What order are Passenger Cars connected??

[rexhea]

What is the rule of thumb for connecting passenger cars. I would guess that RPO and baggage would be at the head end, coaches in the middle, and sleepers [zzz] to the rear. I have no guess where the diner car [dinner] would be. And if you have the observation/club at the rear then do the sleepers connect just forward of them. (I'm going to have to take railfanning more seriously.[:)])

But, then I think if the RPO and baggage are at the front, how do they get to the mail and etc... since they are usually spotted past the smaller stations. The last time I boarded a train at our local Depot, I had to walk through several cars to get to my coach seat , but I don't remember what cars.

[D)] REX

[Anonymous]

Depends on time period and railroad. Most were RPO, baggage, sleeper, coach,diner, observation. When I rode Amtrak Empire Builder several years ago I remember it as baggage, sleeper, diner, lounge/observation (dome), coach, observation.

[Anonymous]

Pax train consist makeup and ordering depends on the railroad, the specific train, and the era. Some useful examples. ATSF and a number of other roads ran their mixed first/coach trains in the late 50's/60's with the chair cars at the front, diner, lounge (or reversed, or lounge-diner-slpr. lounge in the case of the later SF Chief; or single car diner-lounge/LC diner lounge), then sleepers. When the train was broken up enroute, cars came off both ends. SAL ran theirs the other way on the Silver trains that originally started out all coach--slpr. lounge, sleepers, diner, chair cars, chair-tavern-obs. SP did the Lark similarly in its dying days--sleepers, grill car (or Russellburger car, or both, then coaches. The San Joaquin Daylight in 1967 ran with a round end observation chair car right at the front behind the RPO--beautiful view! Bags were generally split up at the front with sealed card (usually storage mail and express, the RPO, and working baggage, or RPO and working baggage were reversed. ATSF 23-24 regularly ran with this and then sealed bags on the rear as well into LA. PA Ltd in the 60's ran with a bunch of headend, a couple of chair cars, a sleeper, and a diner-lounge bringing up the rear (because it came off at PIT). Other variations dating earlier into the 50's had different ordering. For example, the MKT-SLSF TX Special in its heyday usually ordered chair cars, chair-buffet-lounge, several sleepers, diner (assumption was that the sleeper passengers were the diner clientele) more sleepers, sleeper-lounge-obs. Some of the Zephyrs, SP Sunbeam/Hustler ("TX Daylight") and Rockets had round end diner-lounge-obs (DLO) cars, so the trains were ordered chair cars, sleepers, DLO. Of course, the ultra-deluxe trains like the Super, Chief, Broadway, General, Century etc. were all sleeper and had lounges and sometimes diners interspersed in the consist for customer convenience. SP's multi-unit diner-lounges also sometimes complicated things, and most of their overnight trains had a blind end tail car that was just a 10-6 sleeper with a rounded roof and taillight on one end. And, on the dark side, in some states during Jim Crow, the first pax car on the train was usually a divided or segregated chair car.

With ATK, anything goes. They don't like to switch anyway, so they tend to block trains like the TX Eagle, Sunset Builder and Lake Shore so the through cars (coaches and sleepers) are in a group to make switching easier, so a sleeper can and does usually wind up in the middle of a block of coaches, or the diner is on the head end of the train.

I guess my advice is to find the train(s) and era that interest you, and do some research. Usually the specific RR historical society will have access to the specific info you need.

Hope this isn't too frustrating.

[johncolley]

Back in the olden days '40's thru '60's we used to run RPO's, Bags, coaches, dome coach (if scheduled) diner (long trains sometimes had 2 diners with kitchens together) , sleepers, observation lounge. At some major stops such as engine service/crew change they often switched out some of the head end cars especially mail for that location and surrounding area, adding new cars for the final destination. In some areas the sleepers were taken off to be serviced and sent back on the next night train. Read the article in the latest MR for more info.

[BR60103]

I have a pagefull of Canadian passenger consists in front of me.
One Canadian in July has:
3 F40PH, baggage, 2 coaches, dome, 3 sleepers, dome, diner, 6 sleepers, diner,6 sleepers, dome, diner, 3 sleepers, dome-sleeper-obs.
(the domes have a snack bar/light lunch facility which is the only eatery for coach
passengers)
This is typical of the train (but long), although there are usually fewer sleepers and some domes and diners may be omitted.
The Ocean/Chaleur runs combined for most of the trip. It had 2 baggage, coaches, dome, diner, sleepers, coaches, dome, diner, sleepers, dome-obs. The sets would be separated just ahead of the second set of coaches, and one of the baggages added to it.

[Roadtrp]

The main thing I've noticed on current Amtrak passenger trains is that they seem to configure the consist to minimize coach passenger traffic through a sleeper. In other words, they generally try to make sure that most coach passengers can get to the lounge car or the dining car without going through sleeper cars. This usually means that sleepers are either at the head or the end of the train. Observation cars are no more; they have been replaced by the lounge cars.

