UP 4-12-2 It's difficult to make general quality statements about the brass importers that always hold true: Some of the highly detailed Custom Brass articulateds look great but need to be remotored and/or regeared to run well at all. The late Hallmark stuff, made by Samhongsa, was unbelievably good: Hallmark Supercrown Santa Fe 2-10-4's, 4-8-4's, and 4-6-4's with coasting drive. You can push them across a table top, and they roll magnificently well--likewise running on the layout. They are as good as anything Key or anyone else ever imported. John
It's difficult to make general quality statements about the brass importers that always hold true:
Some of the highly detailed Custom Brass articulateds look great but need to be remotored and/or regeared to run well at all.
The late Hallmark stuff, made by Samhongsa, was unbelievably good:
Hallmark Supercrown Santa Fe 2-10-4's, 4-8-4's, and 4-6-4's with coasting drive. You can push them across a table top, and they roll magnificently well--likewise running on the layout. They are as good as anything Key or anyone else ever imported.
John
I have to agree with you on this. I made a general statement and that is very bad when it concerns brass. I apologize for that. I just just trying to make the point that all brass is not created equal. I also have to agree with some other posts. To me brass just looks better than the plastic counterparts.
It's wonderful that you are so happy with camelback steamers!
In my case, I like big steam--really, really big. Even more than the saving of money to buy it, one then needs the layout to run it on.
At the time I designed my current layout, I was not ever anticipating to run large brass steam again, because I did not design the curves for that. My Kato 26.375" radius curves, all with 28.75" radius "easements" will accommodate few brass steamers. Perhaps if I'm fortunate a few 2-6-6-2's will negotiate them.
BiL Marsland (P5se Camelback) Lehigh Susquehanna & Western Northeastern Pennsylvania Coal Hauler All Camelback Steam Roster!! "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others" -- George Orwell, Animal Farm, Chpt. 10
P5se CamelbackjwhittenHoward ZaneUnfortunately brass collecting was never presented to the general public and remained within the confines of a very parsimonius community. Interesting. On the surface, one might believe that a member of a "parsimonious community" would be the very antithesis of a "Brass Collector". John Might I suggest that what Mr. Zane was in all probability alluding to with his "parsimonious" reference was that frugality in lifestyle does not necessarily equate to "cheap!" By leading life frugally, people of means remain people of means and are therefore able to afford a few extravagent "indulgences," as collecting handmade scale brass locomotives. In other words, just 'cuz ya have it don't mean ya gotta flaunt it!
jwhittenHoward ZaneUnfortunately brass collecting was never presented to the general public and remained within the confines of a very parsimonius community. Interesting. On the surface, one might believe that a member of a "parsimonious community" would be the very antithesis of a "Brass Collector". John
Howard ZaneUnfortunately brass collecting was never presented to the general public and remained within the confines of a very parsimonius community.
Interesting. On the surface, one might believe that a member of a "parsimonious community" would be the very antithesis of a "Brass Collector".
Well I'll throw my two cents worth in again, my interpretation of what Howard was saying is that being as the hobby of collecting brass locomotives has never caught on with the general public like collecting old railroad lanterns for example. I would say it's not too much of an exaggeration to say that one could go into possibly any antique store in the country and find an old railroad lantern and if not the owner would know where to find one and would not be shy about charging you a handsome fee. Same goes with old car memorabilia, muscle cars and Harley Davidson stuff. Both have hit the mainstream public like a title way therefore sending price up through the proverbial glass ceiling. While collecting brass locomotives has stayed within the model railroad community therefore limiting the number of potential buyers. So it's some what of a double edges sword as having a smaller audience it keeps the prices down good for buyers the same being said has the opposite effect for sellers or collectors. The bad thing is as I have no intention of ever selling any of my small collection as I've mentioned it's strictly for pure enjoyment purposes but on the other hand it would be nice to know that I may some day leave them to my son who will have a nice piece of change to help secure his future. But knowing my kid the way he is they will be down on the layout hauling freight before the plant me and thats ok too.........lol
Yes, by all means leave the brass painting to the pros.
We had a saying for owner paint jobs, based upon the condition abbreviations commonly used by The Caboose and others:
For example: FP OB N (factory painted, original box, new)
Some dealers use OP for Owner Painted.
