Hi all,Over a year ago MTH's VP of marketing, Andy Edleman, posted on this forum that they would be expanding their support for DCC on their Protosound 3 diesel decoders. I'm a fulltime custom layout builder and a volunteer beta tester for MTH's DCS and Protosound software. Following Andy's announcement I posted here that I would let you all known when I had a copy of MTH's new software in beta test or any other info regarding this upgrade. It has been a long wait, but the expanded support is now shipping in new engines.The first engines delivered with expanded DCC support were the O scale NYC #999 Empire State Express 4-4-0's. Those engines shipped back in January. The expanded DCC support was well known and advertised on these engines. What has not been well advertised is that the revised software with expanded DCC support has also been installed on the most recent deliveries of HO SD70ACe's.The new software supports the following DCC features:CV's 2 and 5 - min and max voltageCV 19 - advanced consist addressCV's 21 and 22 - advanced consist functionsCV's 23 and 24 - advanced consist accel and decel ratesCV 25 - speed table selectionCV 52 - PWM motor configurationCV's 53 and 54 - accel and decel rates of the MTH speed curveCV's 63 and 64 - accel and decel rates of the MTH speed curve in a consistCV 66 - forward trimCV's 67 through 94 - 28 custom speed curve stepsCV 95 - reverse trimCV's 115 through 170 - function mapping for F1-F28All the MTH diesel and electric engines delivered up until recently have shipped with support for only CV's 1,3,4,17,18, and 29. All of these engines can be updated with a free software upgrade. Protosound 3 steam engines use a different version of the decoder that cannot be updated.The updated software that gets loaded into the engines is already complete and ready to load into existing engines. The MTH factory already has the necessary installation tools to install the updated software on the production line. To permit updating existing engines MTH has to complete a public version of their loader software. That loader program is currently in alpha test. I have been told to expect a beta test version of the loader program shortly. I will post again when I have the loader program in beta test.Once the loader and engine files are released to the general public they will be available as free downloads on the MTH website. The loader program will run on any Win 2000 and later PC. The downside for most HO operators is that to transfer the new software to the engine requires an MTH DCS TIU (track interface unit - MSRP $180). For those who don't want to fork out the bucks for their own DCS system just to do the software update I'd suggest asking your local dealer if they can do the update for you. You might also try to make contact with an O-gauge modeler who already owns DCS. Many of them can be contacted through the Classic Toy Trains and O Gauge Railroading forums.Once you have access to a DCS system and have installed the free loader program you will be able to update the software with the engine sitting on a programming track. It is not necessary to remove the decoder or engine shell to load the software. The TIU creates a digital link with the engine by using the track, wheels, and power wires like a USB cable. You don't even have to throw a dip switch on the engine. Once it's set up it's pretty slick.If there are any questions I'll keep tabs on this thread and do my best to answer. However, at this time my info is still fairly limited.
At least they are listening - this should make it easier for NCE users to consist MTH locos, and also allow people to speed match them with other brand locos for consisting.
Now if they made something I want/need...
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Dave, I welcome these upgrade features, but I own some steamers that need them. Why is MTH not including them, or do they plan to at a later time? Will future steam production have them?
Hal
Hi Hal,
The decoder used in the steamers was developed in 2005 and uses a ROM chip to hold the decoders operating system software. The diesel and electric decoders were released in 2009 and use all flash memory for both the operating system software and the sound file. That's what makes it possible to add the expanded DCC support "in the field" to the diesels and electrics.
MTH is working on a new steam decoder that also uses all flash memory. That version of the decoder will also ship with expanded DCC support from the factory. They are also planning to release versions of these decoders as separate sale kits for installation in non-MTH locomotives. As far as I know, swapping out the decoder is the only way exisiting steamers will be able to add the expanded DCC support.
rrinker At least they are listening - this should make it easier for NCE users to consist MTH locos, and also allow people to speed match them with other brand locos for consisting. Now if they made something I want/need... --Randy
We will really know that they are listening if the offerings of DC (DCC ready) versions continue to expand in HO. Contrary to popular myth, not everyone wants, likes, needs, uses, or has DCC and or sound.
And those of us still using DC expect the same level of compatiblity as our DCC friends, not locos that require higher voltages or special power systems, before we plunk down our money - HO is not High Rail, as much as Mike Wolf might have thought he could "remake HO" in his image (some of your customers not withstanding, Dave).
