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Double Slip Switch Locked

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Double Slip Switch
Posted by don7 on Saturday, August 03, 2013 4:35 PM

I was advised that there was a yard sale last week and that there would be a number of HO model railroad items there. All of the items had been bought i over five or six years and then building a layout was of no interest. Went to RC cars and trains.

I came across a half dozen Atlas Double Switches at a yard sale and have a question.

I was very surprised to see that there was a few train sets (five or six left ) all made by Athearn, a lot of Heljan building kits which were certainly priced to sell at $5 each.

These were a bit too European for my liking, although If I did not have the roundhouse I certainly would have bought the two stall train shed.

Quite a few premade tunnels and trees, I forgot how awful those things looked.

And the slip switches, they are in Atlas boxes and yet three are marked Shinohara, that certainly answered who made them.

Forgot to mention the switches were $10 each. in case anyone wondered.

Anyway, I have been planning to redo my main switching yard and these double slip switches certainly make layout out the yard very easy.

My question, why do I not see more layout using double slip switches?

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Posted by jrbernier on Saturday, August 03, 2013 4:48 PM

  Back in the 80's, Atlas imported some track items made by Cassidio in Italy.  It was labeled 'Customline Supreme'.  If the switches are labeled 'Shinohara', they are just in the wrong box.

  Most prototype freight yards do not use slip switches - I can thing of one I have seen over the years.  However, passenger terminals have used lots of slip switches.  I think I have seen a higher percentage of them on model layouts over the years...

Jim

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Saturday, August 03, 2013 5:04 PM

I use a couple of doubleslip switches in my freight yard because they save space.

In most cases a few can be used, but I haven't seen a lot of them used in one yard.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by Motley on Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:00 PM

Don,

I'm going to use double slips here in my passenger staging. You see the four tracks here. I haven't installed them yet, but plan to really soon. I'm going to use 4 of the Peco double slips, and they are expensive.

Michael

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Posted by ChadLRyan on Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:58 PM

I really like double slip switches, because they are binary, so many possibilities...
I have many all in odd numbers, but do not let that stop you..
You can place one on a Dual Mainline to a side line & the other Mainline with one other turnout.
They are very compact, & make really neat looking trackwork, look at any Walthers ads...

Just my thoughts...

Chad L Ryan
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, August 03, 2013 7:05 PM

don7

I was advised that there was a yard sale last week and that there would be a number of HO model railroad items there. All of the items had been bought i over five or six years and then building a layout was of no interest. Went to RC cars and trains.

I came across a half dozen Atlas Double Switches at a yard sale and have a question.

I was very surprised to see that there was a few train sets (five or six left ) all made by Athearn, a lot of Heljan building kits which were certainly priced to sell at $5 each.

These were a bit too European for my liking, although If I did not have the roundhouse I certainly would have bought the two stall train shed.

Quite a few premade tunnels and trees, I forgot how awful those things looked.

And the slip switches, they are in Atlas boxes and yet three are marked Shinohara, that certainly answered who made them.

Forgot to mention the switches were $10 each. in case anyone wondered.

Anyway, I have been planning to redo my main switching yard and these double slip switches certainly make layout out the yard very easy.

My question, why do I not see more layout using double slip switches?

Don, the real railroads avoid slip switches like the plague. Their most common use was/is in crowded, busy passenger terminal yards. They are very high maintenance, so they are generally only found in locations like that where a track crew is always available and working.

Then can be helpful on our selectively compressed model layouts, but the smart track planner avoids them unless they really solve a problem or save a lot of space - just lke in real life.

And just like real life, keep them within easy access.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by don7 on Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:18 PM

Sheldon

Well they are definitely doing their job, as a space saver.

I can easily increase the amount of tracks from 4 to 6 with in the old yard area.

Amazingly the tracks are closer together but there is just enough room for the cars not to scrap each other. The yard area is easily reached at the front of the layout.

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Posted by ChadLRyan on Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:23 PM

Hmmm, I guess I'm the WildCat Again...!

