This is probably a good time to call this one baked. If anyone comes up with more information, such as CZ with a response from MTH that either updates what he was told, or confirms it, then he will launch a new thread. Same for others who have new information.
-Crandell
[locked]
Exactly Paul, when I see such comments, my faith in the writer's objectivity rapidly goes down to zero.
But I will nevertheless by one MTH KCS SD70ACe if I can find one at the Milwaukee NMRA convention.
Jack W.
dave hikel Hi CZ, Interesting stuff about the marker lights. You said you're starting to think the photo above is form the 1937 version of the train. Would that not have been painted with "Southern Pacific Lines" rather than "Southern Pacific?" I don't see "Lines" in the photo you posted.
Hi CZ,
Interesting stuff about the marker lights. You said you're starting to think the photo above is form the 1937 version of the train. Would that not have been painted with "Southern Pacific Lines" rather than "Southern Pacific?" I don't see "Lines" in the photo you posted.
Dave
You are right, it does have the large lettering. I don't have an explanation of the difference but some of the observations are slightly different. Maybe some Daylight train expert that really has researched this can tell us more about this. This car was post war but still had the skirts on it. They were not removed until the early 1950's on most of the cars.
I emailed MTH and asked if I could use the DCS 2.0 system that I have for the new HO when the PRR K4 came on the market. I received a nice email back to me saying the system would not work with the HO system since the TIU has a common ground type of track system. The HO uses the DCC type of voltage and it is not compatible with the 2.0 TIU. This was from MTH and I would think they told me correctly. I am under the impression the hand system remote could be updated, but the complete system could not be used for the HO unless a different TIU was used.
Since they may have provided a way to upgrade the system now, I will email them again and ask more about this situation. The #1 scale has a common rail type of design and my two engines will not communicate with the remote unless the engine is set on the track a certain direction or the switch is reversed for that function. I never fully understood that limitation but will look into the upgrade now that it has been explained.
Thanks for the update
CZ
Mr. Simpson,I asked if you worked for MTH. You have now stated that you do not. I have no reason to doubt your word now that you have replied to the question. I will not apologize for merely asking, but I will apologize for any implication that you work for MTH.
Please try to see this from a neutral observation. MTH has employed at least one confirmed shill in the past on the Atlas Forum in the past year. They have forever broken my trust between manufacturer and consumer by this action. There have been others here that were suspected of shilling, but once confronted, they disappeared.
Please look at your own 109 posts. Using the search by your name and MTH, it turns up 53 postings. That's an abnormally high percentage about just one manufacturer.
Reading some of these posts, they include statements such as, "The fact is the locomotives operate and sound absolutely awsome...", "...so those who do not want sound but desire DCC capability or prefer to add their own sound - can now enjoy this fabulous model." "MTH is in HO for the long haul and is bringing the HO modeler some pretty awsome locomotives...", "There's a lot of Wolf-bashers out there for what ever reason -it dosen't fly with me.... I'm a believer." "Those Alco PA's and FA's are what have got me licking my chops - the 16 bit full digital Protosound 3.0 is going to be awsome on these!", "My latest aquisition is the Nickel Plate Burke 765 excursion(2009) version. All I can say is - well... Wow."And whole paragraphs:
"I don't know how they do it but MTH's Canon drive motor, is absolutely the smoothest and most speed-sensitive powertrain out there. I used to own some pretty smooth brass locos but nothing like these -the start voltage sensitivity is unbelievably ultra-smooth from idle and the sounds are stunning re-mastered digital recordings."
"I have quite a few of the MTH HO locomotives and I have never been disappointed with a single one I've purchased. I've read threads with critics talking about the early releases like the K4s Pennsy not having the correct spacing for the tender. Okay, I'll admit its a little long but I love that engine - and when I run it at an Open House event, it drops more jaws than anything running."
These quotes were all pulled from the 1st page of this thread: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/175354/1924576.aspx#1924576
For the record, you described MTH's products as "awesome" three times, as well as "fabulous", "stunning", and simply, "wow". That's exactly the kind of statements that the confirmed and suspected MTH shills were making.
I hope you can eventually forgive my cynicism.
Respectfully,Paul A. Cutler III
CAZEPHYR I purchased the complete DCS system several years ago for my large scale locomotives but it does not work with the new HO releases. I did email them about that and they confirmed the system was not compatible.
