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Buy SP daylight cars from MTH or BLI? Locked

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Buy SP daylight cars from MTH or BLI?
Posted by johngriffey18ca1 on Saturday, June 12, 2010 10:56 PM

It appears MTH and BLI are releasing HO scale 17 car passenger sets for their SP daylight engines.  I am thinking of buying the cars.  Which company should I go with?

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Posted by twhite on Saturday, June 12, 2010 11:08 PM

I've received word that BLI is coming out with a complete set for the Daylights all at once.  Bam!  Just like that, after about 3 years of waiting. 

Frankly, if the Daylight is even HALF as good as the BLI California Zephyr cars, I'd go with them, hands down.  My CZ set is extraordinary.  The Daylight couldn't help but be equally as good, IMO. 

MTH products, at least what I've seen, just seems to be O Hi-Rail scaled down to HO.  I'm not denigrating O Hi-Rail in the least, but MTH's detail in HO seems to be oversized and a little 'clunky' for my tastes. 

I'm waiting for the BLI Daylights, myself.  I've got a GREAT brass Balboa GS-4 that's been waiting for a train for years.  Now I can get one.  Yippee! Tongue

Tom Big Smile

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Posted by Heritagefleet1 on Sunday, June 13, 2010 12:11 AM

johngriffey18ca1

It appears MTH and BLI are releasing HO scale 17 car passenger sets for their SP daylight engines.  I am thinking of buying the cars.  Which company should I go with?

I just received my MTH SP Daylight chair car, which was a single car release, from MB Klien. My thoughts?

Well, I own one of the relatively rare factory presentation sets(big black box) of the Broadway California Zephyr in the 13 unit WP set and those cars are the very best I've ever seen - including most brass models.

From the photos that BLI has posted on their website, I was very disappointed with the look of the detail - but the paintwork and artwrok appeared to be very well done.

So, I went ahead and ordered this coach car so I could get a 'hands-on' look and feel for MTH's offering. I can tell you - they do not disappoint. 

The car cost me roughly $68 incl S&H -Kliens prices are hard to beat.

Since the 1953 era sets and articulated cars will be arriving next month, and since I am very leerly of the somewhat 'heavy' detail of the BLI models, I'm rolling the dice and going for the MTH. I have the SP 4449 and WP GS-6 war baby steamers so it makes sense for me to stay with the same manufacturer.

I hope that the BLI cars are a lot better than the photos - those pictures of the close up detail look like an N scale car to me, particularly the sturrups.

I'm not sure if the BLI cars a lighted but the MTH has LED lighting already installed and although I haven't tried it yet, I think in 28 function land DCC, you can control the lighting from the DCC throttle.

If the rest of the cars are as nice as this, I'm going to be a very happy camper.  If not, I may be dragging hind teat trying to get a set of the BLI's!

BTW: Kliens said they were sold out in 32 hours and are trying to get more from MTH... their website shows them out of stock.

Check'em out before you buy either - everyones' tastes are different so you may like the others better.

Heve Fun Modeling!

Rick

 

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Posted by Rob_C on Sunday, June 13, 2010 1:52 AM

 Looks like Athearn is releasing a new coach in Daylight later this summer.  Maybe a full consist to follow?

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Posted by Heritagefleet1 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:24 AM

johngriffey18ca1

It appears MTH and BLI are releasing HO scale 17 car passenger sets for their SP daylight engines.  I am thinking of buying the cars.  Which company should I go with?

Okay...

I've had some time to really examine the new Daylight Coach from MTH I just got from M B Klien.

In response to my earlier post, I have confirmed that the LED lighting is not controllable by decoder BUT they are LED lighted and turn on once track power is applied and the car starts moving. they are flicker-free which I really like and they stay on for quite a while once a train makes a station stop. There is a capacitor inside each car that provides a 'trickle' of power when the cars are not moving and as long as there is power to the rails.

The detail is well beyond what I was expecting - interior is completely detailed including window shades, and the undercarriage is very well done - they've even got the steam line connections it each end as a separate casting, that is removable if you need to reposition the couplers(two postions available for coupler mounting screw location) for operation on smaller radii.

In the close-coupled range, the diaphrams are completely sealed and the minimum operating radius is 46".

The articulated cars will have an adjustable center truck that has positionable slots that can 'spread' the car sections far enough that the diaphrams will not touch(but not by much, allowing for use on 22" radii.

