I have fairly good carpentry skills, but one thing I never learned was the differences in grades of lumber. This never became an issue until I bought some sheets of plywood for the expansion of my layout. I use the "cookie" cutter method for laying my subroadbed.
After cutting the necessary strips, I couldn't figure out why the ends wouldn't line up. It wasn't until I looked at the ends of the strips; one side of the strip had 4 plies, and the opposite side had 5! Well, no wonder.
My question is, is there a convenient link that shows the differences in lumber grades?
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Marlon:
Regardless of the grade of the plywood, your sheet is clearly defective. I would take a piece from each end back to the supplier and ask for your money back or at least a partial credit.
Also, I wouldn't use the four ply sections. They will be less stable than the five ply areas.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I don't know that the old scheme for grading lumber still works. For benchwork I always buy White Pine Select lumber, which is supposed to by the best quality pine you can buy. Yet I spend inordinant amounts of time checking individual boards for straightness and warpage. Normally I go through 30 pieces or better before I find something reasonably straight and not warped. The quality is just not there anymore in the lumber industry, especially anything you look at, at Home Depot or Lowes. And you can't hardly find an independent lumber yard anymore as the big boxes have put them out of business.
I recently purchased some excellent Select Pine at Menards imported from New Zealand. In fact even had a post composed asked JaBear is any of this fine stuff is still hauled by rail when the computer ate it last weekend and it was way late. May still do that. Here's a pic of what I did with it, making T-girders for a catwalk and bookshelf system for my wife.
Kinda fancy for benchwork, but it's sweet stuff. Even with Select, you do need to check boards for exact width, square ends, etc, but overall this NZ stuff is marvelous if that's what you're looking for.
A better pic to show the nice grain.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
The problem is that you can't get 1/2" plywood these days. It's been shaved down like most everything else (try to get a 1/2 gallon of ice cream or a 5 lb. bag of sugar). It's more like 15/32" or 23/32", unless you buy the really good stuff like birch or maple.
There is a trick to attaching two different thickness plywoods together without sanding or anything complicated. Take a strip of the new stuff and screw it to the bottom of the old stuff. Then take a strip of the old stuff and screw it to the bottom of the new stuff. Butt the joint togther, then put a splice plate under both added strips. By adding a piece of each kind of material to the underside of the opposite part, it will level the whole thing when you screw the splice plate on.
Paul A. Cutler III
mlehman I recently purchased some excellent Select Pine at Menards imported from New Zealand. but overall this NZ stuff is marvelous if that's what you're looking for.
I recently purchased some excellent Select Pine at Menards imported from New Zealand. but overall this NZ stuff is marvelous if that's what you're looking for.
Good of you to put in a plug for our NZ timber. I would be interested to know what price you pay because often our products are more expensive here than in the export market.
Timber is hauled by rail in the North Island near where Bear lives.
There was a propsal to haul timber by rail on a tourist line in my part of the country but it didn't work out financially.
Bill
I am fortunate to live close to a large lumber mill that specializes in moulding, chiefly for the housing industry (Royal Wood Working in Aurora, Ontario).
One of the products they stock is poplar. When you think of poplar you usually associate it with a tree that grows like a weed, won't burn worth heck, and is way too soft for any sort of carpentry. However, the poplar they stock is nothing short of amazing. It is straight, knot free, fine grained and stable, and it takes a beautiful finish. It has some green colouring in it so if you want to use it for cabinet work it is best stained dark, but for benchwork the colour doesn't matter. Best of all, it is much cheaper than pine and they sell it in a variety of board sizes, and if you want a 12' piece of 1" x 4" you can get it.
I have no idea how universal the availability of this sort of poplar is, but if you can find it, it's worth a look.
I haven't priced it for a while so whether or not the price would compare to 5/8" birch plywood ripped to size I don't know, but when I get to the point of starting my benchwork I'm definitely going to compare the two.
bagalGood of you to put in a plug for our NZ timber. I would be interested to know what price you pay because often our products are more expensive here than in the export market.
