Used guitar strings are great sources for small wire .009" diameter and up. Often you can find .010" .011" and .012" which are perfect for grabs. Just hit up a guitar shop by you and see if they have any old used guitar strings they wouldn't mind giving you....most often they will end up in the trash otherwise.
Chris Palomarez
Thanks Wayne:
Obviously to model at your level there are a wide variety of resources necessary. Up until now I have not paid too much attention to the resources available on the prototypes. That will need to change.
One thing I can say is that your version of "good enough" and my current version of "good enough" are a long ways apart. I do hope that in the future, once I actually have a layout, that my interests will turn to detailing more accurately. That would seem to be a more logical and rewarding goal than simply buying more RTR.
Thanks for setting the bar!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave, in my opinion, the best resources for proto-specific details are photos, drawings, or actual on-site observation of the prototype. I've also used magazine and on-line articles in which the author has utilised similar resources. Even if one is creating a totally free-lanced layout, emulating prototypical practices will enhance its realism.Regarding the models shown in my earlier post, the free-lanced MLW FPA-4 (an old Model Power unit) was based on a photo I had taken of a VIA unit in service. with most of the grabs placed as on the real one. The dual light on the nose door and the icicle breakers on the roof are courtesy of modeller's licence, and the paint scheme is based on the CNR's freight scheme for cab units - the prototype originally wore CNR's passenger scheme, in which the lower body panels were black. Here's one of the photos which I took of the VIA loco:
The Rail Shop carbon black hopper was built pretty-much as outlined in the instructions, although I added most of the major brake piping components, as they're fairly visible on a car of this type. The pipe routing was based on a Cal-Scale info sheet, included with their AB brake set, and modified to suit this particular car. The Rail Shop instructions included a good photo of the real car, which was a great aid in lettering the car.
The CNR T-3-a 2-10-2 was built for a friend and was based on an old Akane USRA 2-10-2, much like its prototype was built from an ex-Boston & Albany USRA loco. I worked from a couple of prototype photos and a couple of photos of an older model built by someone else. Here's the original Akane loco, with the as-yet-unmodified Bachmann tender:
...and the finished model:
...and a photo of the real one (from Mainline Modeler magazine, from the Charles T. Felstead collection)
The Pennsy X-29 express boxcar was built from a Red Caboose kit, using photos of the real car, now in-service as a HEP-type car on the Kiski Junction RR. I built three models of this car, a 1930s version for my own layout, a '50s version for the friend who owns the 2-10-2, and a '40s version for our mutual friend, who was retiring as the Chief of Operations of the Kiski. The car's original number (originally in freight service) and its number as an express car are stencilled on the inside of the doors.
The AT&SF, Michigan Central, and Southern SU-class boxcar were all built using photos in Ted Culotta's excellent resource book on freight cars "Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual - Volume 1: Box & Automobile Cars". The Santa Fe car is a bit of a stand-in, with the most compromises, while the NYC/MC car is a little more accurate. The unique-looking Southern car is probably the most accurate of the three, but still has some concessions to the MDC model which was its starting point. I don't model any of these roads specifically, so I accept these stand-ins as "good enough". In addition to the numerous photos in the book, there's good background info on the cars, too, which often helps with model construction.
The CIL tankcar is a car made simply to provide another piece of Canadian rolling stock for my free-lanced layout, which is based in southwestern Ontario. It follows prototypical practices and is based on photos of several different prototype cars, with the lettering applied according to the Black Cat decal sheet's lettering diagram - another car "good enough" for my purposes.
Wayne
Wayne:
What resources do you use to determine what details are accurate for a specific model?
Thanks
Thanks for your kind words, Dave.
dknelson* MR had a monthly column called "Kinks." By the time they compiled many decades worth into a book, they titled it 764 Helpful Hints. Good thing too as my folks would have been unlikely to get me a copy of "764 Kinks" for Christmas.
Nice clean work, as usual, from Wayne. Note that phosphor bronze wire that he used for some applications is available from Tichy and is in stock at Walthers
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/293-1101
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/293-1102
Someone asked about the grab iron bending jig that MicroMark sells. it is a version of an old hint, or "kink," as MR used to call them, before that word took on a more disturbing overtone I suppose*, and I recall one guy who took a needle nose pliers and milled in a seried of deeper grooves at various places on the pliers so that grabs of varying widths could be made quite easily.
The Walthers catalog shows similar jigs from San Juan Car Company and American Model Builders.
Dave Nelson
* MR had a monthly column called "Kinks." By the time they compiled many decades worth into a book, they titled it 764 Helpful Hints. Good thing too as my folks would have been unlikely to get me a copy of "764 Kinks" for Christmas.
If the brass wire you are trying to use is too brittle, you can always try to anneal (soften) it by heating it very hot with a torch then letting it cool SLOWLY. Do this two or three times and the wire should bend without breaking.
Hornblower
last mountain & eastern hogger It looks very interesting and think at some point I will get it. Right now I am too busy with other aspects of the layout and it is in the $36.00 range.
It looks very interesting and think at some point I will get it. Right now I am too busy with other aspects of the layout and it is in the $36.00 range.