Chad L Ryan
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, August 03, 2013 9:44 PM

don7

Sheldon

Well they are definitely doing their job, as a space saver.

I can easily increase the amount of tracks from 4 to 6 with in the old yard area.

Amazingly the tracks are closer together but there is just enough room for the cars not to scrap each other. The yard area is easily reached at the front of the layout.

I have a few, basically at locations where yard leads join my double track mainline, they do save space.

A well known club that use to belong to years ago has a double crossover with one of the turnouts also being a double slip connecting the main freight yard with a double track main - scratch built of course, by the master craftsman who taught me to hand lay track 40 years ago when I was just 16 - talk about saving space!

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Saturday, August 03, 2013 10:03 PM

Three reasons why double slips aren't used much:

  1. Expensive, if bought in bubble packs.
  2. Infrequently used by the prototype.  With the demise of massive passenger throats, most of the need went away.  So did the double slips.
  3. Supposedly difficult to hand lay and wire.

Note that I said, "Supposedly."  Actually, hand-laying and wiring a double slip is dead simple, even in analog DC.  Granted that it's more complex than a simple turnout.  It's less complex than a double crossover, and no one seems to have a problem with one of those.

In my modeling I will be laying double slips in two places of diametrically opposite characteristics.  One, which follows the track layout of Higashi-Shiojiri on the Chu-o Hon Sen, will employ one, as part of the arrangement that crams a station/passing point onto a shelf between a bridge and a tunnel mouth.  The other is the Down end of my main station, Tomikawa - double track main splitting to four platform tracks and a freight arrival-departure track, including a steam loco escape pocket and a motor pocket in minimum length.  Using double slips, I can cram all that into just over one meter of first main track length.  Without them that one throat would take up the entire length of the passenger station area.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with double slips where necessary)

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Posted by ChadLRyan on Sunday, August 04, 2013 3:52 AM

I'm a WildCat,   ...because I like this....

Here is a Double Slip Switch, with a Turnout, representing a Dual Track Mainline & a Siding exit. The use of the Double Slip does not make a dangerous 'S' curve effect, but is a smooth & efficient curve from either main track. The only 'S Curve' situation is transitioning from one Mainline to the other, which would be had with conventional Turnouts anyway. This smoother transition, & the space savings over individual turnouts, promote it's use in my environment.

Chad L Ryan
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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, August 04, 2013 4:52 AM

I have a double slip turnout on my double main line.  It cuts across the inner main line track from the outer main line track, leading to a spur track where I park a bunch of diesels waiting to be called into action.

As others have said, double slips were somewhat common in passenger stations where space was at a premium.  At Dearborn Station in Chicago, there were five double slips within a few yards of one another.

On the layout, the double slip does not present any particular wiring problems, but controlling the double slip movements takes some practice. Trains can come and go through the double slip in 8 different movements, four in each direction.   It takes two switch machines (e.g., Tortoises) to complete a movement, and it is easy to mis-route a loco if you are not careful or are forgetful.

Rich

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 04, 2013 12:45 PM

ChadLRyan

I'm a WildCat,   ...because I like this....

Here is a Double Slip Switch, with a Turnout, representing a Dual Track Mainline & a Siding exit. The use of the Double Slip does not make a dangerous 'S' curve effect, but is a smooth & efficient curve from either main track. The only 'S Curve' situation is transitioning from one Mainline to the other, which would be had with conventional Turnouts anyway. This smoother transition, & the space savings over individual turnouts, promote it's use in my environment.

 

That is the common use for them, I have the same thing, where yards enter/leave my double track mainline. And as part of the same interlocking I always have a crossover in the other direction as well.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by UP 4-12-2 on Monday, August 05, 2013 11:23 AM

The only reasonably well-known and documented mainline use (outside a terminal track arrangement) of double slip turnouts in the United States was at Leavittsburg, Ohio, where a double track Erie/E-L mainline crossed a single track B&O mainline.