I would add: OD for Owner Dipped (paint poor quality and way too thick!)
I understand about the car but that being said I would have sold it and bought a drivable one and pocketed the rest. Jay Leno would have bought it!
. " One tap of the hammer and the machine is running again. He presents his bill to the owner of the factory: $2002.95. The factory owner says "That's an outrage. I want a breakdown on this bill." The guy says "$2.95 is for the hammer. $2000 is for knowing where to hit."Dave NelsonWell after reading the rest of the posts this morning I had to throw in another two cents worth related to Howard's and Dave's story we all have our own field of experise which we have built up over the years and knowledge and experience is most definitely worth something weather your a tradesman, an attorney, a doctor or a Brass Train Appraiser we should actually consider ourselves lucky in the respect that there are honest people out there who for a fee are willing to share their knowledge so we know the true value of what we have. I had a prime example of that sitting in my shop yesterday a 1967 Big Block Corvette Convertible. with a very low serial number one of the first 25 to come off the line. A true collectible high dollar automobile or at least it used to be. I had this same car in my old business some years back for some minor mechanical work being as the new owner who inherited it from his late father knew little or nothing about cars other then where to put the key and the gas. When I first layed eyes on this car it was 100% original never touched and I stress in PERFECT CONDITION a true 100 point car if I ever saw one.. I went trough great pains to fine original parts to do the tune up and minor repairs to the car so as not to lower the cars value by using off the shelf parts. I am sure there are a few "car guys" on the forum who know what I am referring to. So through a friend of a friend this guy tracks me down, I sold the business and moved since the last time I saw him.
He calls me up and says he wants me to "freshen the car up" I asked him what he meant and he said well you'll have to see it. He pulls up in front of my house and unloads his trailer and drives it down the long driveway to my shop, blows the horn and I open the door and there is a 1954 corvette but it's a bright metallic red. I was speechless this car was the original factory white when i last saw it. I was like what the bleep did you do to this car! he replied why don't you like the paint job, he also had put hideous chrome wheels on it as well adding more insult to injury. My head was about to explode he started to tell me what he wanted done to the car and I stopped him n mid sentence and said No please get this piece of junk out of my shop. He was highly insulted. I said yes junk, you took a car a piece of history probably worth in excess of well over $500,000 maybe closer to $750,000 who knows in a better economy maybe a million plus and turned it into a ugly worthless piece of junk.
My point is if you have the money to spend on buying a nice brass engine simply just ask someone who knows what their worth to give you an idea of what to pay or do some research before you shell out your money. On the flip side of that as we all know a lot of brass loco's come through unpainted and I know Howard will bear me out when I say painting brass is NOT like painting a resin model. If your not 100% sure on how to do it then don't. You may have gotten a really nice deal on a beautiful engine that may have some value to it and by not painting it the correct way you will devalue the snot out of it.
"Yeah, I understand the sentiment, and I'm not a stranger to buying and selling... but things like trains, old computers, embedded electronics, motors, relays, electro-mechanical gadgets, electronic displays, and the whatnot purchased with the intent to sell, seem to too-often get piled-up in the back of my junk room instead... I have a hard time parting with fun stuff like that. On the other hand, I could probably build you a nice super-computer-slash-home-alarm-and-sprinkler system."
Ah the secrete here is to know what to buy, there is an old saying one man's trash is another man's treasure well a lot of that trash is still trash. I love looking at non train sites such as Craigslist.com etc. and seeing people list "Old trains" and put stupid prices on old junk thinking they are going to cash in on the collectible train market.
My final thoughts are I have no art so to speak of in my home, no paintings or sculptures no unique collectibles, old coins, stamps, antiques (except me) but I have a small collection of brass steam locomotives that I stumbled up on. I have them displayed in my living room in a nice oak display case. Everyone who comes over always looks at them and compliments me on how neat they are or how well detailed etc. and these are typically not train people now but quite the opposite so for me these are my pieces of fine art, my Rembrandt's and Picasso's etc.
"Buying brass with a clear conscience"--lol--that's good.
Turning 42 in one month, I can't buy even MTH with a clear conscience. I used half of a Christmas bonus on a second HO 4-12-2 to then have my lovely wife remind me (fairly often) that for the price of those two, we could go on a vacation this year.
