And, having dcc and sound, may well be a very positive contributing factor in getting young people interested in model railroading. I've had several teens and pre teems in my layout room with no sound on at first. The reaction is ok, I guess... they're interested somewhat in the trains running silently around the main. But then I press a Function 8 throttle key on the locomotive and the chuff chuff of the steamers and all the sounds of a diesel fill the room and suddenly it's a whole new ball game.
"Is that coming from the trains?", I'm frequently asked.
They are very used to computer games with great sound effects.. explosions, footsteps, laser guns and the like. Turn their sound off at your own peril. Turn the sound off on a model railroad and, to most of them, it's like watching a silent movie.
I know, many older modelers don't give a happy rat's behind what the younger generation likes. But as with anything else, the more the merrier. More modeler's, more money spent on model railroad 'stuff', the better quality the 'stuff' through competition, the more competition the better the price of the 'stuff', the happier I am.
And this is coming from a 68 year old.
Thankfully the mfg's of 'stuff' still make engines in DC, and thankfully that 'stuff' is dcc ready!
(some of it even has sound!)
Jarrell
TA462 ATLANTIC CENTRAL: TA462, One additional thought or explaination - it could be there is a whole group of hundreds or thousands of lone wolf DC modelers all around you? How would you know? Not everyone likes clubs. I know that to be a fact around here, and I know that the "social types" are almost all into DCC. Sheldon Sheldon, I'm kind of high profile in my area. Everyone knows me or has heard of me that is into model railroading. I'm good friends with 4 reputable hobby shop owners and I know probably 90% of their customers. I'm friends with numerous vendors that you would see all over Ontario train shows. Dave Cool from Canadian Express Line, Dave Goodhead who owns Hobbyworx, I could go on and on. Trust me when I say this, DC is dead. Nobody builds DC layouts anymore and I'm not talking little 4x8's. DC locomotives will always be a huge part of model railroading, not because they are DC but because most people don't want sound right away in their loco's and converting one to run on DCC is very simple. Sound loco's will eventually pass DC locomotives in sales because once you have DCC the next big step is sound loco's. Sound isn't for everyone but everyone will have at least one sound loco. I know your a die hard DC guy but take a honest good look around you, DCC and sound loco's are here to stay.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: TA462, One additional thought or explaination - it could be there is a whole group of hundreds or thousands of lone wolf DC modelers all around you? How would you know? Not everyone likes clubs. I know that to be a fact around here, and I know that the "social types" are almost all into DCC. Sheldon
TA462,
One additional thought or explaination - it could be there is a whole group of hundreds or thousands of lone wolf DC modelers all around you? How would you know? Not everyone likes clubs.
I know that to be a fact around here, and I know that the "social types" are almost all into DCC.
Sheldon
Sheldon, I'm kind of high profile in my area. Everyone knows me or has heard of me that is into model railroading. I'm good friends with 4 reputable hobby shop owners and I know probably 90% of their customers. I'm friends with numerous vendors that you would see all over Ontario train shows. Dave Cool from Canadian Express Line, Dave Goodhead who owns Hobbyworx, I could go on and on. Trust me when I say this, DC is dead. Nobody builds DC layouts anymore and I'm not talking little 4x8's. DC locomotives will always be a huge part of model railroading, not because they are DC but because most people don't want sound right away in their loco's and converting one to run on DCC is very simple. Sound loco's will eventually pass DC locomotives in sales because once you have DCC the next big step is sound loco's. Sound isn't for everyone but everyone will have at least one sound loco. I know your a die hard DC guy but take a honest good look around you, DCC and sound loco's are here to stay.