Those double slip turnouts were removed during the 1970's.  However, as recently as 1991, it was still possible to discern where they had been located on the ground.  My friend and I went looking for them, but he forgot the Morning Sun E-L books clearly stated that they had been removed...a partly wasted road trip on our part.

If there were other mainline uses of double slip turnouts, I'm not aware of where they were located.

In the model world, double slip turnouts have generally been considered to be a maintenance and derailment headache.  Personally, I would prefer Peco's over Shinohara.

John

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, August 05, 2013 11:33 AM

UP 4-12-2

In the model world, double slip turnouts have generally been considered to be a maintenance and derailment headache.  Personally, I would prefer Peco's over Shinohara.

My double slip is a Walthers Shinohara, and I have no such problems, except for the occasional "operator error".

Rich

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, August 05, 2013 7:51 PM

richhotrain

UP 4-12-2

In the model world, double slip turnouts have generally been considered to be a maintenance and derailment headache.  Personally, I would prefer Peco's over Shinohara.

My double slip is a Walthers Shinohara, and I have no such problems, except for the occasional "operator error".

Rich

Same here my Walthers Shinohara slips work fine. Personally I have no use for PECO with their sharp angle, 12 degree = #4, and the their sprung throw bars. Half the stuff I own will not go through a #4 anything, and most of the rest should not go through a number 4 just based on looks.

Sheldon

 

    

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Posted by Motley on Monday, August 05, 2013 9:11 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

richhotrain

UP 4-12-2

In the model world, double slip turnouts have generally been considered to be a maintenance and derailment headache.  Personally, I would prefer Peco's over Shinohara.

My double slip is a Walthers Shinohara, and I have no such problems, except for the occasional "operator error".

Rich

Same here my Walthers Shinohara slips work fine. Personally I have no use for PECO with their sharp angle, 12 degree = #4, and the their sprung throw bars. Half the stuff I own will not go through a #4 anything, and most of the rest should not go through a number 4 just based on looks.

Sheldon

Sheldon,

I have the Peco code 75 double slip SL-190, and they are equivalent to a #5 switch.

Michael

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, August 05, 2013 9:54 PM

Motley

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

richhotrain

UP 4-12-2

In the model world, double slip turnouts have generally been considered to be a maintenance and derailment headache.  Personally, I would prefer Peco's over Shinohara.

My double slip is a Walthers Shinohara, and I have no such problems, except for the occasional "operator error".

Rich

Same here my Walthers Shinohara slips work fine. Personally I have no use for PECO with their sharp angle, 12 degree = #4, and the their sprung throw bars. Half the stuff I own will not go through a #4 anything, and most of the rest should not go through a number 4 just based on looks.

Sheldon

Sheldon,

I have the Peco code 75 double slip SL-190, and they are equivalent to a #5 switch.

Agreed, 12 degrees is in between a #4 and a #5, very close to #5 - and I still don't want any PECO turnouts.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by don7 on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 1:35 PM

Thanks to all for the information.

I wish I had acquired these before.

I had tried these switches after I first got them by mounting them on a piece of ceiling tile. I have used caboose hand throws on these and I am happy to report that the slips work very well.

Using my little tank engine to switch around my various rail cars I can report no derailments or other problems. I used the Dow adhesive lightly and the bond between the panel and the switches and track is great a few hours switching resulted in no observable movement

As I mention the yards now have more lines of track, overall appearance of yard it more attactive and the rail lines do seem straighter.

Certainly a win - win

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Posted by b60bp on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 9:33 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Same here my Walthers Shinohara slips work fine. Personally I have no use for PECO with their sharp angle, 12 degree = #4, and the their sprung throw bars. Half the stuff I own will not go through a #4 anything, and most of the rest should not go through a number 4 just based on looks.

Sheldon

 

This is completly untrue. A slip switch is a type of "wye" or equalateral turnout. This means the frog angle is split between the diverging rails. therefor a 4 is equal to a #8, a 5 is like a 10, etc. This is why a lot of mainline turnouts are of the wye type when they fit the layout.