It has come to pass that the "bonus" was in lieu of no pay raise last year or this year, and that the promised large pay raise (to make up for last year) this January was a lie--because we didn't get it.
Now working on 3 years with no pay raise, and one income supporting the family, there is no buying any motive power with a clear conscience in my case. I cancelled one pre-ordered engine, and just picked up the other, so I have no other engines ordered at this time.
I sold the two MTH HO 4-12-2's, gave the wife some money toward a vacation, and replaced them with a factory refurbished Paragon2 Y-6B at the bargain price. This actually has ended up being a great transaction, even though I lost money selling on Ebay, because the Paragon2 Y-6B is actually well worth the money--even after accounting for the loss on the 4-12-2's.
Even if I got a pay raise, the need to save something for my children's post-high school education combined with all the sports and scouting expenses is such that any future locomotive purchases will be limited.
I would not recommend for anyone to choose a career as a civil engineering consultant--there are better ways to make a living.
My 2c--
Many good comments here which I won't re-hash. My points are as follows:
WAY back in the late 1980s I bought a factory painted PFM GN Pacific (H-6 class - Glacier Park scheme) that had been manufactured a few years earlier. I ran the Pacific on my layout until I moved in the early 1990s. The Pacific has stayed in the box pretty much ever since, as my interest morphed from the GN to the CB&Q. I now own and run several BLI and Proto CB&Q steamers.
A few weeks ago a bit of flooding in the basement meant taking things off shelves so we could move the shelves and clean the floor. I came across the Pacific while doing so. Work stopped because I was unable to resist pulling out the Pacific and setting it on the track next to the expensive plastic units.
Despite its relatively small size (it was sitting next to 2-8-2s and 2-10-2s, plus a couple of 4-6-6-4s), the H-6 commanded the stable (or so it seemed to me). Modern plastic is very nice, but this nearly 30-year old brass was so much finer in subtle ways that the plastic paled by comparison.
It was like parking a Rolls Royce in a lot full of Cadillacs. The Rolls and the brass are in a class all their own.
None of which means I'll enjoy running the plastic locos any less, though!
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
This is where a newbie gets scared away from possibly buying a brass piece as the quality of running was all over the place, Hallmark is a good example, stuff produced by Samhongsa is good, as is the Supercrowns with the coasting drive, but early runs that might still look great, run like crap unless you know how to rebuild the drive. Having someone with experience in brass, what runs well, what needs tinkered with ect, helps greatly to a newbie to the brass world. Most guys absolulty hate the old Alco models brass diesels with the Kumata drive system. But I have the knack to get them to run as smooth as a modern diesel, and the drive noise down to a level similar to an old Athearn blue box engine. Still not up to the silent drives of todays models, but for the price and my desire to have brass diesels that fit my budget they fit the bill perfectly. What is nice about being in the market now, is many of the original buyers of those models are now heading for the big roundhouse and thier collections are coming on the market and at a time when prices are down. Much like the housing market, if you can afford to buy right now its a buyers market price wise. I used to see prices for say a PFM Pacific Coast shay pushing close to $1000, but now I can find them under $500 or even much lower for the exact same model. There is still no exact plastic shay to compete, Bachmann's is an early model of a 3 truck shay and has issues with the gears cracking, its just the current depressed state of the brass market in general cooling the prices down. For a long time the prices in the Brown Book of Brass were way out of date when compared to the market, but now they are very close to what models are selling for. Many are still priced much higher, but they are not selling to well at that price. Cheers Mike and Michele T
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
I collect brass. I mainly have PRR engines but I occasionally pick up a NYC or B&O. I buy and sell to build my own collection. Each time trying to upgrade to a better version. I have several Key models that in my opinion make the plastice look like a 5 dollar watch. I mainly started into brass beacuse before BLI most of the larger PRR steam could not be had unless you bought a brass one. I have made some money on selling but also lost some. I know what models I will not buy from experince. They just run like dogs no matter how much you tinker with them. The Key, Custom Brass, OMI, Oriental Limited, models seem to me to be the best running. Alco, Hallmark yuck....
Sam
As I think has been discussed quite thoroughly above, the plastic and/or diecast and/or brass hybrid steamers don't quite provide the level of detailing of the finest brass models.