jacon12 And, having dcc and sound, may well be a very positive contributing factor in getting young people interested in model railroading. I've had several teens and pre teems in my layout room with no sound on at first. The reaction is ok, I guess... they're interested somewhat in the trains running silently around the main. But then I press a Function 8 throttle key on the locomotive and the chuff chuff of the steamers and all the sounds of a diesel fill the room and suddenly it's a whole new ball game. "Is that coming from the trains?", I'm frequently asked. They are very used to computer games with great sound effects.. explosions, footsteps, laser guns and the like. Turn their sound off at your own peril. Turn the sound off on a model railroad and, to most of them, it's like watching a silent movie. I know, many older modelers don't give a happy rat's behind what the younger generation likes. But as with anything else, the more the merrier. More modeler's, more money spent on model railroad 'stuff', the better quality the 'stuff' through competition, the more competition the better the price of the 'stuff', the happier I am. And this is coming from a 68 year old. Thankfully the mfg's of 'stuff' still make engines in DC, and thankfully that 'stuff' is dcc ready! (some of it even has sound!) Jarrell
Jarrell, I think that is a very good point. Younger people demand the latest and greatest, they always have, even if they do not understand the real benefits of the technology. One of the worst things that young people perceive as being detrimental to the elevation of their popularity is being caught with old technology, no matter what social circles they choose. This is coming from the parent of a teenager and younger kids.
I think the sound locomotives are very cool, and I would think that evolution in software will allow model trains to do many more things in the future, which will always keep people buying, and the hobby going. Manufacturer's will always have something to promote or announce, and that keeps the hobby fresh.
When I hear a sound locomotive at a LHS or a club, I think it is a wonderment what can be done. My problem is, the coolness of it wears off after about 20 minutes. Then I realize that real trains tend to make very objectionable noises, and that the models that try to capture those noises reinforce my desire to not live next to railroad tracks.
I'm seeking non-on-board sound for the occasional horn at road crossings, but the constant noise being simulated by the models is not pleasant nor is it something I want to pay for since it would be turned off most of the time.
Edit: I'm speaking of diesel models. I have not heard steam models with sound. The chuff-chuff might be more appealing than the sound of traction motors.
- Douglas
jacon12 Trust me when I say this, DC is dead. Nobody builds DC layouts anymore and I'm not talking little 4x8's. DC locomotives will always be a huge part of model railroading, not because they are DC but because most people don't want sound right away in their loco's and converting one to run on DCC is very simple. Sound loco's will eventually pass DC locomotives in sales because once you have DCC the next big step is sound loco's. Sound isn't for everyone but everyone will have at least one sound loco. I know your a die hard DC guy but take a honest good look around you, DCC and sound loco's are here to stay.
Trust me when I say this, DC is dead.
Nobody builds DC layouts anymore and I'm not talking little 4x8's. DC locomotives will always be a huge part of model railroading, not because they are DC but because most people don't want sound right away in their loco's and converting one to run on DCC is very simple. Sound loco's will eventually pass DC locomotives in sales because once you have DCC the next big step is sound loco's. Sound isn't for everyone but everyone will have at least one sound loco. I know your a die hard DC guy but take a honest good look around you, DCC and sound loco's are here to stay.
LOL
Jarrell,
I wanted to say this myself, but hesitated to do so.
From all I know, you are dead on.
Rich
Alton Junction
swoodnj Without...but I like sound. Let me elaborate. When Atlas first released their GP38s and GP40s with sound I bought numerous undecs. Like many projects they sat on the shelf for a couple of years before my attention turned to them. By then the Tsunami had just come out, and when I compared a Tsunami to the Geeps with the early QSI I was quite disappointed. Since sound will continue to evolve I've made most loco purchases since that time without sound, with the intent to add the most current decoder when I'm ready to take the loco out of storage and put it into service. I'd rather not have to pay for sound twice!
Without...but I like sound. Let me elaborate.
When Atlas first released their GP38s and GP40s with sound I bought numerous undecs. Like many projects they sat on the shelf for a couple of years before my attention turned to them. By then the Tsunami had just come out, and when I compared a Tsunami to the Geeps with the early QSI I was quite disappointed.
Since sound will continue to evolve I've made most loco purchases since that time without sound, with the intent to add the most current decoder when I'm ready to take the loco out of storage and put it into service. I'd rather not have to pay for sound twice!
This is what I've been saying all along, all sound is not created equal to my ear. And I realize this whole thing about sound is a highly personal choice for a variety of reasons. I have some of the earlier QSI offerings also, a GP 9 comes to mind. But I have a recently purchased Genesis SD 70 m2 with Tsunami sound.