Now if they just made something I want/need - in DC - and preferably without trying to stomp on the existing products from other manufacturers (I know they are not the only ones with that business model, but I don't buy much from that other company that does that either).
Sheldon
They did that already. The 70ACes are available as a DC only version with no decoder.
There still exists the idea of making something that fits my era and railroad, unless Doc Brown was messing around with something larger than a DeLorean and managed to shoot an SD70ACe back to 1956.
rrinker They did that already. The 70ACes are available as a DC only version with no decoder. There still exists the idea of making something that fits my era and railroad, unless Doc Brown was messing around with something larger than a DeLorean and managed to shoot an SD70ACe back to 1956. --Randy
Randy, my point was it is the only one so far - waiting to see if it continues, and like you, waiting for something I actually want.
I can say with reasonable certainty, I will never own an SD70ACe - from any manufacturer.
The software is a step in the right direction for sure. One big thing they left out is the ability to adjust the volume of individual sounds and master volume. As noted earlier upgrading the steamers would be a biggie as well.
As far as vmax is concerned I think they should go a step further and have a setting that keeps the scale mph feature with speed steps but allow the maximum speed to be adjusted.
Springfield PA
The only engine I look for is the 4-12-2 and will not get the MTH...IE flexed front drivers, although the prototype had them, not a flexed porch. Why I am just as critical about the Joe. At this point MTH will have to make a unique hard to get engine that people want and throw their new decoder in and be as max compatible to the DCC crowd as possible.You just simply will have a hard time trying to be proprietary in HO.
The NMRA has stressed compatibility and the industry has responded to those needs, MTH has tried to be their proprietary way and the other industry components are going to have a hard time owning up to a proprietary system, it would increase their costs especially thru rights and trademarks and everything else and that reflects right back to the modeler costs, and in this money crunch time, you can't do that.
I can't understand why they can't make their decoder 100% compatible, its just software. Have their decoder switchable between DCS and DCC.
Maybe if I remember right, DCS is DC orientiented and DCC is AC. Hmmm.
dinwitty I can't understand why they can't make their decoder 100% compatible, its just software. Have their decoder switchable between DCS and DCC. Maybe if I remember right, DCS is DC orientiented and DCC is AC. Hmmm.
Hi dinwitty,
The Protosound 3 decoder already automatically detects the presence of DCC, DCS, or conventional DC and responds accordingly.
DCS is not specific to either AC or DC, it works on both. In O and G both AC and DC are used by modelers. In HO the Protosound 3 decoders will operate on conventional DC, DCC, or DCS on DC current. Protosound 3e+ decoders will operate on conventional 3-rail AC (Marklin), DCC, Marklin Digital, and DCS on AC current. They are kind of a "Swiss Army knife" of a decoder. Although, I don't think they have yet been offered with a tooth pick and tweezers...yet.
Hi Dave,It might be obvious that they improve CV29 as well. However, it is better to ask :) As a beta tester could you check if it is possible to switch direction by adding one to the value for CV29. It is impossible to change a direction now.
They probably didn't add the direction bit because the decoders are always in an MTH loco and they install them. So there isn't a problem with direction because of a backwards mounted decoder. For advanced consist you would tell the loco which direction it is facing through those CV's
Arras88 Hi Dave,It might be obvious that they improve CV29 as well. However, it is better to ask :) As a beta tester could you check if it is possible to switch direction by adding one to the value for CV29. It is impossible to change a direction now.
Hi Arras88,
I'm not curtain if they have added the direction bit to CV 29 or not. I will definitely ask. I won't expect a reply for a could days because of the holiday. I suspect they may well have added the direction bit because of some changes that are coming in the way DCS functions. I'll post the answer here when I find out.
I have downloaded the newly relaeased PS3.0 files from the website but one of the .srec files will not load ,the other two Load OK But you have to load them in the correct order otherwise the loco stops working ,I have spoken to one of the technicians at MTH about the issue he told me to try a few different things but to no avail so I will Have to ring him again on Monday to see if it can be sorted my guess is something has gone wrong with ( mth_hod_fpga_version_B4-hdr .srec) file while being compressed as a zip file
Hi DX8007,
I'm curious what exactly you downloaded. Can you give a link to the download? Once I know what you have I can try to help.
Dave
Dave:
I'm certainly not going to bash MTH, I own their Daylight passenger set and it's just beautiful--well detailed and very smooth rolling. It's simply the best passenger car set that I own.