I purchased the complete DCS system several years ago for my large scale locomotives but it does not work with the new HO releases. I did email them about that and they confirmed the system was not compatible.
As I recall you've posted this same comment several times and I continue to be perplexed. It's simply not correct. I own several TIU's, including a revision "G" original TIU from 2002, and they all will run MTH HO PS3 engines in DCS mode. The only requirements that might be different than what you might be using to run your #1 gauge is that they must have DC current (#1 gauge will run DCS on either AC or DC) and you must upgrade the software to 3.11 or later to access all the new features. Every TIU ever made can be upgraded to the latest software (currently 4.10) with a free download from the MTH website. You also need a serial cable and a stereo mini audio cable to perform the upgrade which you might have to purchase. If you need help with doing this send me an e-mail at davehikel@hotmail.com.
Heritagefleet1 I wished they would have kept the Presision Craft Line - those were sweet models. All I currently have is the WP Zephyr set, the Rio Grande set, a ABB set of PCM WP F-3s to pull that train and an ABA set of the Union Pacific E9 Executives, which I'm in the slow process of 'modernizing'
I wished they would have kept the Presision Craft Line - those were sweet models.
All I currently have is the WP Zephyr set, the Rio Grande set, a ABB set of PCM WP F-3s to pull that train and an ABA set of the Union Pacific E9 Executives, which I'm in the slow process of 'modernizing'
Rick
This is the picture I was talking about. I am beginning to believe it might be the 1937 train because it does have the markers in a different position and I have now located some above the third window. Go figure that one.
The tooling MTH received from the Korean builder included the F series and PA's so MTH should offer those for many railroads in the future.
Have a great day and enjoy the hobby. It is a good thing to run trains and enjoy the times past.
johngriffey18ca1Ok I apparently jumped on a guy that was addressing Rick because on my smartphone I thought he was addressing me. My apologies, but what I don't apologize for is these people that have this conspiracy...
John...
I just read your response.
Sorry you got caught in the crossfire - this kind if thing just shouldn't be happening on a Model Railroad topic forum. I simply could not ignore the poster's attack when he chose to make it personal...it was way off base.
Anyway, I appreciate your words - not because you were 'defending' MTH(Ohhh! gawd!...I said it again)...but just because you spoke the truth.
I don't know much about what you do ...if you have a link to your page, I'd like to check it out.
Rick/HeritageFleet1
Peace-out.
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Thanks for watching man! Sorry you had to see a bad part of me there, but I get frustrated with people who think irrationally. Be sure to keep watching as I'll be doing a give away for my 100th episode on youtube. I'm giving away a UP flag AC4400 with DCC and sound and some intermodal cars. What's your youtube user ID? Anyway, I'll announce the giveaway live July 27th and the drawing will be mid August for the 100th episode. Be sure to sign up for it once I make the announcement and thanks for the support.
Ok I apparently jumped on a guy that was addressing Rick because on my smartphone I thought he was addressing me. My apologies, but what I don't apologize for is these people that have this conspiracy theory that there are MTH spies on these forums. It's a bit childish. I can see where it's possible and maybe has happened in the past but come on. If you don't like MTH...fine. No one has a gun to your head to buy their products. But as for me, I like em and I buy them. I've got 9 SD70ACe's 2 steam engines(daylight and challenger), the HO crossing gates and all 17 SP cars (coming). So I've spent about $4,500 on MTH stuff in the last 9 months. That's how much I like them. But you don't have to spend a penny if you don't wish. That's the beauty of free will.
CAZEPHYR I hope they offer the PRR S2 since that one should be on their list. CZ
I hope they offer the PRR S2 since that one should be on their list.
CAZEPHYR I hope they offer the PRR S2 since that one should be on their list.
CZ...I appreciate your explaination. I took the time to measure the drivers on my GS-4 just to confirm my research. They measure very close to 79.25" across centers w/calipers... on a scale rule, I measured them at about 6'-7"...at any rate they are well within tolarances for HO scale.
I'm sorry ol' friend, but I can't get my head around your thinking on the markers...I've located at least 6-7 photos(including the one I posted) and it is clear that the location is correct on the model - again, we may just agree to disagree on this but as I said earlier, it is possible that there were cars that had markers relocated for any number of reasons.
Kato placed them in the exact same position on the N scale boat tail.