No comparison.
Still, I fully understand and respect the no sound group. A friend dropped by this afternoon, one of the best modelers in these parts, and as we sat and talked and drank our coffee a light Mikado was making it's rounds on the layout, silently.. except for an occasional click of the wheels.
It was nice.
jacon12 People who wear hearing aids, I have a couple of friends that do, find the sounds a bit more annoying/uncomfortable than those that don't wear them. I get it.
People who wear hearing aids, I have a couple of friends that do, find the sounds a bit more annoying/uncomfortable than those that don't wear them.
I get it.
Right you are! If the sound is turned up enough for me to hear it, it is way too loud and nothing but an annoyance. I have operated on a friends layout where he keeps the sound level very low. Most people seem to like it that way. I once asked him how I can tell where the train is in staging (hidden). He says press function 8. I press Function 8, nothing! "So where is the train" He gives a very strange look!!! I have a serious high frequency hearing loss.
I can understand why many people think sound equipped locomotives are just the greatest thing since sliced bread, but as a retired musician, even when I can hear the sounds they are just wrong to my ears. Wrong octave and the wrong sounds being emphasized. May be fine for folks who have never really listened to a train before, but I just can't get warm to it at all. To each their own!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
"I'm pretty high profile......"
Maybe you are, let me tell a little story. So am I, I'm active in the well known local group, have known most of the shop owners in the Baltimore region for some 40 years now, etc. Just a few months ago, while working on one of my other hobbies, my GRAVELY tractor, I needed some custome machine work done. There is a small industrial park down the street from me and I know one of the places is a locally owned machine shop.
I went there with my drawings for the tractor parts I needed made, met the owner, struck up a deal to have my parts made. Over the several weeks and several visits necessary to complete that project we had several nice conversations and got to know each other. Turns out, he has a basement FULL of model trains, 1000 sq ft layout, maybe more. He does not shop at the local shop which is between his shop and my house (less than a block), he does not attend local events, he has never been to one of the many open houses put on by our group members. He is completely off the radar of other local modelers and did not even know our group existed. "We" didn't know about him, he didn't know about us.
"nobody builds DC layouts anymore........."
Somebody forgot to give Master Model Railroader Kermit Paut that memo. His layout, recently on the NMRA convention tour, has a DC progressive cab control system using Aristo Wireless radio throttles AND can run DCC - at the same time. Check it out in the online mag Model Railroad Hobbiest - March 2011. Here is some info:
http://www.bayrails.com/layouts.php?m=paul
I ignored the memo,
I too an currently building a 40 x 25 layout using Aristo Wireless throttles, CTC, complete signaling and modified version of Ed Ravenscrofts MZL control. Which is in many ways similar to Progressive Cab Control.
I know of many other, large still DC, built in the last 10-15 years, layouts with DC control - many of them Aristo Wireless Throttles - and some older layouts that have upgraded to wireless DC.
Use of sound, and control system chioce, if carefully evaluated, are choices made to meet specfic goals. Sure, many people just "go with the flow" and maybe they are that way in real life too. But some of us actually examine what we like, want, need, and desire to accomplish - then make our choices.
From what I read on here, for many of you DCC is the best choice. But not everyone in this hobby has the same interests or goals. And many of you might be surprised how many people see the hobby completely differently from you.
We are a 3 generation model railroad family(with others as part of our group) in large part due to sound and DCC. It has helped bring in the younger generation by adding a dimension to the op sessions my son and his friends can identify with. For example when we go to one of the local yards and he hears a loco, one of the first things he does is to try and identify the loco by it's sound and then visually spot it to verify.
Modeling sound has become part of the process of the units he builds now. Not to just throw in sound chip and speaker, but to try and capture the fidelity of the sound. Of course a small 1" speaker can't capture the sound waves coming off of a real loco meeting your body or the vibration of the prime mover, but we can do our best. Sometimes using very large stereo speakers helps capture that effect and so we can MU with multiple speakers around the layout.
We have found that larger layouts and longer trains help make the coming and going of trains with sound look and feel more prototypical.