However, as a strictly DC operator, I sure wouldn't object if MTH decided to at least throw us a bone with some other locomotive offerings--I'd pick up their AC-6 Cab Forward in a New York Minute if it were offered strictly DC--sound or not--but as is, the starting voltage for even decent operation in DC seems to be so far in the last quarter quadrant of the standard power pack that even at 'full bore', the locomotive barely creeps down the track. At least that's what I found at my LHS when the owner demonstrated it for me.
As I said, if MTH could also offer DC only for a lot of us, he just might see more 'turnover' in his locos. That AC-6 is an extremely handsome loco, but it would be useless on my layout.
Just my thoughts.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
hi Dave what i downloaded was the protosound 3 update this link is for the heritage sp ho scale but it appears to be the same .srec Files as the rest
http://www.mthtrains.com/sites/default/files/download/soundfiles/h10x_sd70ace62bns110304af4x.zip
I will Have to make another call tommorrow to MTH one file of the tree refuses to open
cheers Tony (dx8007)
Hi Tony,
I sent an e-mail to Dave KrebiehlMTH's, VP of R&D, asking for clarification, but I think I know what's going on. I suspect MTH's webmaster has jumped the gun and posted software (the .srec files) that the current DCS Loader program can't handle.
You'll notice when you unzip the files you get one text file, one ".mth" file, and three ".srec" files. The ".mth" file contains the locomotive's sounds and speed table. I believe the ".srec" files include the necessary code changes to support the expanded DCC support. However, the current version of the DCS Loader software (V2.20) cannot edit the memory range necessary to install the software. That's why you're having problems. I would suggest you stop trying to load the code until I get confirmation of this from Dave K. If the new DCS Loader software isn't ready for release I'll see if I can take care of you with a beta copy.
Just for clarification, please confirm that you own a DCS system and that you are trying to perform the software updates with V2.20 of the DCS Loader program. It might also be useful to know what type of computer, operating system, and serial port you are using.
Thee just i no way to make working realistic sound and have it work on DC exactly like any other DC loco witht he motor connected to the track pickups with no sound chips and so forth. Outside of non-smooth DC as the power source anyway. Real locos make sounds sitting still, so the sound loco on DC needs some amount of voltage to get noises before the motor turns. Since this is typically a bit over 5 volts, and because most DC controls concentrate the fine part of the control range in the lower part (MRC 'taper-wound rheostat', anyone?), you end up with a very short tange from stop to ludicrous speed. DC and sound just don;t mix well, and any option to correct that may cause incompatibilities with older plain DC non-sound locos. Perhaps an on-board battery for JUST the sound system, so the loco can make sounds at the slightest crack of the throttle. Otherwise, if sound is important, consider DCC. If sound doesn't matter, then DC works just fine.
The best option would be a straight DC version like they've done for some other models, no fancy electronics between the track power pickups and the motor. Compatibility with other makes of DC locos should be good.
twhite Dave: I'm certainly not going to bash MTH, I own their Daylight passenger set and it's just beautiful--well detailed and very smooth rolling. It's simply the best passenger car set that I own. However, as a strictly DC operator, I sure wouldn't object if MTH decided to at least throw us a bone with some other locomotive offerings--I'd pick up their AC-6 Cab Forward in a New York Minute if it were offered strictly DC--sound or not--but as is, the starting voltage for even decent operation in DC seems to be so far in the last quarter quadrant of the standard power pack that even at 'full bore', the locomotive barely creeps down the track. At least that's what I found at my LHS when the owner demonstrated it for me. As I said, if MTH could also offer DC only for a lot of us, he just might see more 'turnover' in his locos. That AC-6 is an extremely handsome loco, but it would be useless on my layout. Just my thoughts. Tom
Hi Tom,
I know there are a lot of folks like yourself who are sticking with DC for one reason or another. I can certainly sympathize with your situation. When a really good model of a prototype you want comes out it sucks when it's power train is not configured the way you want it.
The best long term advice I can offer is keep asking for DC versions. When I talk to the guys at MTH they're pretty upfront about their intentions. They want to make stuff that people are willing buy, whatever it is. If enough people ask for something often enough they'll make it. Obviously enough people have been asking for DC versions that they're giving it a try. Whether they do more DC versions in the future will depend on sales.