As for my abrasiveness earlier...I owe you a apology - I shouldn't have allowed my emotions to come across the way they did - when I make a mistake, I'm big enough to admit it -sorry. I am really tired of the same few posters that just can't say anything positive about Mike Wolf, when this guy has done so much right for the hobby - and now in HO.
I don't like the DCS thing anymore than anyone else and in time, I think this will evolve more to DCC. Frankly, I bought the darned DCS Wireless solely for the purpose of being able to upload and download sound files from one locomotive to another utilizing their website... AND, to access individual sound file volumes, so I could adjust them to my preferences.
LOL...I've re-programmed enough locomitves and sound files to pay for the thing...lol. I don't like it but if I want to acheive the ends, then the gadget justifies the means.(I think I said that right)
I can handle everything else with the Digitrax 402.
I didn't find anything on the WP versions- yet... so I will assume that you are correct in stating the GS-6 used the same 73.5" drivers as the GS-1/2.
And I would agree with your assessment that most modelers are not going to know or care. It could have been a cost factor to produce the different versions.
As far as BLI goes, as bad as I want one of the Q2's, I'm not happy with their methods of releasing a product at even a small discount , and in 3-4 weeks you see them getting dumped at FDT...2 fer 199.00
I do not understand that guy's business model and don't much see how he stays in business.
You see...I do have a liking for other than MTH stuff I just want somebody to bring out the Baldwin Sharks - Mike is talking about it... and NO - I don't work for MTH... they couldn't afford me.
Take care,
Rick/ HeritageFleet1
Paul3 Your very active defense of them, your constant cheerleading of their products, and your increasingly prickly replies (Braille? Really?) lacks any sort of balance. It makes me wonder if Mike is telling his employees to pump up his company online...again. Paul A. Cutler III
Your very active defense of them, your constant cheerleading of their products, and your increasingly prickly replies (Braille? Really?) lacks any sort of balance. It makes me wonder if Mike is telling his employees to pump up his company online...again.
Paul A. Cutler III
Mr Cutler...
First I want to say that I've been at a disadvantage for the last few hours, as I have a intermitent commute from my office and have just now had a chance to read your response to my comments.
I'm now going to ask as a personal courtesy, that the moderators of this Forum be open-minded and allow me the latitude to speak on my own behalf, so that I may directly address the arrogant aqusations which have been leveled at my response on a previous thread. Frankly, I am surprised that the moderators have allowed this to carry to this extent - it does not speak highly of this forum, or its sponsers.
For the sake of the persons who have participated in this topic and out of respect for the people who allow this forum to exist, I am going to try to keep my personal feelings out of this.
On the record, I find that the aggressive tone of your inquisition to be both myopic and adolesent.
By what right do you have the odacity to question who I work for? And furthermore, what makes you think who I work for matters in this issue??
Let me educate you on a few things, Mr Cutler... because it is quite obvious you need a refresher course... and that goes for anyone who shares Mr Cutler's rude and anything but 'balanced' comments.
I'm going to answer your question - but before I do you need to understand that you do NOT own this forum - it is open to all who wish to participate in it and for the benefit of all who are interested in learning from those who post responses. It is also a place where you and I can share thought and opinions that are useful - not destructive - in promoting any manufacturer, their products, and assisting the individuals that wish to learn about those products,or learn from a person that has experience in an area that may be of help to another modeler - weather it relates to operation, scenery, lighting, kitbashing, or what ever the Genaral Topic might be.
Congratulations. I knew it would only be a matter of time before I would be confronted by a basher of MTH. Since you've been - and by your own addmission - 'monitoring' my responses - noted by the exact number of posts(105), I'll address them for you, one by one.
First, you refer to me as a 'shill' - I beleive that was the term you used. Since you and I have never met, and I am certain you are aware of this, I don't think you know me well enough at all, to start calling me (or anyone else) names on this forum - that behavior can get you booted off fast, according to the rules of this forum. And I haven't abandoned the thought of filing a formal complaint against you with the moderators of this forum - but we'll get to that later...back to your inquisition.
Then, in almost the same sentence, you 'accuse' me of being in the employ of MTH. As though you have any right to judge anyone for what preferences they may like or be a fan of. You may like a particular model, structure, Manufacturer, etc...and you make your opinions known - yet I do not question if you are an employee of that company.
