Hello folks--
Last topic drifted off a little bit, so I thought perhaps we could start fresh.
I just tonight completed selling off all my non-brass or non-brass-hybrid locomotives, because I simply prefer the detailing of brass, and the way they appear, painted, can be so much more "realistic" in appearance than plastic.
This may make me a relative "minority", but I also prefer the limited run nature of the brass models, that when I have one going down the track, I have something relatively unique that not everybody else has on their layout.
Some of Howard Zane's comments regarding the durability of brass models also factored into my decision to try to go all brass or hybrid. Thanks Howard.
Anyhow, have at the brass discussion folks.
John
Being in narrow gauge, (HOn3), has forced me into brass in a few instances. Outside of the superb metal K-27 and C-19s made by Blackstone, 100% of motive power is brass only. Old brass only.
Brass is, indeed, great and currently relatively inexpensive if you search about a bit among used offerings. Unfortunately, the DCC sound offerings of Blackstone spoil one horribly. Suffering under these fabulous two offerings, old brass presents only continued beauty in different, much desired loco's with less than satisfactory motors and no DCC or sound.
Adding the newest and best motors and sometimes gearing is about a $100.00 additional price tag on top of the brass price, with DCC and sound being another $100.00. Add to this the hassle of drilling holes in these beauties and installing the smallest of soundtraxx sound decoders and speaker is a real chore and, often, a trial.
So, for the HOn3 enthusiast who wants a K-28, K-36, or a nice old T or C class D&RGW loco or for that matter any other narrow gauge loco ever made, it is brass with a tough road to hoe in added costs and tedious updating to modern operational standards.
For my money and time it is worth the effort...just barely.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Good points Richard.
For myself, being a standard gauge steam fan without specific ties to any one railroad, I have the relative luxury of being able to pick and choose from the nicer, later models that are out there on the market. My goal is to find something with a great paint job, good gearbox(es), and a good motor, that I like the appearance of.
Then again, I don't want to pay too much, so am trying to split the difference between the very affordable earlier brass and the relatively expensive models of the last 10 to 15 years.
With two exceptions, my Japanese steam is all brass because that was the way those models were available when I acquired them. The same locos are still available, new, in brass, but at far higher prices.
I run analog DC, MZL control system. If I were to go DCC all but a few could accept a decoder (and a new can motor) without much problem. The tender locos and the larger tank locos (with big empty bunkers at rear) could also accept a speaker without significant grief. The smaller tank locos would have to retain their dolphins as members of The Silent Service, and TTT #60 (Hohenzollern 1873, from a Kawai kit) would still be the impossible dream for DCC.
#60, AKA 'the little block of lead,' is one of my two non-brass steamers, so it doesn't really enter this discussion. OTOH, it does have a brass frame and cylinders...
Going DCC with older brass, as my fellow narrow gauger has said, can be a PITA, but it is doable - if you want that particular locomotive that badly. OTOH, if someone would offer a good model of a D51 2-8-2, third or fourth series with the smoke deflector stack, at a reasonable price I wouldn't care if the kit (or RTR) was made with brass, plastic, cast zamac, galvanized steel or lacquered card stock. I WOULD care about its appearance, durability, functionality and pulling power...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Yeah I love it when topics go off message or are hijacked...."glad this was saved.
Brass is many things to many people. For me it is the inherent quality and knowing that most was handmade vs factory mass produced plastic or cast models in large runs. True some of the offerings coming from BLI, MTH, and a few select others are worthy of mention, then the value subject comes into play. A near mint simple USRA 2-8-2 in brass can be had on the used market in the $250-$350 range. A fairly new plastic or die cast counterpart today will cost about the same....but what happens to value later on? The mass produced model will fetch a fraction of what was paid for it; whereas the brass mike will most likey sell for original price, and some times a bit more if cared for and not wholesaled out to a dealer.
Many of us brass guys also see brass models as works of fine art and respect them as such. They are mostly handmade in limited runs by fine artisans from non-ferrous metal. I do play with mine as I insist on only the finest. To date I have never met a brass model that cannot be tweaked to near perfection, and many new brass models are indeed perfect in just about evey aspect.