Adding a lightbulb to the front of an engine was a big deal at one time. Adding two was even bigger. Making them directional--that was a wow factor.
All of that said, there are times I like to mute the sound and just listen to the click clack of metal wheels on metal rails.
Richard
Interesting link Sheldon, of the 23 layouts on the tour out west, only 2 are not DCC http://www.bayrails.com/layouts.php This has to be the cream of the crop, when it comes to Bay area layouts?
It seems to me that DC holds sway with 3 particular groups.
Group 1: The entry level 4x8 layout that started life as a train set. In other words the toy market that does not ever go much beyond the basic running trains in a circle.
Group 2: The long time hobbyist that is well invested in DC, has had the layout for years, and for good reason balks at the cost of conversion. Many of these types have converted to DCC, but clearly not all.
Group 3: The very top end, technically competent modeller. Guys who can design, build and maintain a very complex, comprehensive and impressive control system. These systems feature tightly integrated signaling and very realistic CTC systems Frankly, what these guys do is way beyond the capability of many of us. These guys are seeking a level of control that is not trivial with any control system.
DCC sits neatly in the middle, between group 1 and 3, and it appears now dominates the new layout market. DCC also seems to dominate the club and modular groups.
It would appear that you move in a circle of modellers in a very mature and established market, with lots of legacy DC systems and a core group of advanced DC modellers. Other posters to this thread are in areas where DCC holds sway, perhaps they are less mature markets with fewer legacy systems? Who knows?
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Wow!!! the OP asked for a simple "with or without" and look what he got. Like trying to take a drink from a firehose, way too much water.
simon1966 Interesting link Sheldon, of the 23 layouts on the tour out west, only 2 are not DCC http://www.bayrails.com/layouts.php This has to be the cream of the crop, when it comes to Bay area layouts? It seems to me that DC holds sway with 3 particular groups. Group 1: The entry level 4x8 layout that started life as a train set. In other words the toy market that does not ever go much beyond the basic running trains in a circle. Group 2: The long time hobbyist that is well invested in DC, has had the layout for years, and for good reason balks at the cost of conversion. Many of these types have converted to DCC, but clearly not all. Group 3: The very top end, technically competent modeller. Guys who can design, build and maintain a very complex, comprehensive and impressive control system. These systems feature tightly integrated signaling and very realistic CTC systems Frankly, what these guys do is way beyond the capability of many of us. These guys are seeking a level of control that is not trivial with any control system. DCC sits neatly in the middle, between group 1 and 3, and it appears now dominates the new layout market. DCC also seems to dominate the club and modular groups. It would appear that you move in a circle of modellers in a very mature and established market, with lots of legacy DC systems and a core group of advanced DC modellers. Other posters to this thread are in areas where DCC holds sway, perhaps they are less mature markets with fewer legacy systems? Who knows?
Simon, I think that is a very good analysis, and I do agree with it. Yes this is likely a "mature and established market" for model trains, it is after all the East Coast, the generally most populated area of North America, old cities, heck even old suburbs and 300 year old rural communities. While the whole world is more "mobile" these days, many of the modelers I know have lived here their whole lives, at least in this same region.
Many modelers I met as a young person in this hobby 40 years ago, still live in the same house and have the same layout - usually evolved some - as they did then - some have gone DCC/sound - some have not.
Group three - yes that's me, fully intergrated train control, turnout control, CTC, and signaling - for both display and operating sessions - that is a big part of my interest. So is actually building models, kit bashing locos, etc. Something not made easy by complex expensive onboard control and sound systems.
So consider this, I don't want sound for the reasons previously stated, I have to section (block) my track for signaling anyway, I want to do a lot of tender swaps, kit bashes, etc - what does DCC offer me except more expense?
The answer is very little for its high price tag in my application - large layout, lots of locos.
Layout based sound - yes - onboard sound still no.
Locos with DCC/sound - only at the lowest closeout prices.
Nullum est iam dictum quod non dictum sit prius.*
Terence
*"Nothing is said which has not been said before."
selector Nullum est iam dictum quod non dictum sit prius.* Terence *"Nothing is said which has not been said before."
I am sure I have heard that somewhere?