Bill,
We paid $33 for a 1"x12"x8' board, plus 9.5% sales tax. Mighty fine pieces of wood. The T-section walkways are a 1x6 walk with a 1x4 web. Not a knot in it, mostly straight as you could ask, a couple of the picked over boards had a slight bow I wouldn't have thought twice about, except they had all I needed in plain ol' straight.
bagalTimber is hauled by rail in the North Island near where Bear lives.
Excellent!. I'll have to start that thread for sure. Thanks for the video.
Dave,
I'm a big fan of poplar, too. It would make mighty tough L-girders if you need some bigguns.
Yes there are grades (Gooogle search for plywood grades). But most of what you see at the big box stores doesn't follow a grade. For model railroading the letter graded plywood BB is usually adequate if you can find it (the letters refer to each side with A being the best and D the worst). BC can work as well, but the C side can be a little rough. Baltic Birch is the best with 1/2" having 9 plies. As with anything else the better stuff costs more. Also you may find 9 plies a bit difficult to bend. If you go with the cheap stuff, I would make sure it's at least 4 plies - 5 is better. I don't buy 3 ply.
Good luck
Paul
My advice is to use a good lumber yard for purchasing plywood, not a big box store with their single grade, crappy "plywood".
Here is the list of plywood choices from my local lumber yard.
CDX
Doug Fir
OSB
Advantech
AC Fir
BC Pine
If you Google each of these types of plywood, you will find detailed descriptions of each type of plywood.
Rich
Alton Junction
hon30critter Marlon: Regardless of the grade of the plywood, your sheet is clearly defective. I would take a piece from each end back to the supplier and ask for your money back or at least a partial credit. Also, I wouldn't use the four ply sections. They will be less stable than the five ply areas. Dave
Thanks, Dave, already done. They also picked up the defective piece, but delivered a new sheet when they did.
richhotrain My advice is to use a good lumber yard for purchasing plywood, not a big box store with their single grade, crappy "plywood". Here is the list of plywood choices from my local lumber yard. CDX Doug Fir OSB Advantech AC Fir BC Pine If you Google each of these types of plywood, you will find detailed descriptions of each type of plywood. Rich
Thanks, Rich!
I juse OSB (Orientend Strand Board) 1/2 in. Its pretty flat, no warpeges because of the glue the peices together and compress it.
1/2 in 4x8 sheet is plenty tough enough for any layout.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Plywood is all about grades and plies.
For solid structure that doesn't bend or warp, use 5 ply 1/2" plywood for building your layout support structure.
Grades range from A to D with A being virtually flawless and D being rough.
Most exterior construction uses C to D grade plywood, thus the term CDX. Incidentally, the X does not stand for exterior, per se. Instead, it refers to the bonding glue between the plies, meaning that the glue used will withstand eXposure.
AC grade means that one side is A grade for virtually flawless finish , whereas C means that the other side is C grade for rough finish. The A side would be the surface of your layout and the C side would be the underside. Same reasoning for BC grade except that the surface side is not quite flawless, usually some sanded knots.
For my layout, I use only AC grade plywood. Expensive, but worth it.
Mike, my wife would be envious of your cat jungle gym.
As for grades, I do like the OP, I go to home depot and sort through 30 pieces of wood to find a some which are reasonably straight/true and buy them to use. I don't have one of those premium lumber stores around to brag about like some do and I don't have the budget to get the posh stuff either. I have managed to make do just fine with what I can fish out of Home Depots lumber.
As for plywood not matching end to end, just shim one of the sides to match the surface. There are lots of ways to make thing line up and work and still be dimensionally sound and even. With a little effort, you can build very decent layout benchwork without spending a small fortune.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
LOL
Premium lumber stores?
To brag about like some do?
Posh stuff?
Now, now.
It's all about budgeting, and it is all about doing what is best for you.
Some guys buy a heavily used loco at a train show for $30, other guys buy a brand new top of the line steamer with sound for $450.
I will say this, at the risk of "bragging". High quality lumber leads to more satisfactory results.
Medina1128 My question is, is there a convenient link that shows the differences in lumber grades?
http://www.ezwoodshop.com/plywood/plywood-grades.html
richhotrain Medina1128 My question is, is there a convenient link that shows the differences in lumber grades? Here is a helpful link. http://www.ezwoodshop.com/plywood/plywood-grades.html Rich
Here is a helpful link.