I know they were used on more than a B&O-Erie crossing in Ohio. When I was a section hand on the Milwaukee, there were two located at Chestnut St in St. Paul where the Milw and Omaha Road split. I had to dig frozen track heaters out of the ice there on a minus 36 degree day back in 1969.

Regrds

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Posted by dbduck on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 9:45 AM

How many double slips in this pic?

 

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Posted by bitlerisvj on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 10:04 AM

There is ONE #6 double slip on the Monon that I operate on once a month and it is in my Mitchell yard that I generally run.  It pretty much works ok with almost all of our regular equipment so I can't complain much about it.  We did try to run a B&O EM 1 (2-8-8-4) through it, but it did not like it at all.  So if I were you, I would use these in a low traffic area, even though the one in the Mitchell yard is right on the mainline.  Having said that I scratch built a double slip for my layout and installed it using two Tortoises and I also indicated it with bi-polar LEDs.  The wiring was easy as was the indication on the panel.  You just need to remember the opposite Tortoise controls the direction.  I located mine in a spot where a double slip makes sense for more flexible local industry switching.  You need to be aware that the #6 double slips limit themselves to using K-Frogs, but if you can use a larger frog number, such as #8 or larger, then most of these have double the amount of points and are far more reliable.  Prototype double slips are built with double the points and do not use K-Frogs.  As far as why you don't see them in the U.S., well I think there were enough answers posted that are pretty well spot on.  You do see them in the U.K. a lot more.

Regards, Vic Bitleris

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:12 AM

b60bp

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Same here my Walthers Shinohara slips work fine. Personally I have no use for PECO with their sharp angle, 12 degree = #4, and the their sprung throw bars. Half the stuff I own will not go through a #4 anything, and most of the rest should not go through a number 4 just based on looks.

Sheldon

 

This is completly untrue. A slip switch is a type of "wye" or equalateral turnout. This means the frog angle is split between the diverging rails. therefor a 4 is equal to a #8, a 5 is like a 10, etc. This is why a lot of mainline turnouts are of the wye type when they fit the layout.

I know they were used on more than a B&O-Erie crossing in Ohio. When I was a section hand on the Milwaukee, there were two located at Chestnut St in St. Paul where the Milw and Omaha Road split. I had to dig frozen track heaters out of the ice there on a minus 36 degree day back in 1969.

Regrds

I'nm sorry but that is not the case - A 12 degree slip requires a 12 degree change in direction to take the diverging route, so it is a #5 - you are not approaching the frog from the center line of the frog as you do in WYE turnout - take a closer look.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:15 AM

dbduck

How many double slips in this pic?

 

And do you see all those parts laying around in that photo? That track work kept a crew of 20 men working full time.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by b60bp on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 1:56 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I'nm sorry but that is not the case - A 12 degree slip requires a 12 degree change in direction to take the diverging route, so it is a #5 - you are not approaching the frog from the center line of the frog as you do in WYE turnout - take a closer look.

Sheldon

Nope.  I've never heard of a turnout being sized by it's degree of divergence, but by it's ratio of divergence. I would suggest you take a closer look. Peco makes this easy: their website has templates of all their track products. Look up their SL90 double slip. (If you copy it, it may not transfer at 100% so you may have to adjust your copy size).

Notice this turnout, like all their code 100's, has a Sampson Fit for the points. Measure from the fitting point in the stock rail to the end of the turnout: you'll find this is 7 inchs, with 1 inch of divergence.. Tip of the point rail to point of frog is 5.25 inchs. No way is that a number 4.

Another tip off is the fact that , in a vague manner,turnouts have what John Armstrong referred to a "curve equivlent radius" or something along that order. Take a gander at the curve a train would take moving from lower left entry to lower right. If this was a number four, or even a number six, the curve would be much, much sharper. This is a large radius piece of trackwork.\, and like all Peco products, is excellent.