Next...let's be clear: Do I Like MTH products? For the most part Yes. As a matter of fact, I believe MTH is producing some of the best MR products in the industry, for the money - That is my opinion. Are there things I don't care for that they do? Some things, Yes. What urks you is I will not paint MTH in a negative light - you and those who have a negative impression of Mr Wolf, apparently do that enough for all of us.
Since you have taken it upon yourself to burden your mind with what my interests and motives are, then you may want to know this too:
I also like Overland Models ... and Atlas, with whom I have a small fortune tied up in their products.
Brian Marsh is a great guy and he's had his struggles - I'm certain I've never worked for him... no, I'm positive.
KatoUSA, is a favorite - they've just decided that due to economic times, they will focus on N scale which is their main product line. I've never worked for them either -you can call and ask Leon, really.
Moving on to the next issue:
You have accused my posts of being of the "one-sided pro-MTH variety..." SO WHAT?
Some of you guys can't say two syllibles without drooling all over your Bachmann locomotives - you talk about them and you bragg about how little you paid for them - GREAT! That's marvalous...nothing wrong with that. But boy, you mention preferring a MTH model, and you're immediately pegged as some criminal undermining this website and forum to do 'evil'.
If you like Bachmann or P2K ( I own P2K too) or Atlas or KATO, there's nothing wrong with giving them a 'at a boy'. I happen to like MTH products as much as I do my brass, and others... and If a poster askes a question about what they should buy, by God I'm going to offer my opinion and back it up with reasons why. Which I have done. Weather you like it or not, Mr Cutler III.
Now, as to your next statement, I don't get this at all, other than it sounds about as mind-numbing as the rest of your accusations.
You plainly accuse me of -in your own words of course "Your very active defense of them, your constant cheerleading of their products, and your increasingly prickly replies...etc." " lacks any sort of balance".
Oh... I get it now... so if you're not politically correct, you can't post on this forum... you MUST excercise 'balance'. Let me be real clear here: This may come as a real shock to you Paul, but little ol' Mike Wolf hardly needs me to defend him or his products - he apparently has a whole legal team that does that for him -and quite well I may add.
Its interesting that I don't hear anyone bashing or ridiculing Bob Grubba or BLI, after his involvement with their builder, that led to the theft of tooling and intellectual properties belonging to another manufacturer, as I understand it. That's class for you. Where is your voice on that, Paul??
Furthermore, If I speak up objectively, it doesn't mean I'm defending anything...it means I'm offering a counterpoint to a comment by another poster - one thing that we can do here is agree to disagree. You don't have to agree with me and You don't have to like or buy MTH products...that's your perogative. The difference is individuals like youself who like to be heard, only are interested seizing every opportunity in bashing Mike Wolf and the MTH products like those mentioned here.
If I were praising Bachmann or Athearn products(which I have done) nothing would be made of it -nothing... I defy you to dispute that point.
As far as Mike 'pumping up' his company on line- again... I don't really know how to respond to that- it is such a juvenile statement it dosen't require - not to mention- deserve - a response.
NOW... to answer your question: " Rick"..."Do you work for MTH...?"
The answer: No I do not. Understand this...who I work for is none of your business, Paul....period. Don't ever ask me that question again...here or anywhere else. You can inturpret that any way you like.
In future, I suggest that you refrain from this behavior on this or any other forum - I'm not interested in your personal opinions of me and I try hard to keep my personal views of other people private- unfortunately, I was compelled to address your prejudiced attack against me personally and my intelect.
To all readers and posters who have had to be exposed to the very thing that gives this hobby a bad name, you have my sincerest apology and I hope you will not be discouraged by a those few who want to 'bully' others into their interpretation of 'how things' are.
John R Simpson
Ft Worth Business Unit/ CFO Ethanol & Energy Generation Resources
I have several brass GS4 with scale 80" drivers and the MTH GS4 does not measure more than 77" scale and they use the same drivers for the GS6. Both the MTH GS4 and the MTH GS6 driver size are incorrect but most do not know this and it is not a big deal since many manufactures reduce the size for flanges and other reasons. Sorry if I have pointed out a flaw. I know MTH has the correct numbers on the size of the 80" drivers and they probably knew the GS6 only had 73" drivers. It would seem they decided to use the same drive line for both and that probably saved a lot of money. Most buyers would not realize this do it is not a big deal.