[:)]

[rexhea]

Thanks all.
All the post make a lot of sense as to the why's. I really didn't put much thought into passenger operation until the OCT MR article. Then I realized I had no idea about car placement in the consist. My passenger service is 50/60's, Southern RR, but its freelance so I have a little bit of latitude

Pretty slick how they switch out the diners and sleepers for servicing. I always thought they went all the way - one way.[:)]

I need a good book on prototype operation. Any suggestions?

REX

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

The main thing I've noticed on current Amtrak passenger trains is that they seem to configure the consist to minimize coach passenger traffic through a sleeper. In other words, they generally try to make sure that most coach passengers can get to the lounge car or the dining car without going through sleeper cars. This usually means that sleepers are either at the head or the end of the train. Observation cars are no more; they have been replaced by the lounge cars.

[:)]

I have to agree with roadtrp. What I have seen here is the same. The crew sleeper (called Transition Sleeper) is ahead of the passenger sleepers. Should their be private owned railroad cars they are at the end of the train.

[Anonymous]

The only consitant thing with passenger trains is that combines/baggeage/RPO's/Express cars were/are always at the head for fast exchanges, other than that, the make up is pretty much by era/roadname.

[Anonymous]

The best book out there on passenger train consists and operations during the 1960s is Kalmbach's "Twilight of the Great Trains." It includes consist diagrams for many trains, showing car type, position in the train, and locations at which swithching was performed. And there's a chapter on the Southern.

[ndbprr]

A couple of more thoughts. Often diners were an out qand back type of arrangement. Meaning they would be tacked on the back end and travel out for say two hours on one trains and back on a ttrain going the opposite way. That way they could serve two trains. There were also buffet lounges where drinks and sandwiches could be obtained. Longer trains often had more than one diner so the walk wasn't as far but we rarely run trains of this length. bagage and mail cars weren't necessarily on the head end. If they were to be dropped off in route they were carried on the rear so they could just be uncoupled and switched after the train left town. RPO's were usually placed between the mail storage cars which could be numerous. Some trains had eight or ten mail cars. This minimized the walking for the crew as they finished a car in route.

[AntonioFP45]

If this helps:

From the early 70s thru the mid 80s the Amtrak Silver Meteor and Silver Star that ran from Tampa to New York had this typical arrangement:

One or two SDP40fs, Baggage, Crew Dormitory (sometimes), 3 to 5 coaches, lounge, diner, 2 to 3 sleepers.

The Floridian had a similar arrangement except that it had a dome car as the lounge.

I rode these trains and noticed that the diner almost always separated the sleepers and the coaches. When the diner was removed from the Tampa section in the early 90s, the lounge car was usually the car separating coaches and sleepers.

10-4!

[cacole]

Recent Amtrak trains through Arizona on the old SP Sunset Route have their materials handling cars (U.S. mail) at the rear -- sometimes more of them than passenger coaches.

[markpierce]

On the 1960s Southern Pacific Overland between Emervyville CA and Ogden, UT, it was with great relief when the Union Pacific substituted a diner (with meals cooked on board served on tablecloth) for S.P.'s automat car with premade sandwiches at Ogden, UT.

[passengerfan]

Major passenger trains of the West were trainlined as follows:
NP NORTH COAST LIMITED Water Baggage, RPO/Dormitory,Slumbercoach, Coaches, Travellers rest, Dining car, sleeping cars and Sleeper Lounge Observation.
GN EMPIRE BUILDER Storage Mail, RPO Baggage, Baggage Dormitory, Coaches, Ranch Car, Dining Car , Dome Lounge ,Sleeping Cars ,Observation.
CMSTP&P OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA Mail Express, Baggage Dormitory, Coaches, Coffee Shop Tap Car, Coach Touralux Combination, Touralux Cars, Dining Car, Sleeper, Sleeper Skytop Lounge Observation.
UP CITY OF PORTLAND Baggage Dorm, Coaches, Dining Car, Sleepers, Lounge Observation,
CP CANADIAN Baggage Dormitory, Coach, Dome Coach Cafe, Sleeper, Dining Car, Sleepers, Dome Sleeper Lounge Obs.
AT&SF HI-LEVEL EL CAPITAN Storage Mail Car, Hi-Level Adaptor Baggage Dormitory, Step Down Hi-Level Coach, 2-Hi-Level Coaches,Hi-Level Dining Car, Hi-Level Lounge Car, 3-Hi-Level Coaches, Hi-Level Step Down Coach
AT&SF SUPER CHIEF RPO, Baggage Car, Dormitory Buffet Loungew Car, Sleeping Cars, Dining Car, Pleasure Dome, Sleeping Cars, Sleeper Lounge Observation
Hope this helps.

[ericsp]

I want Vista Domes on my SP Daylight train, so my consist is fictional. The consist is as follows RPO, 2 Baggage Cars, 10-6 Sleeper, Vista Dome, Diner, Coach, Vista Dome, Observation. I also plan to add another diner and another sleeper and/or a slumber coach. This brings up a questions, should I have 2 or 3 F7s pulling it (I am guessing 3)?

[markpierce]

If you have no personal preference, I'd suggest 2 locomotive units if they can handle your grades. This would give a better prototypical proportion between motive power and rolling stock.