I don't have any inside knowledge of MTH's sales but we can get some hint of how the sales of DC models are going off their website. MTH has a product locator feature for finding dealers who have a particular item in stock. If MTH still has them in-stock in Maryland that shows up on the product locator. If you look through the DC and Protosound 3 versions of the models that have been offered both ways over a period of time we can see some mixed results. The PS3 versions of the SD70's have obviously sold well. They've had multiple production runs of the PS3 versions and most of the item numbers are no longer in-stock. The sales of the DC/DCC ready versions of the SD70's don't appear to have been as strong. Far more of the DC versions are still in stock and have been in stock for months. On the other hand, the DC versions of the UP Turbines seem to be selling out faster than the PS3 versions. We don't know how many of each version have actually been manufactured, so we shouldn't read too much into this data. But it is interesting to see that the DC versions are having at least some level of success in the market.
Unfortunately, even with a lot of campaigning, you're probably in for a long wait for a second production run of the AC-6's. One option I might suggest is taking a look at the DCS Remote Commander. The DCSRC is a stripped down wireless remote control system that MTH started shipping with their starter sets last Christmas. It allows you access to a limited number of the command mode sound features on a conventional DC layout, much like a QSI Quantum Engineer or MRC Black Box. However, there is one BIG difference. The DCSRC allows you to control Protosound 3 engines in scale miles per hour, just like full command mode. You can connect the DCSRC to the output of any DC power supply that runs your layout (or a selected block) and run any PS3 engine. Even if your DC power supply can only maintain 12 volts at full throttle that's enough for the DCSRC to run the engine at prototypical speeds. I realize that buying a DCSRC would effectively add another $40 to an already expensive locomotive, but if the AC-6 is something you'd really like to have it might be worth a look next time you're at your LHS.
Hi Dave Just confirming that I have A DCS revL system With V4.20 Intsalled Also Computer Is XP Using the usb Connection with v2.20 loader ,Seems strange the Other two srec Files Load Ok But the Middle One Does not ,also the sound file has a problem that it registers as an Ho sound file And will not load into The ps3.0 system in the loco so I gather there is a few issues to be worked through as yet but it will be worth the wait , i have printed off the new manual from the site and the increase in Dcc Capability is a major step foward
Thanks Again
Tony
I confirmed with MTH R&D that you will need the new loader software. Apparently it was posted on the website briefly, but a bug was found and it was pulled down. I'll be testing the bug fix later today. If it works I'll set you up with the correct loader software.
Hi Dave thanks for the update and help with this is much appreciated
Cheers Tony
Is there a reason why MTH won't expand the dcc compatability on their loco's? It has been asked for numerous times for the ability to adjust the individual sound volumes, as well as consisting and speed matching options.
Because then there would be no reason to buy a DCS system!
And that's not really cynical, it's probably pretty close to the truth.
Hi Hamltnblue,
MTH is expanding the DCC support in Protosound 3 locomotives.
Advanced consisting and custom speed mapping are included in this update along with function mapping.
If you'd like to see what all has been added and how to access it (once your locomotive has been updated) you can download the revised SD70 owners manual HERE.
Individual sound volumes were still left out of this update. I can't say why. As far as I know there's no technical reason it couldn't be included in a future update. However, if you have the necessary DCS hardware to update the locomotive firmware you also have the ability to adjust the individual sound volumes in DCS. Sound volume changes made in DCS are retained in DCC mode.
Tony,
I have the software you need and already updated one of my locomotives to make sure everything is working. Send me an e-mail (davehikel@hotmail.com) and I'll send you what you need.
Any news in this topic? Is this update available? Is it possible to send models to MTH to load a new software?
Yep. I had 2 of my Aces updated with the new software. Now advanced consisting works!
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
I just purchased one of the MTH FA-1's. I operated with Digitrax and for the most part the locomotive runs fine. However, the loco does have its quirks. after about 2-3 hours of operation, the locomotive forgets its address. The first time this happened, I was afraid there was a serious problem; however, a call to their tech support gave me a solution (select loco 55, pom, set cv 55 to 55 and the address resets to 3).
Now I expect this occasional reset. However, I was running yesterday and noticed that the sound would go through the engine shut down sequence. Lights, horn, speed control were all normal, and an F3 brought the engine sound back.
My question is are these little glitches a known issue when running the Protosound 3 on DCC? If so, will changing to DCS eliminate the problems?