I am considering purchasing a SP Cab Forward in HO scale and like the looks of the Intermountain version. Does anyone have any experience or data on their DCC model with or without sound? I also like the BLI version but the IM looks like it has better detailing. I am making my assumptions from photos on the internet only as I don't have access to any actual models. Any recommendations or warnings would be helpful on my decision. I had a Rivarossi model but it wasn't worth keeping.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Keep in mind the BLI Cab Forward is a very different version than the AC-8 thru 12; the AC-6 type with the flat pilot, if that makes a difference. I purchased an Intermountain AC-10 cab forward from the 3rd run with Lok Sound a few months ago but haven't had a chance to run it since my layout is partially broken down while I do some basement work.
I did some research before buying mine and recommend the 3rd run Intermountain cab forwards. The Loksound is everyones favorite over the Tsunami used on the 1st & 2nd runs. I never owned the BLI flat nose cab forward, although some say it has a bit less detail but otherwise it's a handsome steam engine.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I own the BLI AC4, the MTH AC 6 and three Intermountain AC12's and a Key AC12. All are different since they are different classes of the Cab Forward built over twenty years for the Southern Pacific.
The MTH runs well and is nice overall, but the 4150 number on the model is incorrect as this real prototype never got the rebuilt cab.
The Intermountain AC 12 is really nice in detail and if you get the 3rd production run, it runs well, but the first and second runs had major problems with the drive line and motors over heating. They need to be sent back to Intermountain for upgrades if you want to run them on anything but a test track. There are many articles of the problems.
I do not have the 3rd run but friends have them and they run well and it is probably the best for SP fans to have the latest prototype version.
The BLI AC4 is nice overall and runs OK.
CZ
I am no expert but the AC-8, AC-10, AC-11 and AC-12 are very similar to each other and only differ in some minor details between builds. To the average person they all look the same. Intermountain offers all of the above with some different versions - such as large Southern Pacific on the tender, small Southern Pacific on the tender, and the latter day - no lettering on the tender (as the soot ended up obscuring it after time anyway)
There are many dealers who have the 2nd run Intermountain Cab Forwards for sale but sent them back to Intermountain to have the motors and drives upgraded to 3rd run standards. Those should be fine also and you might get them for a better discount.
There was a guy at the last Timonium train show with 2 Intermountain Cab Forwards he was running double head with a 100 car SP/UP PFE ice reefer train. One was a 1st run and the other was 2nd run - he had replace the motors on both and they ran very well.
Just make sure you get one with the new motor if you get the Intermountain. All the 3rd run should be fine, and again, many of the earlier runs have been factory refurbished. A guy at the last Greenberg show had some 2nd run sent back to Intermountain and upgrade to be like the 3rd run. They had stickers on the box placed there by Intermountain showing the upgrade had been done. Those units, should run fine - any of them with sound do have the Tsunami for what it's worth.
riogrande5761 There was a guy at the last Timonium train show with 2 Intermountain Cab Forwards he was running double head with a 100 car SP/UP PFE ice reefer train. One was a 1st run and the other was 2nd run -
There was a guy at the last Timonium train show with 2 Intermountain Cab Forwards he was running double head with a 100 car SP/UP PFE ice reefer train. One was a 1st run and the other was 2nd run -
Doubleheading cab-forwards...Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
I expect the guy at the train show was double heading to avoid stinglining his long expensive consist of mostly Intermountain RTR ice reefers. What would you do in the same situation?
Oh, and not all the lines where the Cab Forwards ran had long tunnels and snow sheds tunnels, just saying ...
I expect trains on Donner Pass had helpers cut well back into the train.
My advice: If you want it to run well with no issues - buy the BLI AC4 or AC5 - try to get the first run Paragon series (avoid the blueline).
I have had too many issues with the running qualities of the Intermountain Cab forwards to recommend them. I've tested first and second run locos with disappointing results. The models I tested were light on their feet and derailed on No 6 turnouts and 30" Radius curves. I tested a factory fixed second run with similar results. The detail on these locos is great - just wished they ran better.
Your Mileage may vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250 My advice: If you want it to run well with no issues - buy the BLI AC4 or AC5 - try to get the first run Paragon series (avoid the blueline). I have had too many issues with the running qualities of the Intermountain Cab forwards to recommend them. I've tested first and second run locos with disappointing results. The models I tested were light on their feet and derailed on No 6 turnouts and 30" Radius curves. I tested a factory fixed second run with similar results. The detail on these locos is great - just wished they ran better. Your Mileage may vary, Guy
It looks like mileage does vary. I watched two at the train show run very nicely - one was from the 1st run and one was from the 2nd run.
ALL feedback for the 3rd run Intermountain has been positive - no bad reports from them. BTW, I have read one or two bad reports about the BLI Cab Forwards too, so either way I suppose one could be taking a chance AND they are more expensive. My best advise would be buy an Intermountain from the 3rd run.