Other details include all the piping underneath and electrical cabinents and MU connections.

The most interesting feature is the end diaphrams, which are full width to the carbodys and are painited with a rubberized paint that matches the colors of the carbody- the diaphrams are operating and add a really nice look to the car...the entry detail at either end of the car is well done with attention to even the porthole windows chorme trim ring  and car number placards!

I'm going ahead wwith my order with MTh 's cars... I'm very pleased with the operating smoothness and features they offer.

I wish you all good luck with your choice of cars - again, I hope the BLI cars will look better in person than in the images on their website.

Rick

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Posted by twhite on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:42 AM

Rick: 


The more I look at the Daylight cars on the BLI website, the more I think that they've taken N-scale cars and photographed them in lieu of the cars that they will be releasing.  I know that the Daylight cars were shown on their website several years back during their initial announcement and these look like the same photos. 

I think this might be a fairly common practice with some manufacturers--posting photos of not-quite-in-production models with substitutes that are already in production in another scale.  I know that Sunset showed photos of their O-scale NP Challenger when they announced the HO version, and I believe MTH did the same with their GS-series SP 4-8-4's. 

So if the BLI Daylight cars are of the same quality of their CZ cars, we Daylight fans will have a plethora of riches pretty soon.  Your description of the MTH cars is certainly enough to make ME take a second look at them. Smile

Tom Big Smile

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Posted by Heritagefleet1 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:52 AM

I sure hope you're right about the BLI's... I was originally going for theirs, as I have a complete set of the WP Zephyr cars - I love those cars!

I may have created a monster though, as I showed this car to some fellow club members last evening and three of the SP guys that saw this car, were on their cell phones cancelling their orders for the BLI's.

I tried to tell'em to just wait - the other sets are not going to be out until next month but MTH's shipping schedule for delivering new product after it is announced has been like a swiss watch - announced and then here in about 4-6 weeks.

My reason for going with the MTH's has to do with the fact that I already have the 4449 GS-4 from them and the paint matches perfectly.

Rick

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Posted by Heritagefleet1 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:15 PM

I'm going to have some time later on today or early this evening so I'm going to take some digital images of the car and post them on here for you guys to see ... than you can see for yourself about the detail.

Rick

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:44 PM

twhite

I've received word that BLI is coming out with a complete set for the Daylights all at once.  Bam!  Just like that, after about 3 years of waiting. 

Frankly, if the Daylight is even HALF as good as the BLI California Zephyr cars, I'd go with them, hands down.  My CZ set is extraordinary.  The Daylight couldn't help but be equally as good, IMO. 

MTH products, at least what I've seen, just seems to be O Hi-Rail scaled down to HO.  I'm not denigrating O Hi-Rail in the least, but MTH's detail in HO seems to be oversized and a little 'clunky' for my tastes. 

I'm waiting for the BLI Daylights, myself.  I've got a GREAT brass Balboa GS-4 that's been waiting for a train for years.  Now I can get one.  Yippee! Tongue

Tom Big Smile

 Tom

 I agree with your assessment of the BLI Zephyr train and the coming Daylight train.  The BLI train is on its way with the observation car arriving at the end of this month.  I have reserved the post war train to use with a couple of Balboa GS4's and a Westside GS5 and a Key GS4.  I still want to purchase the BLI Daylight also because it will handle DCC better and they now will offer the post war version with the number boards moved back in the first shipment.  

The detail from the pictures that BLI showed of the first cars is really great and the BLI reputation for passenger cars is at the top of my list. The BLI will be a complete train with proper numbers for the complete sets of the morning Daylights for both the 1941 and post war trains. 

CZ 

 

  

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:51 PM

Rob_C

 Looks like Athearn is releasing a new coach in Daylight later this summer.  Maybe a full consist to follow?

Athearn said the coach is the only one that will be released in some previous news letter and this was probably due to both BLI and MTH announcing the later 1941 train. I do not have the exact cars they were going to offer, but it was only the ones used on the SJ if I remember correctly.  They could change their minds but the Genesis cars are 1937 prototypes and would have been used with the MT4 on the SJ Daylight after 1941. It is a great looking car and I purchased the Cascade painted one just to evaluate the quality.  It is very good and they were used on the SJ Daylight in Daylight colors and later on the Sunset train after the new 1941 train came on line.