Thanks, Rich. I found the same link by Googling "lumber grades for model railroading."
The only dimensional lumber I used on my current 10' by 19' double deck layout was several premium grade 2" by 4"s that I let sit for several months to completely dry, then carefully ripped down to an actual 3" width (from the original 3 1/2") using a long and straight rip fence. These were then used to frame a stud wall that became the central backbone for a long peninsula with two layout decks double-cantilevered off this stud wall. All remaining framing lumber was made by ripping sheets of 7-ply 1/2" birch plywood into strips of the required dimensions. A couple extra 2" by 4"s were ripped in two and then cut into short blocks for use as glue blocks used to reinforce the plywood joints. All joints used 18 gauge brads and GLUE! The layout decks were made from 3/16" plywood pinned to the open grid framing using brads and glue. The backdrops on the long peninsula were made from 1/4" drywall glued to the central stud wall to provide shear strength and structural rigidity. Except for legs supporting the two helix structures and the center frame wall of the penisula, my layout has no other legs. Everything else is cantilevered off the walls with the structural fascia pieces adding span strength. I have several lengths of 24" deep deck as much as 15' long with no support other than the cantilever and fascia spans. These sections easily hold my 200 pound weight and I routinely grab the end of the peninsula to haul myself up when crawling out from under the one helix structure. "Big deal" you might say but keep in mind that about half of the peninsula is truly freestanding as the sectional door of my garage needs the space above one end of the peninsula to open. There was some flex in the peninsula framing prior to adding the decks and backdrops, but the added shear strength provided by these two components made the structure a rock! I built my benchwork over six years ago and have seen absolutely no warping. I purposely built in slight crowns in the longer cantilevered sections so that these sections would approach true flat as they sagged over time. After six years, the crowns are still there, even with all the stuff I've put on the layout. Its amazing how a little structural engineering know-how can improve your benchwork - and save you a lot of money on lumber!
Don't believe me?
Hornblower
I gave up buying lumber at Home Depot. Lowes seems to have a better selection. There is a caveat to this. They seem to have two sections. They have the normal lumber section (typical of any big box store) and they an aisle farther down that has their "premium grade" lumber. This stuff is what used to always be available. The majority of it is straight I usually only have to check 5 or six pieces before i find what I need.
What I use for plywood is B-C 1/2" (actual is 0.47") Sanded Ply from Lowes. It is $31 for a 4x8. It is very smooth. The only issue I have had is on a rare occasion (only happened to one sheet) I had some seperation happen between the layers when I was cutting it. I glued them back together so it wasn't really an issue.
It is flexible enough to make elevation changes but sturdy enough to hold my weight.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
I got curious why plywood is thinner than you expect. Turns out there is a thickness tolerance. For "un-sanded plywood" (I believe that's what we usually get) it's +- 1/32 inch. So 3/4 can be 1/32 under. It could also be over. Ever see that? Me neither. So, the guys who make ply are so good at it that they don't even need the tolerance. They just use it to their advantage.
There is also "sanded plywood". Tolerances here are generally 1/64 inch.
I have also seen plywood marked in 32's. So, instead of 3/4, you're buying sorta-3/4. Like 23/32. Or maybe 21/32.
Generally, ya payz yer money and yez takes yer choices.
Ed
Where I live, HD and Lowes seem to have pretty similar selection for lumber - I've bought from both but there is a HD close to me which has supplied my basic needs as long as I take the time to pick through the lumber. So for works for me.
I see no mention of spline roadbed or using 1/2" Gatorfoam for base structures, sidings and yards.
Had I used plywood sub-roadbed and gone to "cookie-cutter" cutting of sections, my rough estimates would have been between 150-175 sheets of plywood just for sub-roadbed and yards. At the lessor figure,and at $20 per sheet, my cost would have exceeed $3000/ Instead I went to white pine splines cut to 3/16" x 96" each. I'd guess over the years I used around 30 1"x 12"x 96" pine shelf boards at around $8 each. If you do the math...It came to around $240 instead of $3000. My yards are from 1/2" Gatorfoam which is more expensive than 1/2" plywood (A-C grade), but cutting with a matte knife vs a sabre saw with endless amounts of sawdust made work quite a bit easeir....then no drilling, Holes were simply punched with an awl. I should mention that layout is 2850 sq.feet and built in stages over the years.