I'm an Eastern guy, not an SP guy, so I have no horse in this race. However, I do have a problem with the appearance of most modern articulated models because of their appearance on curves, especially very sharp curves. On a prototype articulated, the engine nearest the cab is rigidly mounted under the boiler. The other engine swivels. If both engines swivel, as on most modern models, then the engine just looks wrong when going through curves. This is particularly noticeable on engines with a long "front porch", and not so noticeable on engines with a short front end like Alleghenies and Challengers. The porch is pretty long on an AC. I understand the Intermountain AC is the only one that is set up like a real articulated engine. If I had the spare money (which I don't), I'd like to have an AC just because I like them. I'd prefer one of the latest run of Intermountain AC's because the later cab style was more common than the flat front style, and more attractive in my opinion. The articulation is more accurately rendered, and the third run seems to have overcome the problems that were found in the earlier runs.
As for running qualities, I suspect the BLI or third run Intermountain would be your best bet.
Tom
riogrande5761 trainnut1250 My advice: If you want it to run well with no issues - buy the BLI AC4 or AC5 - try to get the first run Paragon series (avoid the blueline). I have had too many issues with the running qualities of the Intermountain Cab forwards to recommend them. I've tested first and second run locos with disappointing results. The models I tested were light on their feet and derailed on No 6 turnouts and 30" Radius curves. I tested a factory fixed second run with similar results. The detail on these locos is great - just wished they ran better. Your Mileage may vary, Guy It looks like mileage does vary. I watched two at the train show run very nicely - one was from the 1st run and one was from the 2nd run. ALL feedback for the 3rd run Intermountain has been positive - no bad reports from them. BTW, I have read one or two bad reports about the BLI Cab Forwards too, so either way I suppose one could be taking a chance AND they are more expensive. My best advise would be buy an Intermountain from the 3rd run.
I have heard of similar reports - just relaying my experiences with them on my layout. Sounds like the third run is better...
trainnut1250 I have heard of similar reports - just relaying my experiences with them on my layout. Sounds like the third run is better... Guy
More grist for the mill below:
Here is a quote from an owner of 3rd run Intermountain Cab Forwards:
I have four of the third run of intermounian cab foward no problems good sound run nice an smooth only trouble getting throtle controlers back off guys running them they just love em!!! Cheers Dennis
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,3825276
Opinions on the BLI unit - two quoted below:
I guess everything is subjective. I love my MTH cab forward. I think the sound is superior to any of my tsunami equipped engines and the engine runs as smooth as glass. A divergent opinion here... I have two of the AC-6s from the first run (1 flatface, 1 with the modern cab) and am rather disappointed with them: they are my first and last MTH engines. To my eyes they look rather toylike (too glossy paint, bright, unpainted wheel tires and centers, a bit light in the detail department, cab lights always on,... All that can be fixed of course, but for the price it shouldn't be necessary), and the sound is just average. I don't know if nowadays they are available with a full-function DCC decoder; mine came with the DCS, so have very limited programming possibilities on DCC. Running qualities are OK, but pulling power wasn't too good for such heavy engines either: 23 cars (weighted to NMRA standards) on a 2% 40-inch curve were too much, and it stood slipping. In my view -YMMV of course!- they are overpriced. A 3rd run Intermountain AC-10 looks, runs and sounds a lot better. WDW
I guess everything is subjective. I love my MTH cab forward. I think the sound is superior to any of my tsunami equipped engines and the engine runs as smooth as glass.
A divergent opinion here... I have two of the AC-6s from the first run (1 flatface, 1 with the modern cab) and am rather disappointed with them: they are my first and last MTH engines. To my eyes they look rather toylike (too glossy paint, bright, unpainted wheel tires and centers, a bit light in the detail department, cab lights always on,... All that can be fixed of course, but for the price it shouldn't be necessary), and the sound is just average. I don't know if nowadays they are available with a full-function DCC decoder; mine came with the DCS, so have very limited programming possibilities on DCC. Running qualities are OK, but pulling power wasn't too good for such heavy engines either: 23 cars (weighted to NMRA standards) on a 2% 40-inch curve were too much, and it stood slipping. In my view -YMMV of course!- they are overpriced. A 3rd run Intermountain AC-10 looks, runs and sounds a lot better. WDW
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,3770574
steemtrayn riogrande5761 There was a guy at the last Timonium train show with 2 Intermountain Cab Forwards he was running double head with a 100 car SP/UP PFE ice reefer train. One was a 1st run and the other was 2nd run - Doubleheading cab-forwards...Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Cab Forwards were not double headed on Donner, but triple headed with second loco in the train about thirty cars back the one more at the end of the train. That would allow the smoke to clear somwhat on the tunnels. The same type of loco separation was done on the Mojave segment.