However,
I can honestly say I've never had so much fun with running trains as I'm now having with my BLI Paragon2 Y-6B, the Athearn Genesis Big Boy, and the MTH Challenger. They are really fun to play with on the layout, even in just DC mode.
But, yes, they are not quite the same as a $2000 brass articulated. I have no illusions about that.
It will be a long time till I can afford a fine brass articulated.
I guess I'm a Post-Brass modeler: once played with brass trains, and might someday again, but might not, too.
I know that situation all to well John. I used to have a nice collection of PFM logging engines, those were sold to keep the bills paid during a long job layoff from the plastics factory I worked in at that time. I have slowly rebuilt my collection, but I stay with mostly more affordable models. Like the early diesels from Alco, Hallmark ect. I do have a Train and Trooper HOn3 ET&WNC 4-6-0 that needs a new home. Trying to find more brass diesels, espicaly Alco RS3's and RS11's
I must agree--I love the feel of brass.
I just no longer have the bread to pay for it. My last three brass engines were sold to help pay for our new house which was under construction at the time.
Perhaps someday I'll go back to brass--when the little kids are out of the house...
I enjoyed everybodys stories and views on brass and estates. I myself like the feel of a brass engine over any plastic one. Just something about a metal train, be it brass, diecast or other metal. I have owned some of the newest plastic stuff and it just feels so fragile, even when compared to a very recent production brass HOn3 engine that feels fragle when compared to older brass HOn3 engines. I operate or plan to operate all my brass engines. In fact tonight at the local club I ran my old Alco models Alco RS11 for over 3 hours between yard duties and working my local freight. While she has been upgraded to 8 wheel power pickup, she still sports her original open frame motor and gears. Yes I could buy any one of several other RS11 models and I am sure they would run quiet and smooth, but I dont mind the gear and motor noise and mine is nice and smooth. I enjoy the feel, the sound and the smells that go with brass engines. Several of my pieces have come from local modelers estates, and while I did get a good deal, I felt the price was fair give the current state of the economy and the brass market in general. Mike
Howard--
Thanks for your story, too.
I would agree 100% with Howard on the appraisal--especially where really serious money is involved.
The rest of my story:
In the case of my friend's collection, I did the appraisal myself (based upon current market prices and my having been with him when he bought some of the pieces) and actually came within 2% of the dealer's internet listed pricing on the 160 or so brass items. I was actually close on the price of every single engine--within about $100 of his selling price on the big ticket items. As a learning exercise, I wanted to see how my figures matched up--so I did track every single item on the dealer's website--of course, website asking price is not necessarily the same as final selling price.
(Disclaimer: under normal circumstances, an appraisal is best left to the professionals.)
We had another friend who offered to sell the same collection on Ebay for a percentage per item, but my (incarcerated at the time) car dealer friend just didn't have time.
The dealer who actually bought the collection was known to be a very reputable, big name dealer--who had actually sold some of the items to my friend in the first place.
Unfortunately, if you are in a position where you have to sell now, and not 3 weeks from now, you may end up getting less than 40 cents on the dollar--even from a reputable dealer.
My friend has no hard feelings at all toward that dealer--and in fact has dealt with him since, and would continue to buy and sell at that train shop.
My personal regret is that we didn't have a couple more weeks to double my friend's money on the sale. If we had known his money situation at the time, myself and other local people could have likely doubled his take of the money (this was early in the Ebay era).
The sad part was seeing a number of models I had enjoyed operating, and enjoyed helping to shop for, go for way less than my friend shelled out to buy them. I can only describe it as being almost like having a death in the family--a part of you dies when the collection goes under those circumstances.
However, in my mind's eye, I can still see some of those great brass steamers running around the large attic layout with long trains...
Allegheny2-6-6-6Just FYI the next time you come across "junk" engines like that selling that cheap don't be concerned with weather they fit your era or not. Think of them as selling material for purchasing things you really want.
Yeah, I understand the sentiment, and I'm not a stranger to buying and selling... but things like trains, old computers, embedded electronics, motors, relays, electro-mechanical gadgets, electronic displays, and the whatnot purchased with the intent to sell, seem to too-often get piled-up in the back of my junk room instead... I have a hard time parting with fun stuff like that. On the other hand, I could probably build you a nice super-computer-slash-home-alarm-and-sprinkler system...