I have several MTH models in both HO and #1 scale since I purchase all kinds for observations and testing just to see what is out there. I like their #1 scale Daylight which is very nice, but it has some issues also. I have it and the Challenger in #1 so I am not bashing MTH in any way. They have repaired one of the engines for me at no cost and were very nice when I called them. I also have several of their HO models for the same reason, but did not get the GS4 since it has several issues I wanted to avoid. I do not have unlimited funds but purchase most of the items that I want over the past forty five years.
The new Daylight cars look rather nice and they should sell a lot of them. After watching the video, I think they have done a good job overall of getting these to market and that is a good thing.
As for the markers, any of the good Daylight books show the detail clearly and I have several of those books. I use them for reference as detail is important to me. The picture that you referenced is almost from the rear and not at an angle and it does look different than the pictures I have in the books. The Daylight book and pictures I have are at a 3/4 view and it looks different from the one that you posted. I can see why you took that point. It makes me wonder if they were moved on the later post war train. I don't have an explanation but will try and scan it so you can see the difference.
I will try to scan a picture from the book so you can see it and post it tomorrow.
My thought is any new company that makes quality HO models is good for our hobby and they certainly have money to make new models. That is the reason I purchased some of their models to test them for myself. I was not happy with some of the details when compared to pictures and other models but they do run well and offer various choices that were not availble up to now. I hope they offer the PRR S2 since that one should be on their list.
johngriffey18ca1 Alright, I've had about enough I can't bite my tounge on this one so here it goes..... NO I do not work for MTH, I think MTH messes things up all the time, but I love all thier products. Like the challenger (3985) why would they have excursion sounds and a coal tender? I am tired of conspiracy whackos like you accusing people of things they aren't. If you're so concerned about who and what I am then go to my youtube page www.youtube.com/JLWII2000. If you don't like MTH that's fine but it doesn't mean that everyone that does works for them. Idiot. I seriously doubt Mike has had his employees doing that. Their product sells well enough on its own. MTH is not perfect but I prefer it over the crap athearn has been releasing lately. I purchased a genesis SD60 from them that practically fell apart out of the box. I'm tired of garbage and the likes of you folks and your conspiracies. Trust me there are way few actual conspiracies out there than you think. Trust me I know, I work for the U.S. Government.
Alright, I've had about enough I can't bite my tounge on this one so here it goes.....
NO I do not work for MTH, I think MTH messes things up all the time, but I love all thier products. Like the challenger (3985) why would they have excursion sounds and a coal tender? I am tired of conspiracy whackos like you accusing people of things they aren't. If you're so concerned about who and what I am then go to my youtube page www.youtube.com/JLWII2000. If you don't like MTH that's fine but it doesn't mean that everyone that does works for them. Idiot. I seriously doubt Mike has had his employees doing that. Their product sells well enough on its own. MTH is not perfect but I prefer it over the crap athearn has been releasing lately. I purchased a genesis SD60 from them that practically fell apart out of the box. I'm tired of garbage and the likes of you folks and your conspiracies. Trust me there are way few actual conspiracies out there than you think. Trust me I know, I work for the U.S. Government.
You're JLWII2000? Wow, I've watched your videos for months now, and they have done a great service for the model railroading community. I love your product updates, so much infact, that I was just about to post your video the MTH crossing gates system on here, but I was afraid the thread would get deleted or that my thread could end up in a flame war, so I didn't.
Anyway, thanks for your youtube vidoes, they are always great.
johngriffey18ca1 Alright, I've had about enough I can't bite my tounge on this one so here it goes..... NO I do not work for MTH, I think MTH messes things up all the time, but I love all thier products. Like the challenger (3985) why would they have excursion sounds and a coal tender? I am tired of conspiracy whackos like you accusing people of things they aren't.
NO I do not work for MTH, I think MTH messes things up all the time, but I love all thier products. Like the challenger (3985) why would they have excursion sounds and a coal tender? I am tired of conspiracy whackos like you accusing people of things they aren't.
I guess its verbal kung fu fighting time-----thread lock here we come----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I have to interject here and ask that we not get personal in our discussions. Either the facts speak for themselves, or they are sufficiently muddled that they bear some courteous discussion, or even logical and restrained/civilized debate and argument is encouraged. Just not chippy comments about someone's purported or inferred visual acuity.
Please and thank-you.
Rick,Do you work for MTH?