BNSFnut57 Thank you all for your opinions. The reason for the post is that I work for a hobby store that sales HO Locomotives, and the store policy was, if we were going to stock expensive, high detailed locomotives, they needed to be with sound, because no one is going to buy the NO sound Model.
Thank you all for your opinions.
The reason for the post is that I work for a hobby store that sales HO Locomotives, and the store policy was, if we were going to stock expensive, high detailed locomotives, they needed to be with sound, because no one is going to buy the NO sound Model.
It would be interesting to compare those who do or don't want sound to those who tend to actually buy from a brick and mortar store vs mostly online. Sound locomotives, properly adjusted, are a good reason to buy from a brick and mortar store. Since sound quality is in many ways dependent upon the listener; therefore, a brick and mortar store with demos is one area where a competitive advantage can be gained over online. ie, not just selling based on price, etc--but service.
Well, I guess I may be late to this party, but throwing my two cents in anyway. I think sound is a personal thing and to me, my ear, it just doesn't sound right. Someone mentioned our modeling is a willing suspension of disbelief. Unfortunately for me, the quality of sound coming out break up that disbelief rather than enhances it. That's not saying I'm against sound, I'd love it if it were right. I recall hearing a sound system back years ago at the Dayton NMRA convention that was so realistic you thought there was a train coming through the hall, but their system depended on basically driving a good set of speakers and a big bass through a stereo amp. Great sound, but not exactly something on board or for multiple trains in the room.
Now, about this old coots comment that comes up whenever someone doesn't use DCC or sound. Considering my whole life has been high tech, building mnemonic circuits out of stone knives and bearskins when a lot of folks were just a gleam in daddy's eye, I'm not exactly a technophobe. I have, however, reached the point where practical application out weighs "coolness" in my purchasing decisions. My layout is DC for example. Not because I'm afraid of DCC, but because for me it is an unneccessary expense. My layout is a simple one train plan, because that is what my prototype was. I have one block for the whole thing. I own about a half dozen locomotives total. So why spend money on something that adds no value to my hobby.
Now, should my layout change in such a way to need DCC, or should someone come out with a magic sound system, I can always add it in. Considering I built my first transistor throttle in junior high from plans in MR, hooking up a module shouldn't be too difficult, even for an old coot like me.
I am quite particular about sound.... I've run recording studios and run live sound in large venues.
The little speaker that is squeezed into HO scale engines does not do it...it physically can not and will not produce the appropriate tonality to represent a real motor. While it is representative on certain frequencies, it's not even close.
Needless to say, you won't find me spending the extra goodness knows how much money for a sound equipped loco.
Hold my beer... ya'll watch this!
80ktsClamp I am quite particular about sound.... I've run recording studios and run live sound in large venues. The little speaker that is squeezed into HO scale engines does not do it...it physically can not and will not produce the appropriate tonality to represent a real motor. While it is representative on certain frequencies, it's not even close. Needless to say, you won't find me spending the extra goodness knows how much money for a sound equipped loco.
And so it seems that many of us with a back ground in High Fidelity sound find these onboard sound systems unacceptable in sound quality.
I was at a friends layout recently, with about six or seven sound locos all going at once, most of them with their volume way to loud. After just a few minutes I retreated to the crew lounge for some chips and soda, and left the evening early.
I'm not hyper active, nor do I suffer from ADD, I don't play the TV or radio just to have "background noise", and a room so full of conversation and multiple sound locos that you can't hear any one loco (poor sound quality or not), and where you have struggle to hear a conversation with someone right next to you is not fun to me.
The results of this informal survey suggest that while I may be in the minority, it is a sizeable minority.
Same is true for DCC. I have said for some time on here that if you want sound, you need DCC. If you don't want sound, you may want to examine your other goals before going to DCC. Seems from a number of these responses I am not alone in this view either.
A note to Crandell - true, it has all been said before - but each time it is said, someone new may be paying attention.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have said for some time on here that if you want sound, you need DCC. If you don't want sound, you may want to examine your other goals before going to DCC.
I have said for some time on here that if you want sound, you need DCC. If you don't want sound, you may want to examine your other goals before going to DCC.