In my train shop from 1973 to 1975 I ran a PFM K-4 8 hours per day on my 11' x 6' display layout. Simple math would put this at over 1000 hours. I did also run an AHM/Rivarossi IC 4-6-0 as they were new that year, and it ran great, but for about two weeks. The only problem I had with the K-4 was the plating eventually wore off of the drivers, but still it ran quite well.
Brass values have fallen in the last ten years, but this is due mainly to supply exceeding demand. Many of the guys who purchased large amounts of brass models in decades past are just not around anymore and many estates have been sold almost flooding the market. Of course the influx of new plastc and die cast have had an influence on folks who play with their trains, as most new brass winds up on some wealthy kabob's shelf, but still holding their value.
When I first got into buying and selling out of production brass in the mid-80's, through lines of credit from several banks, I could purchase large collections of brass models, and pay off completely the amount of the loan after the first month. During those years many of the models I had purchased actually increased in value while spending quality time in my inventory. What helped immensley, were the brass guides...first by Lenahan, then Ray Brown, John Glaab, and now Dan Glasure. Although subject to several opinions on accuracy, still there was and still is a guide (although now on line from Brasstrains. com). This has become the basis for determining value. Nothing like this exists for plastic and cast, so used values are what the market will bare.
I purchased my first brass loco in 1962 or 63 while in the military. It was a B&O Q4b from Akane. Price was $33.95 and I thought it was a bargain. Also the same year (1963), in Parumus, NJ at HiWay Hobby House on Rt 17, I almost purchased a PFM/Nakayama KCS 2-10-4 for $163.95, but on a junior officer's pay, my wife (never take your spouse to the brass shop) said a flat NO! This was a beautiful model and I thought it was well worth the price. This same model sold at auction in 1997 (Southebys in NY) for $28,000. Actually with buyer's premium and NYC sales tax, the bill came close to $32,000. Of course this is the extreme, but I feel it makes somewhat of a point.
Happy modeling,
HZ
Howard Zane Yeah I love it when topics go off message or are hijacked...."glad this was saved. Brass is many things to many people. For me it is the inherent quality and knowing that most was handmade vs factory mass produced plastic or cast models in large runs. True some of the offerings coming from BLI, MTH, and a few select others are worthy of mention, then the value subject comes into play. A near mint simple USRA 2-8-2 in brass can be had on the used market in the $250-$350 range. A fairly new plastic or die cast counterpart today will cost about the same....but what happens to value later on? The mass produced model will fetch a fraction of what was paid for it; whereas the brass mike will most likey sell for original price, and some times a bit more if cared for and not wholesaled out to a dealer. Many of us brass guys also see brass models as works of fine art and respect them as such. They are mostly handmade in limited runs by fine artisans from non-ferrous metal. I do play with mine as I insist on only the finest. To date I have never met a brass model that cannot be tweaked to near perfection, and many new brass models are indeed perfect in just about evey aspect.
Howard, nice to hear from you again on this topic, I had replied to your earlier posting that disappeared. Anyway.
I have come to enjoy working on the older models, but some of the NJCB models of anthracite road locomotives give me fits. In particular I have been working on this LV T-2 4-8-4 for almost a month, I've regeared it, added a torque arm, etc., but I just cannot seem to find the source of the slight hesitation at slow speed that you can see in the video below. I wonder if you have any diagnostic tips that you might share with me. I've requartered all the drivers and had every rod off multiple times to smooth out burrs, ream out the crankpin holes, etc. I am mystified at this point. I've had some folks on various brass forums helping me out at every step along the way, but I'm sort of stumped at this point, and I'm eager to move on to the dcc installation.
Anyway, any advice you can give would be appreciated.
Jim
Jim,
I cannot really tell from your video. From what I can see, the drivers still do not seemed to be quarted 100% (but quite close) and as you must know eccentric rod is not functioning. I can only see one side which makes diagnosis difficult at best.
I'm not a great fan of torque arms and universals, but I have had excellent results with surgical tubing as it can never hold a fixed shape and is completely flexible.
Is gearbox original? All of the locos on my layout have been converted to Faulhaber motors and BooRim gearboxes with incredibly good results.