MTH has been known to employ online shills in the past. Atlas outed one on their forum not that long ago, and there have been suspected MTH shills here on MR in the past.
I kind of find it odd that fully half your 105 posts talk about MTH, and those are of the one-sided pro-MTH variety. Even the most ardent fan of Atlas, Kato, Athearn, et al, will admit that they do make some mistakes. In your eyes, does MTH ever make a mistake?
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twhite Impressive, but for cars with working full-length diaphragms, that's sure a lot of 'space' between the cars. Of course, that can be cured with shorter-shank couplers for those of us with wider radius curves. Nice looking cars, though. Tom
Impressive, but for cars with working full-length diaphragms, that's sure a lot of 'space' between the cars. Of course, that can be cured with shorter-shank couplers for those of us with wider radius curves.
Nice looking cars, though.
Tom
Tom... all ...Okay for those of you who are not familiar with MTH or who just like to criticize- the cars come shipped with the couplers installed for 22" radius operation. In the owners manual that comes with the cars, it states that the cars can be set up for prototype spacing(diaphrams mated) with the simple adjustment of the coupler placement, which MTH allows for with multiple mounting holes. This, of course, requires a minimum operating radius of 46", which most layouts will not have.
And BTW, CZ...Your comments about the drivers being the wrong diameter is a misfire... MTH states the GS-4 did have 80" drivers, and so they did do their homework - I suggest you go buy one - 'for observation', of course - and try actually measuring them correctly on the model - I have and they are darned close - well within modeling tolorances. Your comment about the marker lamps is a misfire too...take a look at the photo in this link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30399736@N03/3643868135/ As you can clearly see(unless you need a braile version), the markers are located just above the 3rd window from the center of the rear drum head - as is the model.
Now, just to be fair, I suppose its possible that there could have been different variations on the location of marker lamps - but I couldn't find any photos of prototype cars to support that theory. Another interesting thought is that Kato must have gotten that detail wrong too ... because their N scale observation cars are equipped with the markers in the same position as the photo shows...Hmmmm.
I would be interested in knowing just what MTH products you have claimed to have purchased for - how did you put it - "for observation" - yes... that's it. You certainly must have a unlimited income to be able to just go out and by model railroad products for the purpose of "observation". Sorry old man... but I'm going to throw the BS flag on that call.
No offense...but your MTH basher shirt is showing.
HeritageFleet1
CAZEPHYR rjake4454 Video of the MTH daylight cars in action: http://www.mthtrains.com/news/450 Ok, I'll admit, I'm very impressed. Are you impressed wilth Taylor or the passenger cars?? Sorry, I could not resist. The train is nice but after looking at the video, I noticed the cars are several feet apart. CZ
rjake4454 Video of the MTH daylight cars in action: http://www.mthtrains.com/news/450 Ok, I'll admit, I'm very impressed.
Video of the MTH daylight cars in action:
http://www.mthtrains.com/news/450
Ok, I'll admit, I'm very impressed.
Are you impressed wilth Taylor or the passenger cars?? Sorry, I could not resist. The train is nice but after looking at the video, I noticed the cars are several feet apart.
Mike blurting out ideas to his marketing team: "Think...sexy."
I really like the lit drumhead, marker lights and flashing warning light on the observation car. I think the colors of the cars are very nice as well, they really catch your eye.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I watched the video and they do look nice with the constant lighting.
After looking at the still pictures available of both the BLI and MTH observations, they both have the rear marker lights on the side mounted over the third window from the rear. The prototype Daylight observation had the side markers mounted over the second window from the rear. The models seem to have mounted the markers on the flat side instead of the rounded rear end of the car.
That probably is an easy way to get the markers aligned to the rear instead of mounting them on the curved surface. Most details like the markers are not considered important by the manufactures since other observation cars with curved sides actually did mount them above the third window.
Everytime the details of a model are compared to the prototype, these types of errors are discovered.
dave hikelLastly, MTH and BLI are NOT issuing GS-4 models at the same time. MTH shipped their GS-4's and GS-6's more than a year ago. BLI has only recently posted photos of undecorated pre-production engines (very nice looking, BTW). It does appear that both companies will deliver the SP passenger cars in short order, but not the same cars at the same time in the same order. I received the first chair car from MTH this last week. BLI has not yet shipped any cars but has said they expect to ship the observation car first. There are also quite a few differences in the models visible in the sample photos posted of the two companies pre-production samples.