 CZ

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 1:16 PM

 

I downloaded the MTH #2 catalog showing the AC6 and Big Boy and both are a welcome addition to our hobby. The AC6 with the modern cab is a needed locomotive for all SP fans.   I have the MTH N&W passenger set reserved and was looking to getting them early this spring.  They are really needed since my N&W J's have no passenger train to pull and the flue time is running out of both of them. 

   CZ

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 1:34 PM

John, 

At this point it's probably water under the bridge.  However, I would have to agree with Tom (twhite)'s original assessment.

From my own experience and observation, I find that MTH offerings - although good - are not as nicely detailed as BLI.  That being said, I would just as soon wait for the BLI SP Daylight passenger cars to come out - even if MTH gets theirs to market first.

Tom

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Posted by Heritagefleet1 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:43 PM

tstage

John, 

At this point it's probably water under the bridge.  However, I would have to agree with Tom (twhite)'s original assessment.

From my own experience and observation, I find that MTH offerings - although good - are not as nicely detailed as BLI.  That being said, I would just as soon wait for the BLI SP Daylight passenger cars to come out - even if MTH gets theirs to market first.

Tom

TStage...

I suppose you can wait for what ever you wish for... I'll have photos posted of the coach car here later on this evening of the MTH cars.

The detailing on these Daylight cars, as well as most other offerings by MTH in HO, are going to be a huge hit. Once I post the photos of the new MTH Daylight Coach this evening, I'll let everyone reach their own conclusions.

As for the OP, you asked which to go for?  My hard earned money goes to MTH - again. These cars are without doubt, on par with - if not better than - the Zephyr cars...and I know first hand, being the owner of a WP 13 car set..  And they're at a price about the same as a Walther passenger car. They are making my UP Streamliner cars look anemic - Walthers needs to step up their game...fast.

If BLI could get their act together and actually deliver a new product on time, as apposed to a 2-3 yr wait, they may be a contender in the HO market. It is obvious that they are gauging the production or their new projects based on reservation orders in advance...which is fine - but not having a definate date for arrival or at least a target date for estimated delivery has gotten really old with me. It isn't like they've cranked out a ton of new models in the last 4-5 years - most are variants and re-runs.

And with the Jury still out on the BLI's, I don't want to miss out on a sure thing.

Rick

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Posted by fwright on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:03 PM

Given BLI's and MTH's unwanted sharing of tooling, designs, and manufacturer, I suspect there is a pretty decent probability that the MTH and BLI Daylight cars are a lot closer than just different manufacturers who happened to make models of the same prototype.  Sharing of least some of the tooling almost certainly happened.

Which means you are debating differences between 2 puppies from the same litter.  Kind of amusing from the point of view of a person who does not have a vested interest.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:09 PM

Heritagefleet1

As for the OP, you asked which to go for?  My hard earned money goes to MTH - again. These cars are without doubt, on par with - if not better than - the Zephyr cars...and I know first hand, being the owner of a WP 13 car set..  And they're at a price about the same as a Walther passenger car. They are making my UP Streamliner cars look anemic - Walthers needs to step up their game...fast.

If BLI could get their act together and actually deliver a new product on time, as apposed to a 2-3 yr wait, they may be a contender in the HO market. It is obvious that they are gauging the production or their new projects based on reservation orders in advance...which is fine - but not having a definate date for arrival or at least a target date for estimated delivery has gotten really old with me. It isn't like they've cranked out a ton of new models in the last 4-5 years - most are variants and re-runs.

And with the Jury still out on the BLI's, I don't want to miss out on a sure thing.

Rick

HeritageFleet1

Rick

Both sets are probably going to be more than acceptable.  Post the pictures of the coach you received when you get time.  I would like to see the details.   The MTH color match for you is good idea since so no two companies ever get the exact shade of the Daylight the same.  Most of the time, they are close and will work together, but that has not always been the case.  

Post a picture of the smokebox front of your GS4 if you have time.   I noticed some details on the pictures that I was not aware of until that model. 

CZ

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:19 PM

fwright

Given BLI's and MTH's unwanted sharing of tooling, designs, and manufacturer, I suspect there is a pretty decent probability that the MTH and BLI Daylight cars are a lot closer than just different manufacturers who happened to make models of the same prototype.  Sharing of least some of the tooling almost certainly happened.