Sheldon,
I am not so sure that one conclusion leads to the other in this regard.
If you don't want sound, don't buy a loco equipped with sound. But, if you don't want sound, why forego DCC as a result? Just buy a DC loco and add a non-sound decoder. Or, buy a DCC equipped loco without sound.
Train Modeler BNSFnut57: Thank you all for your opinions. The reason for the post is that I work for a hobby store that sales HO Locomotives, and the store policy was, if we were going to stock expensive, high detailed locomotives, they needed to be with sound, because no one is going to buy the NO sound Model. It would be interesting to compare those who do or don't want sound to those who tend to actually buy from a brick and mortar store vs mostly online. Sound locomotives, properly adjusted, are a good reason to buy from a brick and mortar store. Since sound quality is in many ways dependent upon the listener; therefore, a brick and mortar store with demos is one area where a competitive advantage can be gained over online. ie, not just selling based on price, etc--but service. Richard
BNSFnut57: Thank you all for your opinions. The reason for the post is that I work for a hobby store that sales HO Locomotives, and the store policy was, if we were going to stock expensive, high detailed locomotives, they needed to be with sound, because no one is going to buy the NO sound Model.
Richard, that is an interesting question. As some on here know, I worked in a hobby shop in my younger days and provided all manner of customer service, simple repairs, layout and model construction advice, etc, to my customers - many of which were new to the hobby.
That said, one of the great controversies in this hobby today seems to be the growing divide between those willing and wanting to learn more advanced skills and those who expect out of the box, plug and play perfection, and see no reason why they should have to "learn" anything about how this "stuff" works.
A simple reference to this situation caused several posts to be deleated on another thread recently.
I have no problem with what others do or how they choose to enjoy the hobby, I do however feel, based on my 40 years of experiance with model trains, that especially in HO or smaller scales, a "plug and play" approach is not likely to provide a lasting or satisfing experiance. These machines are just too delicate for that - especially with the push to even better and finer detail.
But to your specific question - I use DC, I don't use sound, I buy from brick and mortar stores mostly. Even the mail order stores that I do use have brick and mortar stores for the most part. But I am way past asking for or needing that kind of help from the shop owner. And I have not bothered to test run a locomotive in a shop in some 30 years. My problems have been few, the manufcturers have generally taken care of them (except two very disapointing pieces of BLI), or the problems were so small I simply fixed them myself.
I don't have "instant gratification syndrome", I don't buy on impluse, I only buy what fits the theme of my layout, so my behavior may not be typical.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL: I have said for some time on here that if you want sound, you need DCC. If you don't want sound, you may want to examine your other goals before going to DCC. Sheldon, I am not so sure that one conclusion leads to the other in this regard. If you don't want sound, don't buy a loco equipped with sound. But, if you don't want sound, why forego DCC as a result? Just buy a DC loco and add a non-sound decoder. Or, buy a DCC equipped loco without sound. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: I have said for some time on here that if you want sound, you need DCC. If you don't want sound, you may want to examine your other goals before going to DCC.
Rich, I don't want to shift this convesation any father into the DC vs DCC debate. There are lots of reasons people don't need or want DCC to fullfill their modeling goals.
For others, sound or not, DCC is the right choice.
But based on the current technolgies available, if you want sound, and want the sound and your locos to perfom as well as possible you need DCC.
As I have explained dozens of time, DCC would ad very little to my operating scheme - at a tremedous additional cost.
Another poster just said he has a one train layout theme and does not like sound - why should he invest in DCC? It makes no sense.
Good DC throttles provide just as smooth control as DCC. Wireless DC throttles like I use provide wireless walk around.
Not everybody needs or wants the expense and complexities of DCC.
Train Modeler It would be interesting to compare those who do or don't want sound to those who tend to actually buy from a brick and mortar store vs mostly online. Sound locomotives, properly adjusted, are a good reason to buy from a brick and mortar store. Since sound quality is in many ways dependent upon the listener; therefore, a brick and mortar store with demos is one area where a competitive advantage can be gained over online.