I have the Zephyr train and it has some minor problems, but for the price, it was a bargain.
Both the MTH and BLI passenger cars should make most of us happy.
TwinZephyrDave, Your thorough explanation rings true with my understanding of the MTH - BLI situation. Please, where might one find more information on this statement: "On June, 14th Kader sent letters to 60 smaller train manufacturers in N, HO, S, and O scales notifying them that they will no longer accept new orders."
Hi TwinZephyr,
News of the Sanda Khan letter has been slowly working around the various boards. I first heard about it on the S-Scale Yahoo Group. The following was posted by Ed Loizeaux:
"Gents...The following just arrived in my inbox. Ed L. 1) BAD NEWS FOR "S" --- On June 14th, S-Helper Service, American Models, and Des Plaines Hobbies were all notified by Kader Industries in China (their manufacturer) that Kader will not continue to produce their product line. Only items for which contracts and purchase orders have already been signed will be honored. Apparently, Kader will only continue to deal with the large manufacturers such as Lionel and Atlas. Although only a very minor effect upon us, as compared to how this may affect SHS, AM, and DPH, this means that our planned re-release of the Revere Sugar hopper and the Narragansett Ale reefer are cancelled. Kader Industries purchased Sanda Kan less than two years ago.
This was an excerpt from an e-newsletter I did not receive. However, Ed L. is someone I have meet in person and trust has posted this accurately. He is generally well respected in NMRA circles and is a member of DCC committee.
The existence of the letter has also been confirmed by the Editor of O Gauge Railroading Magazine on their web forum.
The number 60 came from a post on the TCA's yahoo group.
So far I have not found a comprehensive list of who the "60" includes, just individual companies that have separately confirmed receiving the letter. BLI is not among those who have confirmed receiving the letter, but they are Sanda Khan customers. I suspect many of the smaller outfits will be hesitant to discuss the letter until they find alternate manufacturers. It will probably be a while before we much more about who is or is not involved.
Hi Guys,
I'm pretty new to HO, but have modeled in S Gauge (I know, I know) for years.
The existance of the Kader letter has been verified by Doug peck of Portline Hobbies, Don Thompson of S-Helper Service, And Jeff of Hoquat Hobbies. Kader has been THE manufacturer for American Models, S-Helper Service, and Des Plaines Hobbies, to name just a few of the S Gaugers. Kader's explaination apparently is that they will honor all existing contracts and purchase orders, after which they will manufacture trains for the BIG companies such as Lionel and Atlas. This does not bode well for the smaller outfits. There has been some speculation that this may lead to Kader's attempting to buy out many of the companies whose purchases have made Kader the biggies that they are today.
Does anyone know who does the manufacturing for Intermountain and Red Caboose? They are my current favorites--I love the SP sugar beet gondolas from Red Caboose and the PFE reefers from IRC.
Also, I just received an e-mail from BLI stating that the Daylight observation cars are in the warehouses, and asking if I prefer to have the new cars shipped as they are released (about one every two months or so,) or If I want them to hold all cars for one shipment--so they are on the way even as we discuss them.
dave hikelJust to name two differences, the MTH cars have much finer stirrups and grab irons while the BLI's diaphragms have the scissors gate extended across the vestibule. Some people have suggested that the BLI photos are of N-scale cars. I do not believe this to be the case. It is quite clear that the track in the photos is Kato HO Unitrack.
Dave...
Thanks for the post...I appreciate the vast wealth of factual information you posted here - I had read parts of this before in print, thru a hobby shop that is a MTH retailer. But even I didn't know the details of involvement. Gee...looks like MTH was justified in their legal pursuits afterall.
Someone else mentioned that the BLI cars may be N scale but after reviewing and analyizing the photo, I'd have to agree with Dave, that these are definately HO cars on HO Kato track - the tie spacing and rail height are a dead giveaway.
In BLI's favor, these could be pictures of pre-production models - I hope so... the details are not real crisp - especially the sturrups, already pointed out.
As I said in a previous post - I hope that BLI's cars will look better than the photos reveal.
They've done such a fabulous job on the Zephyr cars - probably the best offering they've ever done.
dave hikelHi Fred,You are very misinformed about the MTH settlement, who is using specific manufacturers in China and Korea, and the release dates of particular models.