Never use black rubber tubing as what most models come with or model airplane fuel line. They will hold a shape and poor running is guaranteed.
I do know an expert...most likely the best I have worked with in 50 years. I'd put his name and number down, but the moderator may construe this as advertising, so please give me a jingle and I pass on information to you. [Removed - Send PM for info].
I have owned both versions of T-2's and found them to be quite good and today's value of over $800 each confirms this. I'd guess yours can be made to run to perfection.
Howard, thanks so much for taking a look at that video. This has a new Boo-rim gearbox, and I tried to stay with the flexible tubing but without the torque arm there was just way too much wobble of the gearbox on the axis of the driveshaft (but it was fuel line and not surgical tubing, so I'll have to try that). Stayed with the original Sagami motor.
I'd appreciate the name of the person you have to work on locomotives, I'll try to give you a call over the weekend to get his contact info.
PRR8259 Hello folks-- Last topic drifted off a little bit, so I thought perhaps we could start fresh. I just tonight completed selling off all my non-brass or non-brass-hybrid locomotives, because I simply prefer the detailing of brass, and the way they appear, painted, can be so much more "realistic" in appearance than plastic. This may make me a relative "minority", but I also prefer the limited run nature of the brass models, that when I have one going down the track, I have something relatively unique that not everybody else has on their layout. Some of Howard Zane's comments regarding the durability of brass models also factored into my decision to try to go all brass or hybrid. Thanks Howard. Anyhow, have at the brass discussion folks. John
It occurred to me to come back to John's original point, I have to say I've been giving this a lot of thought lately (about the durability of brass/metals generally). I've been working on these brass locos for the past two years, and it seems to get easier with each one. But it does impress me that I can have the thing apart two or three dozen times to diagnose an issue, and it goes back together with nothing broken or bent in the process--and they get a fair amount of manhandling and bouncing around in the foam cradle.
I really can't say that about my plastic locos. I've done perhaps a dozen and a half DCC installs in various Bowser/Atlas/Proto etc. diesels, and in the process have bent the tabs holding the shell to the frame; broken off various stirrups, steps, and hand railings; and had any number of other things go wrong that are unrelated to the immediate task of doing the DCC install. Plastic models are, in comparison, pretty darn fragile, and it's taken me much more time to get to the point where I can guarantee a peaceful reassembly of a plastic diesel compared to an all-metal or brass steam locomotive. So I think that really speaks to the original point.
Note this isn't a pro-brass versus anti-plastic kind of thing. I love both, and I have to say some of my favorite steamers for running are the Trix Mikados and the Proto Heritage switchers. But in terms of the comfort factor for actually working on the guts of these things, I'd have to agree that in my (admittedly limited) experience, the brass locos really do seem easier to play with.
Incidentally, I think I figured out the hesitation on that loco I posted earlier--took each set of rods off (left and right) separately, turns out the issue was with the front driver rods. Even though I didn't feel any burrs or anything, I took both of them to a mill file and removed perhaps a couple of thousandths off the back of each one. Seems to have done the trick. And this after several weeks of off-and-on futzing around with the loco. But it's a nice feeling when you eventually do figure things out.
I lack the patience to completely disassemble and requarter steam power, etc. So I try to find "good ones", often test run them first, and don't mess with it if it isn't broken.
One of my friends who has done a lot of custom paint work for people prefers to stick to the brass for the reasons in Jim's post above. Some of the plastic models can be so delicate, and were not necessarily designed to be disassembled for painting, such that details can be easily damaged.
The brass models are a little more forgiving...if something is bent, it can often be very gently and carefully straightened. With some of the plastic, that is not necessarily the case.
I'm not trying to put down anybody who prefers the plastic steamers or the diecast and plastic steamers. Everyone is entitled to their particular taste.
Apparently, the Japanese brass builders saw nothing wrong with HOn3 narrow gauge in the late 50's 60's and 70's producing just about every narrow gauge engine of any stature found in the U.S. Several of the more popular N.G. engines had multiple runs in brass. Their efforts has sustained narrow gauge railroading over the years.