It would be interesting to compare those who do or don't want sound to those who tend to actually buy from a brick and mortar store vs mostly online. Sound locomotives, properly adjusted, are a good reason to buy from a brick and mortar store. Since sound quality is in many ways dependent upon the listener; therefore, a brick and mortar store with demos is one area where a competitive advantage can be gained over online.
I don't think that you have to buy a sound equipped locomotive at a brick and mortar store as opposed to buying on line for several reasons.
First, you have to find a local brick and mortar store which is becoming an ever increasing rarity. Second, if you have a LHS, it has to have the model you want in stock which may or may not occur. Third, if you find a LHS with the sound loco in stock, how can you be sure that the acoustics in the store match the acoustics on and about your layout. Fourth, sound decoder manufacturers, for the most part, provide sound samples on their web sites.
So, I think that it is safe to say, that sound equipped locomotives can be satisfactorily purchased on line without having to find a local brick and mortar store with the desired loco in stock. That said, if you have a local hobby shop, and that LHS carries the loco you want it stock, by all means pay them a visit and listen to the sound decoder in person.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, I don't want to shift this convesation any father into the DC vs DCC debate. There are lots of reasons people don't need or want DCC to fullfill their modeling goals. Not everybody needs or wants the expense and complexities of DCC.
I am trying to stay on topic.
I am just saying, don't dismiss DCC just because you don't want sound.
There are lots of other reasons to consider DCC than just for sound.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL: Rich, I don't want to shift this convesation any father into the DC vs DCC debate. There are lots of reasons people don't need or want DCC to fullfill their modeling goals. Not everybody needs or wants the expense and complexities of DCC. I am trying to stay on topic. I am just saying, don't dismiss DCC just because you don't want sound. There are lots of other reasons to consider DCC than just for sound. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: Rich, I don't want to shift this convesation any father into the DC vs DCC debate. There are lots of reasons people don't need or want DCC to fullfill their modeling goals. Not everybody needs or wants the expense and complexities of DCC.
Agreed, DCC has a specific set of features and to many those features are important.
But to assume everybody needs or wants those features would also be incorrect.
Example - on my layout, I don't need:
Seperate control of lights - I model the 1950's before ditch lights and such and long before complex operating rules about lighting.
Consisting/speed matching - As I have explained before, I have no problem double, tripple, quadruple, etc, heading locos of various brands and types to suit my needs.
Loco performance - my Aristo throttles use pulse width modulation for motor control just like a DCC decoder - my trains run plenty smooth and slow enough.
I operate my layout mainly in two modes, display - fixed routes with one train per route AND CTC operation were a dispatcher assigns blocks and gives signal clearances to operators. The operators don't have to do any more than you do with DCC - they just walk around with their train, and wireless throttle and obey the signals.
So about he only thing DCC would add to my layout would be the ability to make up engine sets in the engine terminal with out having the several seperate kill sections I use now.
Cost kill sections in engine terminal = $20
Cost of my eight Aristo wireless DC throttles and power supplies = $1600
VS
Cost of non sound DCC decoders for my 130 locos = $2600
Cost of base stations, boosters, circuit breakers, reversers, etc for my 20 x 40 layout, 800 feet of track = $1200
Cost of eight wireless DCC throttles = $1600
The cost of my signaling and turnout controls does not factor in since I would have that in either case. And my "block" controls are intergated into signaling and turnout controls, basicly making them free.
So it would cost me $3700 of that one feature I can do without, and I miss all the joys of installing decoders, speed matching my ABBA locos sets which run fine together on DC, and using throttles with little buttons I can't get my fingers on and little displays my old eys can't read.
My Aristo throttles only have five large easy to operate buttons, my headlights come on automaticly before the train moves, and I can operate my layout ina number of different modes with just the push of a few buttons.
But that is just what I want - others have different wants and needs.
80ktsClamp I am quite particular about sound.... I've run recording studios and run live sound in large venues. The little speaker that is squeezed into HO scale engines does not do it...it physically can not and will not produce the appropriate tonality to represent a real motor. While it is representative on certain frequencies, it's not even close.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And so it seems that many of us with a back ground in High Fidelity sound find these onboard sound systems unacceptable in sound quality.