EDIT: Apparently you can't use some Latin words on this forum... who knew?
dknelsonHoward Zane's story reminds me of one my father, a lawyer, used to tell people who questioned his fees. A huge factory relies on a certain machine 100% for its complete production. One day the machine doesn't run, and in a panic the factory calls in the one guy who claims to know how to fix it. He walks in, looks at the machine, and pulls a hammer out of a paper bag. One tap of the hammer and the machine is running again. He presents his bill to the owner of the factory: $2002.95. The factory owner says "That's an outrage. I want a breakdown on this bill." The guy says "$2.95 is for the hammer. $2000 is for knowing where to hit." Dave Nelson
Dave Nelson
I have a story like that too-- many years ago I was in the midst of one of my robotics projects and decided to farm-out the final-design and construction of the chassis to a local machine shop. While I was there I got to chatting with the owner and his son, who were nice good ole' boys who didn't know much about robots but they could sure make a mean midget racer... So in the course of conversation I came to find out they had a couple of expensive machines down, a CNC lathe and an CNC milling machine. They told me how the one was "always going down" and would typically cost them $20k for the part to fix it from the mfgr, and the other used to work okay but had gotten sporadic (intermittent) a year or so earlier and they had no end of problems with it.
So, thinking I'd be nice and see what I could do to help them out, I came in with my scope and troubleshooting equipment, and took apart their lathe-- turned out to be some connectors that needed cleaning and board that wasn't seated. Then I fixed their milling machine-- worked on that thing for almost two days until I figured it out-- it was a squirrelly beast too... until I pulled the metal shavings from between the legs of the chips on one of the I/O boards. They were loose so sometimes they'd be out of the way and the machine would work. Other times they'd get vibrated between the legs of the chips and short something out and create an errant input. A can of air and a can of 'Lectra-clean fixed the whole thing.
Then I got the bill for the robot chassis... and discovered how they'd been paying for all those repairs... (sigh)
I probably should have sent them a bill of my own.
I think that collecting is a separate branch of the hobby. Years ago I shared a cubicle with a guy who collected N scale. He didn't run it except for test running new locomotives. He didn't build models. While he would buy anything decorated for N&W, he also bought other pieces as they appealed to him. The collection was the goal. And of course you have the Toy Train Collectors. The rarer toy trains are like brass - expensive and you have to be a knowledgeable collector. But still, for both the collection is the goal.
Since this forum is oriented towards the model building and operating branches of the hobby, you don't see many Collectors here. Mainly those that are also builders and/or operators.
Enjoy
Paul
Brass collecting is an art and a hobby all to it's own. because they fetch such high prices you need to be very well educated. I have some brass and by no way consider myself any where near knowing all of what I should know but I have two very very well informed individuals I can always reach out to when and if a situation like your came my way. I have seen brass locomotives sell for $4500 so without knowing what exactly was being sold I would have to generalize that $850 was a bargain basement price.
Just FYI the next time you come across "junk" engines like that selling that cheap don't be concerned with weather they fit your era or not. Think of them as selling material for purchasing things you really want.
I was at a train show and it was getting close to closing time and a guy had a bunch of nice rolling stock that was much more modern then I run but the price was right so I shelled out what wound up to being a $1.00 per car. Had the whole collection sold with in two weeks. I know some are not really into buying and selling but I would have to say 75% of train budget has come from the proceeds of such sales.
Howard Zane Folks, remember I had her list, and on a bad day the value would have been well over $350,000 assuming all were mint as she had claimed. I did not at the time know any dealer that would have offered her less than half or $175,000 over night. Most dealers then including me were offering around 70% of estimated street value. HZ
Folks, remember I had her list, and on a bad day the value would have been well over $350,000 assuming all were mint as she had claimed. I did not at the time know any dealer that would have offered her less than half or $175,000 over night. Most dealers then including me were offering around 70% of estimated street value.