Hi Fred,
You are very misinformed about the MTH settlement, who is using specific manufacturers in China and Korea, and the release dates of particular models.
I stand corrected.
Fred W
MTH's settlement was not with BLI directly but rather with Model Korea Trading Co. - MKT (formerly known as Korea Brass - KB) which supplies BLI and Lionel among others. The settlement resolved the last piece of the lawsuit between MTH, Lionel and KB. Lionel and KB were co-defendents. KB employees had stolen designs and production schedules from MTH's Korean supplier, Samhongsa. Criminal trials in Korea lead to the imprisonment of several KB employees. The evidence from the Korean criminal trials showed that Lionel's then Director of Engineering, Bob Grubba (now owner of BLI), was aware of and encouraged the theft. MTH used this evidence to file suit in US civil court. Lionel and KB lost their original trial and were ordered to pay MTH $40.8 million. Lionel filed for bankruptcy protection, appealed the case, and the appeals court remanded the case for a new trial. KB did not appeal and instead tried to evade the decision by reincorporating as a new company, MKT. A court ruling found MKT was in fact KB under a different name and was therefore liable for KB's debts, including the decision in the MTH suit. This lead to the settlement between MTH and MKT. In that settlement MKT agreed to pay MTH $950,000 in cash and to never again use the tooling based on stolen MTH designs, QSI agreed to drop its suits against MTH, BLI agreed to issue MTH and all other manufacturers royalty free sub-licenses to the Real Rail Effects sound patents, and certain Lionel and BLI locomotive tooling in MKT's possession were handed over to MTH. That tooling included the Lionel Challanger and Veranda Turbine, as well as six BLI tools (EMD F3, EMD F7, Alco PA, Alco FA, UP Big Boy, and GG-1 electric). No other tooling changed hands as part of the settlement. There was no agreement to "share" tooling. MTH now owns and posses the former BLI tools. KB agreed to make new tools for BLI in return. All of the above information comes from press releases by the interested parties and Erol Gurcan. Erol is a New York area lawyer and author for the Lionel Collector Club of America's publication The Lion Roars. Erol spent hundreds of hours personally attending Lionel's bankruptcy proceedings. Many of his postings and the press releases are still available on the CTT section of this forum and/or on the web site O Gauge Watch.
MTH and BLI use different manufacturers in China and Korea. After MTH's experience with stolen designs and production schedules they have become EXTREMELY protective of their intellectual property. After Samhongsa broke up in Korea MTH started their own factory there. The Korean factory makes most of the die cast zinc steam and electric locomotives, such as the GS-4 Daylight. BLI's steam locomotives are also produced in Korea but are made by MKT in a completely different factory from the MTH product. About the same time MTH set up their new Korean factory China changed its policy of foreign ownership of factories. MTH was able to purchase partial or total ownership interest in at lease four mainland China factories. Some of these factories only make products for MTH. Others make other non-train related products for people other than MTH. None of the factories makes train products for anyone other than MTH. MTH also owns a factory in Thailand that produces their transformers, decoders, command control systems, and other electronic products. Most of BLI's production in mainland China is handled by Sanda Khan. Sanda Khan makes train products for dozens of US brands, but not MTH. Sanda Khan was purchased by and is now a subsidiary of Kader. On June, 14th Kader sent letters to 60 smaller train manufacturers in N, HO, S, and O scales notifying them that they will no longer accept new orders. I have not yet learned if BLI was among those cut off by Kader. If so, it will obviously have an impact on where BLI products are manufactured.
Lastly, MTH and BLI are NOT issuing GS-4 models at the same time. MTH shipped their GS-4's and GS-6's more than a year ago. BLI has only recently posted photos of undecorated pre-production engines (very nice looking, BTW). It does appear that both companies will deliver the SP passenger cars in short order, but not the same cars at the same time in the same order. I received the first chair car from MTH this last week. BLI has not yet shipped any cars but has said they expect to ship the observation car first. There are also quite a few differences in the models visible in the sample photos posted of the two companies pre-production samples.
BLI articulated chair car
MTH articulated chair car
Just to name two differences, the MTH cars have much finer stirrups and grab irons while the BLI's diaphragms have the scissors gate extended across the vestibule. Some people have suggested that the BLI photos are of N-scale cars. I do not believe this to be the case. It is quite clear that the track in the photos is Kato HO Unitrack.