On the very famout T loop, the water plugs were spaced exactly the same as the locos on the train so they could all water at once at Woodford. Trains were made up to handle this chore is they required water at that place. All three sets of concrete those water tanks were mounted on are still there today.
I am amazed they avoided the use of extra water cars on each loco which would have allowed them to go all the way to Majave.
Larry
SP also prohbited double heading of AC's on freight due to the pulled couplers and draft gear that resulted, the stouter construction of couplers and draft gear permited double heading on passenger trains however.
ACY I'd prefer one of the latest run of Intermountain AC's because the later cab style was more common than the flat front style, and more attractive in my opinion. The articulation is more accurately rendered, and the third run seems to have overcome the problems that were found in the earlier runs. As for running qualities, I suspect the BLI or third run Intermountain would be your best bet. Tom
I'd prefer one of the latest run of Intermountain AC's because the later cab style was more common than the flat front style, and more attractive in my opinion. The articulation is more accurately rendered, and the third run seems to have overcome the problems that were found in the earlier runs.
Interesting info I didn't know about Tom.
I agree with you also in that I like the look of the latter type of AC cab forward cab style (pointed). It's more attractive to me. There is one preserved in Sacramento too!
Thanks guys, great info for me to ponder over. Sounds like the Intermountain 3rd run is my best bet, which I belive is the one I was looking at, with Lok Sound decoder. Will have to save a little more money to get the DCC/Sound version. I had considered a non-sound one and then adding the Lok Sound decoder but most factory sound systems are better buys. I will post my findings when I have the engine in hand.
Bob,
Yes, confirming the Intermountain Cab Forward has the ESU Locksound (sound version only) is one way to be 99% sure you are getting a 3rd run. Only the 3rd run came with Loksound - the ealier 1st and 2nd runs came with Soundtraxx Tsunami.
I would think it would be much less hassle and usually more cost effective to get the sound version rather than install it in a non-sound unit. Other than that, you'll want to confirm in anyway possible you are getting a 3rd run IMR Cab Forward. Probably check the part number too. Below is a link to IMR's list of Cab Forwards
http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/loco/holocac12.htm
It does appear that the BLI/MTH cab forwards are good quality models and many like them as well - just depends on our preference. Here is a link to a British guys post in another forum where he weathered his BLI cab forward and posted pictures - looks great!
http://www.southernpacificmodelerssociety.org/ac-6-t4921.html
riogrande5761Other than that, you'll want to confirm in anyway possible you are getting a 3rd run IMR Cab Forward. Probably check the part number too. Below is a link to IMR's list of Cab Forwards
Yes, I checked the IM part number and the one I am looking at is the newest version with Lok sound. Almost ready to bite the bullet! Thanks for the info. BTW, the MTH weathered one is a beauty!
I ordered the IM Cab Forward yesterday and should have it next week sometime. I will post my comments when I have had some time to run her. Thanks again to all. Some info is just impossible to get without a forum like this.
The Cab Forward arrived today and had a little time to run it around the layout. I just love this engine, both asthecically and the sound is absolutely great (but a little loud for now!). It has the LOK sound decoder and this is probably the best sounding engine I have now. I will do some fine tuning when I get some time and post some photos. My 5 year old great grandson got so excited when I opened the box tonight you would think it was Christmas morning. He ran it around the laylout for about 30 minutes and pitched a fit when I told him it was bedtime. He loves it as much as I do!
Hope you all have a great Thanksgiving tomorrow.
Gratz on the Cab Forward. I'm sure there is a way to adjust the sound - as soon as I get my layout back together and wired, I'm going to try out mine.
Cheers, Jim
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that your HO Cab Forward is too loud. I never stood near an operating SP Cab Forward, but I did stand near an operating B&O EM-1, which is pretty much the same thing, flipped around. I'm tempted to suggest that your model could NEVER be too loud.
ACY I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that your HO Cab Forward is too loud. I never stood near an operating SP Cab Forward, but I did stand near an operating B&O EM-1, which is pretty much the same thing, flipped around. I'm tempted to suggest that your model could NEVER be too loud. Tom
Tom,
When I say too loud, I mean that it overpowers all other sound locos, but the sound is so clear you would think you were standing right next to the real thing! This is not a bad thing, but I have to have some limit to how loud my engines are. I have most cut to about 50% volume and they sound great when you are within 10 feet of them, but when they are 20 feet away on the other side of the layout they should just be audible, more like in real life. Once I get the volume cut down on the Cab Forward I may not like the sound quality as much and then I can decide what volume is best for 'my ears'. When I hit the F8 to mute the sound, it still plays the whistle, horn and bell, but silences the chuffing and other related sounds, so I may have to play with individual sound values to find a happy medium.
If I only had this engine with sound then I would keep it as is, but with 30 sound engines on the layout (many with sounds playing while idle) it is too much. I know some can be set to only play sounds when addressed, but I haven't been able to do this with all of them.