Which means you are debating differences between 2 puppies from the same litter.  Kind of amusing from the point of view of a person who does not have a vested interest.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

Fred

You might be correct, but after knowing about the lawsuit over the same manufacturer using the same tooling, I would have to think they are using different companies in China to make these models.  The only way they would be using the same company would be by using an agreement to allow such a production to take place.  I believe the BLI total list of Daylight cars is more correct and complete than what is listed by MTH.  Anyone know if this is true??

Interesting thought that the two companies might be using the same manufacturer.  Who knows how many companies are producing model trains in China.  This seems to be a mystery to us since they only label the models made in China and not a company name.  I prefer knowing the company name so the past reliability of the new product can be checked by past products.   

 

CZ 

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Posted by Heritagefleet1 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:00 PM

johngriffey18ca1

It appears MTH and BLI are releasing HO scale 17 car passenger sets for their SP daylight engines.  I am thinking of buying the cars.  Which company should I go with?

All.. here are a few images of the MTH HO SP Daylight Coach just released...I didn't have time to do a lot with this but I think there's enough info to get you the idea and level of detail on these cars.

Thanks,

Rick

HeritageFleet1

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440006.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440004.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440007.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440005.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440004.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440002-1.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440008.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440003.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440001.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440011.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440010.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/MTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440009.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/heritagefleet1/MTH%20HO%20SP%20DAYLIGHT%20COACH%202440%20DETAIL/CopyofMTHSPDAYLIGHTCOACH2440001.jpg

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:09 PM

Heritagefleet1

tstage

John, 

At this point it's probably water under the bridge.  However, I would have to agree with Tom (twhite)'s original assessment.

From my own experience and observation, I find that MTH offerings - although good - are not as nicely detailed as BLI.  That being said, I would just as soon wait for the BLI SP Daylight passenger cars to come out - even if MTH gets theirs to market first.

Tom

TStage...

I suppose you can wait for what ever you wish for... I'll have photos posted of the coach car here later on this evening of the MTH cars.

The detailing on these Daylight cars, as well as most other offerings by MTH in HO, are going to be a huge hit. Once I post the photos of the new MTH Daylight Coach this evening, I'll let everyone reach their own conclusions.

That's great, Rick.  Actually, I won't be waiting for anything.  Since I don't model the SP, I'm not particularly interested in either the MTH or the BLI offerings.  However, I should be allowed to express my "opinion" to the OP as equally as you have. Smile

Tom

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:16 PM

Thanks for posting the pics, Rick.  They do look nice.  I hope their 20th Century Limited passenger cars will look as good.

Tom

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Posted by Heritagefleet1 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:39 PM

TomStage...

I went back and read my post and perhaps I owe you an apology... I didn't mean to infer that you didn't have a right to post your views...that is not what I was trying to communicate.  I merely intended to state that you certainly have the right to wait on whatever you are looking for, from the standpoint of advance reservation ordering. I didn't phrase my thoughts well at all - hope you'll overlook my myopic statement.

 Glad you were able to download the pics ok...I think the 20th Century cars will be just fine. I'm just glad that someone is doing the great passenger trains besides what Walthers offers - sometimes you don't have a choice...now, maybe we will.

Rick

 

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Posted by rjake4454 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 7:33 PM

Very nice pics Rick. Now if they could just release those Powhatan Arrow cars..Approve

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Posted by johngriffey18ca1 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:02 PM

Rick, thanks for the pictures.  Everyone else, thanks for the input. I've decided to go with MTH on these cars.  I buy a lot of MTH HO scale products.  I am well aware of thier past dealings and somewhat shady lawsuit filled past.  But they make a great product, and I've gotten past those dealings and decided that a quality and detailed product is my #1 goal for purchasing items in this hobby.  So, I've ordered 1 of the cars from train world online and the other 16 cars I'll try to get as they release.

Thanks for the inputs!

-J

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:11 PM

Heritagefleet1

 

TomStage...

I went back and read my post and perhaps I owe you an apology... I didn't mean to infer that you didn't have a right to post your views...that is not what I was trying to communicate.  I merely intended to state that you certainly have the right to wait on whatever you are looking for, from the standpoint of advance reservation ordering. I didn't phrase my thoughts well at all - hope you'll overlook my myopic statement.

 Glad you were able to download the pics ok...I think the 20th Century cars will be just fine. I'm just glad that someone is doing the great passenger trains besides what Walthers offers - sometimes you don't have a choice...now, maybe we will.