While the Blackstones are not brass they are at least all metal throughout and that has given a big shot in the arm to the HOn3 hobby. Metal, be it brass or steel or white metal can be made much sharper and detailed than many plastics.
The only plastic bodied HOn3 N.G. locos ever made, that I am aware of, are the two MDC kits of the 70's and 80's. One a D&RGW C-25 consol and the other a shay. Both were kit-bashed on a regular basis to make many special N.G. locos.
While modern plastics can be quite detailed, Brass is and will remain a factor in narrow gauge modeling for a long time to come.
I have finally decided to attempt to stick to "only" brass or perhaps some brass hybrid locomotives.
In the process of selling some recent non-brass steamers, my one BLI 2-8-0, one from the first run, with only maybe 10 hours on it, apparently experienced a split plastic gear on the drive axle, which cost me a partial refund to the buyer...anyhow, now I feel more justified than ever in my pursuit of becoming a "brass only" railroad.
Allegedly the second run of 2-8-0's has metal gears, but...
While I don't really run my HO brass anymore(home layout is Marklin 3 rail HO now) I do still pickup a model here and there. At recent show, I purchased a PFM/United late run B&O 2-8-0 that was pro painted and weathered in the late owners home road, also had PFM sound installed, for $100 bill with a perfect box. I then got the near mint PFM Mark 2 sound/throttle console for under $10. They were tired of lugging it around, it was in its original shipping carton with both pieces of shipping foam. I might throw down some track and run her one day. I also picked up a little Trains INC Alco S2 for under $100, I painted her for MD&W shortline that still runs a pair of them in almost daily service. Right now is the about the best market I have seen for buying brass, espicaly the earlier imports. I would buy a couple more models I have seen on a local dealers website, but my money just got spent on a G scale model that is live steam, an Accucraft Ruby with a custom built coal fired boiler, the model is mostly brass, stainles steel and copper! Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
My opinion on brass is mixed. For freight cars I surely don´t need brass, as good plastic models are existing with pretty much the same or even better level of detail. And the advantage of a freight train with plastic cars is that the locomotive doesn´t need to pull too much weight. Same reasons go for passenger cars, but I must admit that I prefer brass passenger cars although I have a problem of finding motive power which is able to handle so much weight. I have 13 passengers trains in my collection, and only 1 of them is a brass-only train. 2 others are made of die cast metal, 1 of aluminium and 1 of wood. Rest is made of plastic. My brass Soho Sunset Limited is by far my favorite one, and my very heavy all die cast metal Märklin/Trix Alco PA-1 A-A Unit with its 8 traction wheels has just enough tractive effort to pull it! I guess if it had only 1 unpowered axle less or only 1 traction tire less, it could not pull this brass train anymore. My MTH SP GS-4 has no chance to pull it. That´s why I decided to go for unprototypical plastic instead of correct brass models for my Golden State train. Simply because I know my GS-4 couldn´t pull more than 6 brass cars, but my Golden State must have 12 cars. So instead of purchasing beautiful Golden State brass cars, I made my very own custom painted plastic Golden State using Walthers, Rivarossi and IHC cars. The GS-4 will have no problems at all to pull it. So in this case, plastic was a better decision for me than brass, and in addition to that I have no problems with a train not being 100% prototypically correct as I´m already satisfied when it resembles the prototype a bit. When it comes to steam locomotives, I absolutely dislike plastic and only purchase plastic steamers if there is no other way. From my 9 steamers, only 3 are plastic, and that is only because 1 isn´t available in brass and the 2 other ones are heavily modified South American engines, and the reason for them being plastic is simply because the plastic steamers available came closer to the prototype than any other brass steamer (well, 1 has a die cast metal boiler and frame at least). Steam engines must be as much as possible die cast metal and/or brass for me, as plastic in my eyes is such an inapproriate material for these heavy solid originals. Same goes for diesel and electric locomotives: I prefer die cast metal and brass bodies, but I will not shy away from a plastic body if at least the frame is made of heavy die cast metal.
Enough of the talk about brass...lets talk about something else
Anyways, heres my 2 cents about brass.