Granted, a large speaker is going to give you way better fidelity and depth of sound than a 1" OD speaker. However, even as a musician, my ears can put up with (overlook) the limitations of smaller-scale sound coming from inside my HO locomotive the same way I overlook the limitations of details on the outside of my HO locomotive.
BOTH sound and visual are "representative" of the prototype. On a model scale, why should I expect more from one than I do the other?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom,
I understand that choice, and in fact I have said before on this topic of sound, IF I was building a one train, MA & PA type, branchline layout, where the operator followed his one train around with no concern or effect from competing noise and activity, I would likely consider sound even in HO and the effect may be reasonably good.
Personally, that's not my layout interest, I want lots of action, big long trains, etc, etc, but not the head splitting noise of eight locos at once.
It's all a choice, we make all sorts of compromises in this hobby, we all chose our poison.
I won't run 2-10-2's or 80' passenger cars around 30" curves, for reasons of appearance - some people think that's fine.
I want the diaphragms on my passenger cars to touch and stay touching - some people can suspend the disbelief of that passenger killing gap - I can't.
A persons acceptance of onboard sound is no different than these other compromises.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Personally, that's not my layout interest, I want lots of action, big long trains, etc, etc, but not the head splitting noise of eight locos at once.
In the OP's initial post, he asked about preferences between sound and non-sound Athearn Genesis locomotives. So, I think that it is fair and accurate to assume that the OP has a DCC-powered layout, and that the notion of DCC can be raised without going off topic.
That said, if you want lots of action and big long trains, but not the head splitting noise of eight locos at once, turn off the sound on seven on them so you can focus on the one that you are most interested in at the moment. After all, not every locomotive on the prototype is blaring its horn at the same time as all of the others, and that is one of the many advantages of DCC, controlling not only individual locomotives but also individual sounds on different locomotives. Lots of action, big long trains, no head splitting sound.
Rich,
The OP later explained he works in a hobby shop and posted the question in regard to what his boss should stock - sound, no sound or both?
I'm not interested in spending that money to listen to one tinny sounding loco either. I would rather have the 130 quiet locos I have rather than 65 with sound - not to mention the other costs of DCC for layout of my size. And yes, my "average" loco investment is about the same as the cost of a sound decoder - so adding sound would double the cost of my 130 loco fleet.
And again, I don't like the ergonomics of any of the DCC throttles on the market - especially Digitrax.
Too many buttons, too hard to use, too hard to see the display. What I do may be very complex to build, but it is actually easier for the individual user to use.
I understand and accept that DCC is the best and right choice for many people, you should understand that it is not the right choice for EVERYBODY.
Perhaps, since the OP hasn't responded again since last Saturday (pg. 4), maybe we should just move onto more fruitful discussions? We've been down this road so many times before...
One of the things that makes this hobby so great is all the different choices we have. There are so many ways to go. Sure it's a little tough for the new guy to sort through, but in the end each of us can end up with a hobby that is deeply satisfying to us. There is no right or wrong way (as long as you're safe of course) just lots of great choices.
I know this makes it tough on the hobby shop owners to know what to stock, but the successful ones figure out what their customers want. Unfortunately, the others fail. I think that's why some of the shows are so good - lots of dealers each covering a small segment of the hobby and together covering most of it.
In my case I went with DCC because at the time Aristocraft's system wasn't quite far enough along to do what I wanted (it is now, but I have already chosen) and NCE had what I considered to be the best wireless system going at that time. The sound was just a bonus for me - but I now buy all my locos with sound if I can. I only have 12 in S scale (5 with sound, 3 to add, and 4 kits to build) and will probably not ever have more than 20 so the cost is manageable. Another bonus for me was simpler wiring - but then I have no signaling as the Ma&Pa was "dark". But I can easily see how others make different choices. Again that's what is so great about this hobby.
Enjoy
Paul
Without. I just cant get past the tinny, hollow, trebley like sound. It just sounds annoying to me.
Here's a probable first:
Depends on the manufacturer. with if their lighting effect (factory beacons) work, without if not. just my preferance
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.