Rick

Not a problem, Rick.  Thanks for taking the time to shoot and post the pics. Smile

Tom

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Posted by Heritagefleet1 on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:19 PM

rjake4454

Very nice pics Rick. Now if they could just release those Powhatan Arrow cars..Approve

Yeah... those are on my list of get it! items for my 611. They really look sweet. 

RIck

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Posted by johngriffey18ca1 on Saturday, June 19, 2010 12:36 AM

I hate to be a buzz kill to the guy who says that BLI is releasing all of it's daylight cars on June 28th, but I just spoke to a rep who says only the very last car will be released that day.  The others will trickle in.  Similar to how MTH is doing it.....

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Posted by dti406 on Saturday, June 19, 2010 9:12 AM

 

Heritagefleet1

rjake4454

Very nice pics Rick. Now if they could just release those Powhatan Arrow cars..Approve

Yeah... those are on my list of get it! items for my 611. They really look sweet. 

RIck

 

They should look sweet, they are pictures of Brass Car imported a number of years ago!

 

Rick

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Posted by fwright on Saturday, June 19, 2010 2:49 PM

CAZEPHYR
Fred

You might be correct, but after knowing about the lawsuit over the same manufacturer using the same tooling, I would have to think they are using different companies in China to make these models.  The only way they would be using the same company would be by using an agreement to allow such a production to take place.  I believe the BLI total list of Daylight cars is more correct and complete than what is listed by MTH.  Anyone know if this is true??

Interesting thought that the two companies might be using the same manufacturer.  Who knows how many companies are producing model trains in China.  This seems to be a mystery to us since they only label the models made in China and not a company name.  I prefer knowing the company name so the past reliability of the new product can be checked by past products.   

 CZ 

CZ

The near-simultaneous delivery of very, very similar models tells me that BLI and MTH are sharing production of the passenger cars as well as their locomotives.  I have no reason to believe differently.

The settlement of the MTH-BLI lawsuit was that the locomotive tooling was to be shared for certain specified locomotives for several years forward from time of settlement.  I forget the exact details.  But the near-simultaneous release of the same locomotive models with slightly different details, paint, and electronics tells me both BLI and MTH are adhering to the terms of the settlement.  Surely, neither wants the other to be releasing the same model at nearly the same time - they get to divide the market.

Actually, there is consensus that there are less than a half dozen Chinese model train manufacturers.  A new importer seeking production line space is up against real capacity restrictions, which supports the limited number of manufacturers position.

Kader, who owns Bachmann, is the giant.  Kader also produces Blackstone HOn3 and who knows what else under various agreements.  Blackstone, being owned by Soundtraxx, was able to get Bachmann to use Soundtraxx-OEM'd Tsunami decoders for Bachmann sound-equipped locomotives as part of the Blackstone production deal. 

BLI and MTH have been sharing a manufacturer, both before and after the lawsuit.  I see no reason for either to change from that manufacturer, provided they can stop the inter-mixing of their design and engineering efforts.  Before the MTH-BLI spat, there were inter-mixing issues with the Korean manufacturer for Lionel and MTH, and the Chinese manufacturer for Lionel and K-Line. 

Horizon Hobbies/Athearn/Roundhouse seem to have a separate manufacturer, or at least have been careful enough to make sure they have and keep exclusive rights to their designs.  The same goes for Atlas and Life-Like/Walters. 

I have to admit that recent Chinese plastic model trains are very, very nice - and have pushed plastic prices higher than ever.  Quality control on Chinese imports continues to be a little less than most of us would like.  But it is what it is until the current business model has run its course.

Fred W

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    June, 2005
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  • 286 posts
Posted by dave hikel on Saturday, June 19, 2010 7:15 PM

Hi Fred,

You are very misinformed about the MTH settlement, who is using specific manufacturers in China and Korea, and the release dates of particular models.