Brass diesels - Not worth it. An Athearn genesis diesel DC costs about the same if not less, and it has a better paint job, just about as much detail, and a MUCH better mech. If you can buy a good plastic Diesel go for it. If the diesel you want is ONLY made in brass then buy the brass.
Brass steam - If you the kind of person that likes to tinker with engines, and is good with electionics, gears, etc, then brass is right for you.
If you are the kind of person who expect everything to run PERFECT out of the box, look nice and don't like to screw around with your engines, then you might not be a brass person.
If you are like the kind of person who likes to add detail to engines then plastic is the right kind for you. (Trust me, brass is hard to drill!)
I personally, am a plastics person. Why? Because Im cheap(sometimes TOO cheap), love tinkering with trains, and love to attempt to superdetail my engines.
Every model railroader has different tastes and preferences. They like different things in the MRR aspect. Some like to run for fun, some like to detail, some like to paint, some like to run with operation in mind, and some like to toy around with the mech and drive train. Some have a huge budget and some have a tiny one.
These factors will usally determine what kind of modeler you are.
:D
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
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It is indeed possible to find good brass steam that will run well right out of the box and not require additional adjustments: W&R/Samhongsa.
Some of the others, maybe not so much, but the W&R stuff runs well.
Back in the day, the PFM/United imports ran well right out of the box. You just had to add your choice of couplers. They will still will almost do this, but after this many years need a fresh round of lubrication before they are run much unless coming from someone that was running them prior to your purchase. Even then, a quick lube of the side rods and motor bearing is sometimes all thats needed. I will usualy rework a PFM with light machine oil on all bearings, fresh grease in the gear box and replacing the original magnet with a stack of Neo magnets from Micromark or a dealer from a show depending where I bought them at last. The fresh magnets restore motor power and drop amp draw to under 1amp at full stall in most cases. These models had enough gear reduction that a can motor is many times not needed. I also insulate the other motor brush during the rework so that DCC can be added. I normaly use a TCS T1 LED decoder if sound isnt being added. I am really getting the urge to do an HOn3 K series PFM engine, anybody wanna swap for that 2-8-0 in my above post? Even brass diesels can be a good deal for me. That one below the steamer in my pic is a odd ball importer from Canada, she is a CN GP40-2 with proper headlight/bell placement, factory can motor but still has the noisy tower gears. I replaced the plastic tower gear with brass, and this quiets it down some and smooths out the operation. I also add power pickups to give the model all wheel electrical pickup. I paid under $75 for a mint/boxed model. She has about 10 hours of run time and only gets better as the gears get run in. I have the stuff to paint the engine, just haven't done it yet. Mike
At least Coachyard, Challenger Imports, and a couple other manufacturers have offered streamlined passenger car sets under a few names that most regular dealers would have otherwised skiped.
Passenger cars in Brass definitely leave plastic models in the dust.
But do they always have to be so pricey?
PRR8259 It is indeed possible to find good brass steam that will run well right out of the box and not require additional adjustments: W&R/Samhongsa. Some of the others, maybe not so much, but the W&R stuff runs well. John
Oh I meant like a brass engine that is RTR, runs as well as plastic, and has DCC sound. One of my friends has a DCC layout and all his engines have sound. However, he dosen't EVER open up his engines, heck, he dosen't even glue broken off detail parts!
He recently bought a BLI turbine and he called BLI "b*llsh*t" and "cheap" because there was a tiny detail part that broke/fell off when he took it out of the box! He said he was going to return it and refund his $700 because of this tiny detail peice. He dosen't have the hands or the right tools (not even tweezers!) to fix these engines.
Anyways, my point is, to people like my friend, brass aren't meant for him because it is not completly RTR(good mech, dcc, sound, etc).
Hope you understand :D
Charles--
No worries!
Select BLI brass hybrids are indeed ready to run out of the box, lubricated, with sound, smoke, and lights...but they all require a little bit of care to not bend stuff, yet at the same time they won't break as easily as plastic.
My cat jumped on the layout and hit a brass hybrid 4-8-4 while it was running, and nothing, not even the delicate looking but properly soldered handrails on the front of the pilot, was damaged. The brass can sometimes be stronger given all the solder joints...