HZ
Howard Zane's story reminds me of one my father, a lawyer, used to tell people who questioned his fees. A huge factory relies on a certain machine 100% for its complete production. One day the machine doesn't run, and in a panic the factory calls in the one guy who claims to know how to fix it. He walks in, looks at the machine, and pulls a hammer out of a paper bag. One tap of the hammer and the machine is running again. He presents his bill to the owner of the factory: $2002.95. The factory owner says "That's an outrage. I want a breakdown on this bill." The guy says "$2.95 is for the hammer. $2000 is for knowing where to hit."
I don't consider myself a "brass collector" but I've bought a few old, ruined brass engines that I'm tinkering with in the hopes of getting running and in better shape than originally manufactured. Some of these wrecks still set me back $200.00. I see them as good solid "bones" to work on. I generally don't buy brass that doesn't need work though for some odd reason.
My reason for buying brass is quite different than most collectors. My goal is to have one model (at least) of each class of PRR steam for the layout. I'm not opposed to plastic and I am actually very fond of BLI's locomotives. However, the only way that I will eventually do this is to buy some brass or learn to scratchbuild the locomotive myself. (Still working on that latter part).
I guess I'm not in the same class of people Howard Zane is discussing but I can answer your last question. Yes, I am heavily invested in my motive roster. No, my wife does not know how much of an investment this is other than my statement of "If I die, don't dump these in the garbage or sell them in a garage sale. Take them to an appraiser."
Howard Zane This is a very intersting thread. I think I can simplify the discussion of brass vs.other rather easily.I have found that folks who purchase brass....quite basically do so because they can. I hope this statement does not come off as arrogance as it is not the intention. HZ
This is a very intersting thread. I think I can simplify the discussion of brass vs.other rather easily.I have found that folks who purchase brass....quite basically do so because they can.
I hope this statement does not come off as arrogance as it is not the intention.
Howard:
No, your statement doesn't come off as arrogant at all, at least to me.
However, might I offer an alternative thought: Some of us purchase brass because it's the ONLY way that we can have a representative roster of locomotives representing the particular railroad that we're modeling.
In my case, Rio Grande standard gauge steam of the WWII era--there are only two current plastic models available, the Proto 2000 L-109 3500 series USRA-clone 2-8-8-2, or the L-97 3800 UP-clone series of 4-6-6-4's, either from Genesis or MTH (I believe). The former was used basically as a helper locomotive, and the latter was so disliked by the Rio Grande that they didn't even buy them, just leased them and sold them as quickly as they could.
Which leaves me with brass, if I'm to have a representative OPERATING steam roster. Luckily, for the most part, USED Rio Grande brass steam is generally available at about--or sometimes under--the price I'd be paying for newer plastic steam from current manufacturers (assuming I was modeling the railroads that they're releasing models for in the first place). I have seldom if ever paid four figures for used brass, though I have gladly paid full retail for a NEW brass loco that I really wanted (and incidentally, runs like a Swiss watch).
Some of the older brass I've bought needed to be 'tinkered' with, but the result has always been a well-running locomotive, once I've finished working on it. Having had brass locos for the past four decades, I'm used to that. It comes with the territory, so to speak. Luckily, brass is easy and VERY forgiving to work on. And being a DC modeler, it's pretty basic, both electrically and mechanically.
So for me, it works out pretty well both ways--I get a decent representation of a locomotive for the railroad that I model, and with some occasional work, I get a powerful, smooth-running locomotive in the bargain. And sometimes I'm spending FAR less than I might for the price of current plastic.
But then, as you can see, I'm one of those brass 'Collectors' who collects them to put them to work on my model railroad. And believe me, my fairly extensive collection of brass Rio Grande steam TRULY gets a workout on the layout over the course of a year.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Howard it is a pleasure to have you pipe in here. Any more stories I am sure would be appreciated!
Howard Zane"Mr. Zane, remember me? I'm the lady you tried to rip off with your outrageous appraisal fee. I just want to let you know that I got over $75,000 for the brass models...and without your help!!
It's a shame you didn't just give her the $75k yourself and pocket the difference. LOL !!!
doctorwayneForwards, backwards, tight curves, turnouts, it performed flawlessly. Watching it creep along, the wheels undulating over minor irregularities in the track was the first time I realised that my trackwork wasn't flawless.
Sounds sweet!
Maybe my retirement account-- er, lottery ticket will win and I can find out first-hand!