MTH's settlement was not with BLI directly but rather with Model Korea Trading Co. - MKT (formerly known as Korea Brass - KB) which supplies BLI and Lionel among others.  The settlement resolved the last piece of the lawsuit between MTH, Lionel and KB.  Lionel and KB were co-defendents.  KB employees had stolen designs and production schedules from MTH's Korean supplier, Samhongsa.  Criminal trials in Korea lead to the imprisonment of several KB employees.  The evidence from the Korean criminal trials showed that Lionel's then Director of Engineering, Bob Grubba (now owner of BLI), was aware of and encouraged the theft.  MTH used this evidence to file suit in US civil court.  Lionel and KB lost their original trial and were ordered to pay MTH $40.8 million.  Lionel filed for bankruptcy protection, appealed the case, and the appeals court remanded the case for a new trial.  KB did not appeal and instead tried to evade the decision by reincorporating as a new company, MKT.  A court ruling found MKT was in fact KB under a different name and was therefore liable for KB's debts, including the decision in the MTH suit.  This lead to the settlement between MTH and MKT.  In that settlement MKT agreed to pay MTH $950,000 in cash and to never again use the tooling based on stolen MTH designs, QSI agreed to drop its suits against MTH, BLI agreed to issue MTH and all other manufacturers royalty free sub-licenses to the Real Rail Effects sound patents, and certain Lionel and BLI locomotive tooling in MKT's possession were handed over to MTH.  That tooling included the Lionel Challanger and Veranda Turbine, as well as six BLI tools (EMD F3, EMD F7, Alco PA, Alco FA, UP Big Boy, and GG-1 electric).  No other tooling changed hands as part of the settlement.  There was no agreement to "share" tooling.  MTH now owns and posses the former BLI tools.  KB agreed to make new tools for BLI in return.  All of the above information comes from press releases by the interested parties and Erol Gurcan.  Erol is a New York area lawyer and author for the Lionel Collector Club of America's publication The Lion Roars.  Erol spent hundreds of hours personally attending Lionel's bankruptcy proceedings.  Many of his postings and the press releases are still available on the CTT section of this forum and/or on the web site O Gauge Watch.

MTH and BLI use different manufacturers in China and Korea.  After MTH's experience with stolen designs and production schedules they have become EXTREMELY protective of their intellectual property.  After Samhongsa broke up in Korea MTH started their own factory there.  The Korean factory makes most of the die cast zinc steam and electric locomotives, such as the GS-4 Daylight.  BLI's steam locomotives are also produced in Korea but are made by MKT in a completely different factory from the MTH product.  About the same time MTH set up their new Korean factory China changed its policy of foreign ownership of factories.  MTH was able to purchase partial or total ownership interest in at lease four mainland China factories.  Some of these factories only make products for MTH.  Others make other non-train related products for people other than MTH.  None of the factories makes train products for anyone other than MTH.  MTH also owns a factory in Thailand that produces their transformers, decoders, command control systems, and other electronic products.  Most of BLI's production in mainland China is handled by Sanda Khan.  Sanda Khan makes train products for dozens of US brands, but not MTH.   Sanda Khan was purchased by and is now a subsidiary of Kader.  On June, 14th Kader sent letters to 60 smaller train manufacturers in N, HO, S, and O scales notifying them that they will no longer accept new orders.  I have not yet learned if BLI was among those cut off by Kader.  If so, it will obviously have an impact on where BLI products are manufactured.

Lastly, MTH and BLI are NOT issuing GS-4 models at the same time.  MTH shipped their GS-4's and GS-6's more than a year ago.  BLI has only recently posted photos of undecorated pre-production engines (very nice looking, BTW).  It does appear that both companies will deliver the SP passenger cars in short order, but not the same cars at the same time in the same order.  I received the first chair car from MTH this last week.  BLI has not yet shipped any cars but has said they expect to ship the observation car first.  There are also quite a few differences in the models visible in the sample photos posted of the two companies pre-production samples.

BLI articulated chair car

MTH articulated chair car

Just to name two differences, the MTH cars have much finer stirrups and grab irons while the  BLI's diaphragms have the scissors gate extended across the vestibule.  Some people have suggested that the BLI photos are of N-scale cars.  I do not believe this to be the case.  It is quite clear that the track in the photos is Kato HO Unitrack.

Dave
  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • 227 posts
Posted by TwinZephyr on Saturday, June 19, 2010 8:46 PM
Dave, Your thorough explanation rings true with my understanding of the MTH - BLI situation.  Please, where might one find more information on this statement: "On June, 14th Kader sent letters to 60 smaller train manufacturers in N, HO, S, and O scales notifying them that they will no longer accept new orders."
  • Member since
    November, 2002
  • From: Colorado
  • 3,877 posts
Posted by fwright on Saturday, June 19, 2010 9:07 PM

dave hikel

Hi Fred,

You are very misinformed about the MTH settlement, who is using specific manufacturers in China and Korea, and the release dates of particular models.

 

I stand corrected.

Fred W

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