I use thin brass wire, .012-.015". You can make your own grabiron jig very easily.
Method one:
Take a piece of plastic or brass. Along one side draw lines to your grabiron widths parallel with the edge. Mark a line perperndiculer to the edge from the edge across the line. At the intersection of the two lines drill a hole slightly larger in diameter.
Stick one end of the brass wire in the hole, bend the wire over towards the edge, line it up with the perpendicular line. Bend the free end over the edge of the jig. Slide the wire up out of the jig and trim the legs.
Method two:
Get a pair of needle nose pliers with tapered jaws that are at least as wide as the grab irons you want to make. Paint the sides of the jaws a light color. measure the width of the jaws and mark with a fine point marker (Sharpie) the location where the jaws are the width of the grab iron.
Put a piece of wire in the pliers at the spot you marked, clamp witht he pliers and bend the ends over the sides of the pliers jaws. Remove the wire and trim the legs.
I like to use flush cutting pliers to cut the wire (available from Xuron and Radio Shack).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I have used a variety of materials for grab irons, including .015" piano wire for the vertical grabs/handrails on this diesel. The drop-style grabs on the side of the nose are, if I recall correctly, pre-formed phosphor-bronze ones from Tichy:
This carbon black covered hopper from Rail Shop uses Detail Associates .012" stainless steel wire for all of the straight grabirons and , while the drop-style grabs on the car's ends were formed from DA .012" brass wire:
The curved grabirons on this tender's ladder are DA .012" brass wire. Due to the curves, the ladder had to be soldered together while in-place on the plastic tender:
The rear ladder was soldered together on a jig. The stiles were formed from DA .010"x.030" flat brass bar:
All of the grabirons on this Red Caboose X-29 boxcar were formed from DA .012" soft brass wire. This material allows drop grabs to be easily formed in a simple plastic jig, especially useful if your prototype used non-standard grab iron widths:
Lettering is from Champ:
These modified Train Miniature boxcars used Tichy pre-formed drop-style grabirons. They're made from phosphor-bronze wire and stand up to handling better than brass ones:
Here's an example of non-standard width grabs. Because they're straight rather than drop-style, they could have been formed from .012" phosphor-bronze or similar-size stainless steel, but all I had on-hand at the time was brass:
Brass wire is a good choice for curved grabirons, such as those used on tank cars, as the curve may be rough-formed before installation, then, once on the car, easily adjusted to follow the curves of the tank itself. I use such grabs on all of my tank cars, replacing the over-size plastic ones which come with Proto, Intermountain, and other ones, both kits and r-t-r. This is a shortened Varney tank on a Tichy underframe:
To summarise, .010" or .012" wire is suitable for most HO scale grabirons (.011" scales out to about an inch). For long vertical grabs, such as those on cab-style diesels or steam loco tenders, .015" is probably more appropriate.Soft brass wire, like that offered by Detail Associates, is easy to work with and will withstand several re-bendings before it hardens and breaks.
Phosphor-bronze wire bends fairly easily, and will withstand some re-bending before breaking, while stainless steel wire is difficult to bend (not good for drop-style grabs unless your bending jig is substantially built), and may be re-bent perhaps once or twice before breaking. It is very durable once in place.
Piano wire (hardened, springy steel) will withstand very little re-bending, but is very durable once installed. I prefer it for handrails on hood-style diesels, especially to replace those difficult-to-paint plastic ones.
If you're forming your own grab irons, all of these wire types may be cut using the heel of an old X-Acto #11 blade. Working on a hard surface (I do most of my modelling on a sheet of glass), and while restraining both the wire and the piece to be cut-off, simply press down firmly, snicking-off the formed grabiron. Stainless steel and piano wire are a little harder to cut using this method, but using the blade to roll the wire a couple of times before pressing down usually does the trick. It's a good idea to wear eye protection when using this method, but it gives a very clean cut, usually requiring little or no clean-up.
I have noticed in the last few Micro Mark flyers that they have a bending tool for various sizes of Grabs.
If anyone has this tool and is using it, could you please give us a short tutorial on it and your opinion on it's benefits, this would be appreciated.
Johnboy out................................... ????
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Try staples from a stapler, they do come in different sizes, but any one will do, they bend well and easy to use and the price is right.
I typically use .012" brass in HO. Occasionally you'll get a piece, or even a package, that tends to break when you want it to bend. It still seems to be a good material overall, and most of it I've used bends just fine.
Spring steel wire can work also, but .020" is quite large for HO at least. It might be worth a try in smaller sizes, but as you've already observed it can be unpleasant to work with.
Every so often there will be someone tempted to recommend a softer material like floral wire. Grabs made with it don't stand up to normal handling without deforming, so it's to be avoided.
Rob Spangler
I was trying to make some grab irons for a B-unit engine the other day and had difficulty finding a suitable wire for them. I tried brass (0.015) and it tended to break as you put a 90 degree bend on it. I also tried 0.020 spring wire, but found it difficult to cut, bend and trim.
What do most people use for this effort?
RicZ