Gatorboard rarely warps (Plywood is guarnteed to warp some). Still I glued and screwed a few wood stringers under the Gatorboard yards....just as a precaution.
For a large layout, I'd seriously recommend using splines...not only easier and cheaper, but your curve easements form automatically. For a smaller layout, most likely plywood would be the most practical. I'd be glad to show those of you who live near-by me in Maryland how to do spline construction. It is so simple that I will guarantee amazement.
My actual roadbed is 1/2" Homasote.
HZ
Menards has better lumber than HD. HD tried to open a store right across the street from Menards. HD is gon, Menards, that is still there. They just opened a Menards in Dickinson, where there is no Lowes or HD.
Selections of lumber in Menards seems to be good. Of course they have "Yard Lumber" and "Store Lumber". I cannot speak to what is in the yard, sold by truck loads to builders, Inside the have stuff for casual buyers. Tends to be good stuff, some if the sticks are individually wrapped. May have something to de with trade agreements with Canada. There is a limit to how much lumber Canada can export to the USA, so they fabricate assembled building components, these do not count as lumber, but as manufactured products.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Have to agree that at least the Plywood I saw in HD looked like 3 ply sheets. Have not tried Lowes but I think it will be similar. NYC is one of the few places where local lumberyards still exist.
I am having someone ( a contractor we used during recent home renovations) do the shelf bench work for my layout and some display shelving above. He tells me he can get the quality 5 ply Lumber I am requesting along with Homosote and support work.
Joe Staten Island West
Geeez, I just can't see myself spending $30/ ea for plywood.
I paid $12/ ea for the OSB 1/2".
This thread could easily grow contentious since it is all about choice and price.
I will offer this observation.
Each modeler has to do what is best for him and within his budget.
But, I would say this. You wouldn't buy an expensive new car and then pick the cheapest tires available. The choice and price of the materials used in your benchwork ought to commensurate with the overall choices and prices of what will sit on that layout. If you are buying $400 locos and $80 pieces of rolling stock, you can afford to buy higher quality plywood.
Yeah, everyone makes their own choices about such things.
For me, good benchwork is like the foundation on your house. Would you want to build a house on sand, cardboard, or something else relatively flimsy? Probably not.
And no matter how you decide to spend money on top of the layout, it's your labor that's often the biggest contribution. It takes a lot of labor to build even a medium sized layout. Don't just think of the money you save on cheap lumber, consider the potential waste of time.
I think this is why we tend to think of modules when thinking of anything less than a permanent layout. In the past, cheap lumber and lots of time meant it was easier to just scrap out a layout and start over. Some still do. But we also know many now build modulized layouts, to either common standards or their own, in order to preserve their investments in time and money in the layout they've already built.
This all assumes you're past the beginner stage. Beginner layouts are "important learning opportunities" or, as they are better known, mistakes. We all need some of that, so that may be where to go a little cheaper...but not so cheap as to frustrate yourself out of the hobby, of course.
mlehmanAnd no matter how you decide to spend money on top of the layout, it's your labor that's often the biggest contribution.
I agree with this absolutely. Still having a day job, my time is the most valuable commodity that goes into the construction of the layout. The last thing I want is to waste time dealing with inferior materials.
I am also lucky to have a good locally owned lumber yard here in town. I pay for a dozen 1x3's up front, pull the truck around back and they load up a dozen straight 1x3's. They even wrap the ends with plastic wrap to make them easy to carry as a bundle.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
There is a Menard's in Sedalia, but a Lowe's in Warrensburg, MO, which is closer. I once placed an online order through Lowe's. As the associate started wheeling the cart out to my truck, I got a gander at the 1x4s they had put on it; warped, twisted, cracked, etc. Ever since then, I've learned that it's worth the time to go through and pick the best pieces. I can't even begin to wonder who's buying that other stuff...