Regards,

Benny

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 4:05 PM

b60bp

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I'nm sorry but that is not the case - A 12 degree slip requires a 12 degree change in direction to take the diverging route, so it is a #5 - you are not approaching the frog from the center line of the frog as you do in WYE turnout - take a closer look.

Sheldon

Nope.  I've never heard of a turnout being sized by it's degree of divergence, but by it's ratio of divergence. I would suggest you take a closer look. Peco makes this easy: their website has templates of all their track products. Look up their SL90 double slip. (If you copy it, it may not transfer at 100% so you may have to adjust your copy size).

Notice this turnout, like all their code 100's, has a Sampson Fit for the points. Measure from the fitting point in the stock rail to the end of the turnout: you'll find this is 7 inchs, with 1 inch of divergence.. Tip of the point rail to point of frog is 5.25 inchs. No way is that a number 4.

Another tip off is the fact that , in a vague manner,turnouts have what John Armstrong referred to a "curve equivlent radius" or something along that order. Take a gander at the curve a train would take moving from lower left entry to lower right. If this was a number four, or even a number six, the curve would be much, much sharper. This is a large radius piece of trackwork.\, and like all Peco products, is excellent.

Regards,

Benny

Benny, that's right, a PECO slip switch is a #4.something, almost a #5, or a frog angle of 12 degrees - the NMRA has converted frog numbers to angles for more than 50 years now, RP-12.3

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/rp12_3.html

If you read my earlier posts I corrected my #4 comment long before you posted anything.

  

Motley

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

richhotrain

UP 4-12-2

In the model world, double slip turnouts have generally been considered to be a maintenance and derailment headache.  Personally, I would prefer Peco's over Shinohara.

My double slip is a Walthers Shinohara, and I have no such problems, except for the occasional "operator error".

Rich

Same here my Walthers Shinohara slips work fine. Personally I have no use for PECO with their sharp angle, 12 degree = #4, and the their sprung throw bars. Half the stuff I own will not go through a #4 anything, and most of the rest should not go through a number 4 just based on looks.

Sheldon

Sheldon,

I have the Peco code 75 double slip SL-190, and they are equivalent to a #5 switch.

Agreed, 12 degrees is in between a #4 and a #5, very close to #5 - and I still don't want any PECO turnouts.

Sheldon

I am use to working with ATLAS track, their #4 is really a #4.5 at 12.5 degrees, that promped me to make the first comment - which I corrected.

But a slip switch is not like a wye.

As for substitution radius, so what? I start all my curves with spiral easements, so I expect the diverging route of a turnout to be much larger radius than any curve it leads into.

OK, you like PECO track, I don't. I don't like curved frogs, I don't like sprung throw bars, I don't like their wiring choices. And I don't like their high prices.

My minimum radius is 36", I use mostly #8 turnouts on the mainline, and #6's elsewhere. And I hand lay some of my special trackwork.

Sheldon

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 4:20 PM

Benny, take the commercial product in question and lay one straight-through rail on a drawn base line on a paper or cardstock substrate.  Then make ticks along the straight-through rail that crosses it.  Remove the double slip and connect the dots with a straight line.  Measuring the angle between will give you the angle of divergence.  Measuring the distance from the crossing point to a point where the divergence reaches one unit will give you the number of both acute angle frogs.

Now, take a normal turnout with the same frog number and set it on top of the double slip.  Unless the double slip has some wierd geometry the two will match one straight and one curved route point-for-point.  The normal turnout can be rotated 180 degrees and it will have the same match with the other acute angle frog.  Flip it over and it wil coincide with the other two pairs of points.

Next, take a true wye turnout with the same frog # and see where the rail ends at the points wind up.

Finally, take a wye turnout that matches the point and curved rail geometry of the double slip, and check out where the frog and the other route's end rails wind up...

Don't take my word for this - even though I've been handlaying exotic specialwork for better than half a century and studying it for even longer.  Draw the lines and play with templates (or assembled turnouts.)  I'm sure you'll find the results educational.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with appropriate specialwork)

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 4:24 PM

Locked at the request of the original poster.

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