[gmpullman]

Some "rule of thumb" thoughts... Generally the RPO was right behind the locomotive. I remember hearing of problems with water seepage in the front end door while scooping water. This is a problem that NYC had with developments in high speed water scoops. Sometimes the RPO would be bracketed with a mail storage car at each end so postal crews could sort out of one car and into the trailing car. Also they wanted a baggage car between the RPO and the rest of the train to keep anyone from entering the RPO from the train. Usually the "working" baggage car was just ahead of the coaches.
Ideally, the diner would separate the coaches from the Pullmans to restrict coach passengers from wandering into and disturbing the first class passengers.
New York Central usually oriented diners with the kitchen trailing to keep cooking odors out of the dining room. NYC also oriented the Pullmans to have the room side facing the view of the Hudson (River, that is). Usually, the "local" coaches were near the head end so the train could make one stop for local passengers while working the mail and express.
Of course, this all depended on the main function of the particular train. At one time ALL diners on the Central were set out and cut in at Buffalo as dining operations were a separate entity for "lines east" and "lines west".
Amtrak Mail storage and express cars do not have HEP trainline connections so they must be handled at the rear of the train.

[ndbprr]

nearly all the Amtrak trains I have seen coming into Union Station in Chicago have the mail, express cars on the rear so they can be switch3ed out while the train is still unloading. In years past some diners would be on the rear so they could go out on one train and back on a second. Almost any types of car could be on the rear if it was being switched out at an imtermedate stopping point.

[SpaceMouse]

I'm going to show my ignorance once again. What is an RPO car? Guess: Rail Post Office.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I'm going to show my ignorance once again. What is an RPO car? Guess: Rail Post Office.

You're not ignorant, but yes it is Railway Post Office. They ran regularly until President Lyndon Johnson in the 60s helped make sure that the airline industry would be the primary benificiary of getting the mails around the U.S.

[ereimer]

my railroad just tacks a combine on the end of a freight train and calls it a mixed [:)]

[cnw4001]

The tendency before Amtrak was to also place the diner in a location which minimized traffic through the sleepers and first class cars. Thus the diner would be in the middle between the coaches and the sleepers/first class.

As noted it could be placed on the end if it came off before the full distance traveled by the train. I remember that trains would have a diner Indianapolis-Cincinnati thus the westbound diner came off at Indianapolis and returned east. Not on all trains.

[BRAKIE]

Now recall a passenger train could be made up this way as passenger service decline.
Express,express,mail storage,mail storage,mail storage,baggage,baggage,coach,coach,coach,Pullman,diner..You see the dinner and Pullman could be dropped en route..
The express cars was more then likely REA cars..The mail storage was more then likely baggage cars assigned to mail service.

In the last days a passenger train could carry more express and mail cars then passenger cars..Some trains had the Pullmans dropped Then a full diner was replace by a snack car.
I can recall seeing once proud name trains reduce to a E8 or two and 2-3 coaches in their last days..[V]

[TBat55]

Switched cars at each end, but diner in the middle for dual access (also serviced a lot):

Let S=Switched and NS=Not Switched:
(engine) S NS S S NS S

Train pulls up and engine comes off. Split the train in half for the diner:
S NS S S NS S
Now switch out the cars at each end, out the train back to together, & add the engine.
Makes sense and just enough fun.

[oldno9]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rexhea
I really didn't put much thought into passenger operation until the OCT MR article.

I need a good book on prototype operation. Any suggestions?

REX

<p>
<p>
I have been searching for the same information. I switched from years in HO to N scale specifically for the ability to model passenger operations. MR's recent articles have been helpful. I did a search very recently on the Index of Magazines and came up with the following as good candidates (but have yet to aquire any):<p>
<p>
MR JUL/04<p>
MR OCT/04<p>
MR AUG/96<p>
MR JUL/93<p>
MR OCT/93<p>
MR NOV/74<p>
MR JUN/51<p>
MR Planning 1997<p>
Operation Handbook for Model Railroads - Mallery, Carstens Pub 1991, 2ed<p>

<p>
One big score was a trip to one of the area shops where I happened upon a copy of Tony Koester's (GO BOILER'S) "Realistic Model Railroad Operation", Kalmbach, 2003. I have been pouring through it. A bit light on very specific details but well worth every cent. He mentions the Oct, 93 MR article as well (anybody got a copy?) for a car routing scheme.<p>

One other source I have found is Old Line Graphics has some sort of passenger car routing system (currently out of stock) that presumably works off of the tried and true car forwarding system that I have only read about for years. I will repost if am ever able to get/test a set.<p>

Beyond that, get a few timetables, employee and public, for the road(s) you model, an issue of the Official Railway Guide for the period you model, and as many books on your road as you can to study to piece together passenger operations for your locale.<p>

The issue I am trying to sort out is, in all reality, passenger trains (or in my case, the streamlined name trains) usually covered vast territories making it impossible to model in my space, time, and budget. Therefore, I am looking at emphasizing on station operations as a result.