believe BLI would use such a Kimchi rigged whatever on a $400.00 locomotive set.Reminds me of those so called couplers of the 50s like the loop and hook.
Interesting that the OP never said that his friend used talgo trucks just horn hooks so could a lot of the issues have to do with talgos?
Joe Staten Island West
This topic seems like it was posted to throw a cat among the pigeons considering how universal is the preference of the KD standard. There is no need to defend KDs against horn hooks. I hated horn hooks as a teen; it was only cost and ignorance that prevented me from converting back then.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I can´t comment on the X2F couplers, but I always envied the US model railroaders having prototypical looking couplers available when converting their stock to KD´s. In Europe we still are miles away from that, having to rely on bulky, awkward looking contraptions.
joe323 Interesting that the OP never said that his friend used talgo trucks just horn hooks so could a lot of the issues have to do with talgos?
Absolutely that and improper mounting would cause headaches just like a improper mounted KD causes issues.Also what the so called "experts" wrote in magazines not realizing how well the X2F could and did work doesn't help modelers understand that we used the X2F for years before the KD coupler became the defacto standard.
What's laughable is those that think operation wasn't possible with X2F couplers yet,prototypical operation been around for at least 60 years..
BTW.Using a bamboo skewer to uncouple cars isn't a new idea since many of us used a small flat tip screwdriver to uncouple X2F couplers.The screwdriver gave way to the bamboo stick.
riogrande5761 This topic seems like it was posted to throw a cat among the pigeons considering how universal is the preference of the KD standard.
This topic seems like it was posted to throw a cat among the pigeons considering how universal is the preference of the KD standard.
An interesting observation, Jim.
Alton Junction
Sir Madog I can´t comment on the X2F couplers, but I alsways envied the US model railroaders having prototypical looking couplers available when converting their stock to KD´s. In Europe we still are miles away from that, having to rely on bulky, awkward looking contraptions.
I can´t comment on the X2F couplers, but I alsways envied the US model railroaders having prototypical looking couplers available when converting their stock to KD´s. In Europe we still are miles away from that, having to rely on bulky, awkward looking contraptions.
During my four long summers in Germany in the 1990s I watched and examined trains at every oportunity. From what I recall they all used a hook and eye coupler system which makes it difficult to model with an automatic coupler. It dosnt seem possibe to make an HO version of that so unless Europe adopts a US knuckle coupler system, I dont see how things will ever change or ever catch up.
riogrande5761 This topic seems like it was posted to throw a cat among the pigeons considering how universal is the preference of the KD standard. There is no need to defend KDs against horn hooks. I hated horn hooks as a teen; it was only cost and ignorance that prevented me from converting back then.
Not quite Jim.David asked a valid question since he saw how well those bad X2F couplers works and that goes against the things he has heard and read about the X2F.
For me its a question about old school modeling and not so much about throwing a cat among the pigeons.
Larry. This is a topic you and I, and probably quite a few a others, will have to agree to disgree on. Regarding horn hooks, you are among a small number of voices crying in the wilderness. Yes horn hooks are really that bad. The industry appears to verify since they dropped them like a hot potato as soon as the KD patent expired. That speaks volumes.
With all this talk of couplers, I'm really surprised..no one mentioned the Mantua couplers.....rather unsightly looking, but they actually worked fairly well. Had a lot of those, before I even had horn-hook.....Must be an age thing Huh! They even have some for sale on e-bay...LOL.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/302046682918?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
Take Care!
Frank
riogrande5761 Larry. This is a topic you and I, and probably quite a few a others, will have to agree to disgree on. Regarding horn hooks, you are among a small number of voices crying in the wilderness. Yes horn hooks are really that bad. The industry appears to verify since they dropped them like a hot potato as soon as the KD patent expired. That speaks volumes.
Jim,Old heads like me knows and understands how well they worked and how bad they worked will depend on one's lack of knowledge on how to make those couplers work.
Sorry Jim,a lot of you young folks would have not made it in the 50/60s since one had to have a degree in tinkering just to get the best out of what we had. Even a Athearn car kit took more TLC to build then a Roundhouse car kit and there laid one of the traps for the X2F or KD coupler.
And by the way,Walthers still sells the X2F.
https://www.walthers.com/horn-hook-couplers-x-2f-pkg-12
It's Kadee for me .
Russell
riogrande5761During my four long summers in Germany in the 1990s I watched and examined trains at every oportunity. From what I recall they all used a hook and eye coupler system which makes it difficult to model with an automatic coupler. It dosnt seem possibe to make an HO version of that so unless Europe adopts a US knuckle coupler system, I dont see how things will ever change or ever catch up.
It´s really hard to believe that with all those really advanced rail technology available in Europe, the railroads could not agree upon a common automatic coupling system in over 150 years! We are still on the same old screw/link coupling established in the 1850´s!
BRAKIE David,Horn Hooks (X2F) coupler works quite well when properly mounted.They was needed far more then the majority realizes simply because every manufacturer had their line of couplers that was completely incompatible with other couplers..While it is true KD was around very few modelers would buy them-why buy KD when the X2F works perfectly well was the question of the time. Best to buy Central Valley trucks so,your freight cars can roll more freely.. A lot of modelers judges the X2F but,those nasty truck mounted X2Fs.
A long, long time ago in MR, a letter to the editor said something like this too. His point was that a lot of the X2F couplers in train sets were poorly cast, which caused a lot of problems. The best examples of the horn hook from higher quality equipment were unceremoniously tossed in the trash in favor of Kadees. While I'm sure this and your point about proper mounting are true, the X2F is still best suited for continuous running, and not "real" operation.
Horn hooks are fine, as are plastic wheels, btw. They both work just fine for many realistically operating layouts.
Realism? Anything sharper than a 60 inch radius curve in HO scale looks unrealistic to me anyway, so everybody has their tolerance for compromise. I don't look at couplers when running trains either, even when switching.
But I think the key for smooth operations for normal-length cars is to have body mounted couplers.
- Douglas
He has perfected his x2f's to work for him. Number one they are all body mounted.
I saw on his layout making reverse moves and dropping off cars at industries around his layout without one derailment.
Although I used x2f's back in the 60's and 70's, when KD's came out I changed and never looked back.
One last word on this gentleman's layout, it is truly a scale layout with great scenery, detailed structures, hand laid track and switches and an operation scheme that keeps 3 guys busy. All I can say is that he must really like X2f's!
I'm glad I got the chance to see this wonderful layout and watch it perform flawlessly.