Let's talk Couplers - HO Knuckles....................

[mobilman44]

Hi!

As some of you may recall from my previous postings, I've spent the last year building a new 11x15 two level HO layout.  In the last couple days, I finished the DCC wiring of the main level outer main, which is essentially a large loop.  My construction method is to lay a portion of track, wire it, and test it thoroughly before moving on to more track.

Soooo, I brought out some of the 150 cars and made up a 16 car train (along with a BLI 2-10-2 and RSD-15) to test the new trackage.  Note that these 150 cars (I've got about 300 more) all have knuckle couplers and Intermountain wheelsets and have been checked out a couple of years ago.

Well, I soon found that some of the cars would just not stay coupled - or be very difficult to couple in the first place.  Each of these cars had "non-Kadee" couplers!  Now I've been a KD advocate for decades, but several kits (and a few ready to run) cars I've bought in the last 8 years come with "other" couplers.  I figured they would be OK, but now I just don't think they stand the test of time.

Sooo, it looks like these cars are going to the RIP track, and I'll open up that big pack of KD whisker couplers and replace the "rubber" ones.

Am I the "lone ranger" with this situation, or have you had similar problems???? 

ENJOY,

Mobilman44 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

 Every time I get a new Bachmann or Athearn car (that's mostly what's available here) they always have couplers from 'some other' supplier. They get Kadee couplers just as soon as I have time to change them out. At the moment I have some tank cars that need shelf couplers. I'll order them as soon as I have the funds.

[Driline]

 Nope, I have the same problem as you.Those couplers may look good, but they just don't work as reliable as the Kadees. Change them out.

[ndbprr]

As the old saw say's, "You've used the rest.  Now use the best".  Kadee and only Kadee for me.

[pastorbob]

My practice since 1960's was to put Kadee on anything I bought.  that practice continues today, and I keep an inventory of the shelf and the 5's on hand.  Each new piece of equipment is checked when purchased and it goes to the work table before entering service to remove the junk and put in Kadees.

Other than a lost knuckle spring once in a while, I don't have failures.  Oh, I also make sure they are at the right height with a gauge before turning them loose on the railroad.

Bob

 

[dknelson]

We are at least beyond the absurd ritual of opening up an HO kit and the first action was immediately tossing out the horn hooks , or buying a ready to run item and first thing removing the horn hooks and throwing them away. 

Not all non-Kadees are equally objectionable in my experience.  At least as of now my attitude has been to give the non-Kadees a chance with the notion that if they fail they will definitely be replaced by an official Kadee product. 

Dave Nelson

 

[simon1966]

First up let me say that I prefer to use Kadee's myself.  However, not all the "other" brands are as bad as each other.  Those that use the plastic filament knuckle spring are borderline worthless.  These can fail with a car in storage as I discovered when some were left in a box that resulted in the filament getting deformed into a wide open setting.  Having said that, some of the McHenry couplers that use real metal springs for the couplers are not too bad.  They are not as strong as the Kadee and simply don't do well for long heavy trains, and most certainly don't hold up well in accident situations.  But for shorter, less weight trains in certain applications they have worked well for me.  In particular they have held up well in some cheap IHC passenger cars.

[MisterBeasley]

dknelson

We are at least beyond the absurd ritual of opening up an HO kit and the first action was immediately tossing out the horn hooks , or buying a ready to run item and first thing removing the horn hooks and throwing them away. 

I just bought a pair of Walthers "platinum line" cabeese.  The couplers weren't Kadee, but they seem to fall in the "acceptable until they fail" category.  But, there was still a package of horn-hooks in the box.  And no matter how many times I find horn-hooks, it never fails to make me chuckle.  Thanks, Walthers, for adding a smile to my day.

[grizlump9]

 looks like coupler controversy is akin to the "better mousetrap" syndrome.  nothing beats the old victor snap trap and a piece of cheese.

 i personally find that the different makes of couplers don't "play well together" and like others, i replace the clones with an original Kadee at the first sign of trouble. some of the odd balls work ok for a while but it is safe to say that all of them will probably get changed out eventually.  i use the number 5's with the original style metal centering spring in the draft gear box and when properly adjusted, they give dependable service and are almost bullet proof.

 even then, an occasional balky one requires a little nudge to get it centered properly but that is a lot easier to do in HO scale than when i worked with the 12"=1' ones.

 Kadees may not be the best "value" as some define it and a lot of guys are happy with the clones but i see it like buying a Cadillac automobile or IBM computer.  they might cost more but few people complain about them after they own one.

 if i were still in the market for more rolling stock, i would gladly pay an extra buck for cars and locos that come equipped with original Kadee couplers instead of some of the junk that is on a lot of them now.

grizlum 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

To echo many of the comments here, EVERY car and loco on my layout has genuine Kadee couplers.

AND, I personally use only the orginal standard head couplers, no semi scale versions for me. Using NMRA standard track and wheel sets results in an amount of possable side play that requires the larger couplers for reliable coupling. The smaller "gathering range" of the semi scale couplers and NMRA track standards does not provide reliable enough coupling in my opinion.

All the "clones" suffer from one or all of several faults. Most are larger and looser than the Kadee, creating too much train slack action and larger distances between coupled cars. The ones with plastic knuckle springs are famous for loosing their "spring" and none are up to the weight of even 50 car trains for extended periods of time.

In addition to only using Kadee couplers, most of my rolling stock has Kadee sprung metal freight trucks outfitted with Intermountain wheel sets. After much testing this was found to be the freeest rolling and best tracking truck to be had.

Sheldon

[kog1027]

Again, I don't pull couplers off of RTR cars.  Too likely to break something.

I measure with a coupler height guage and adjust where needed.  I also test wheels for rolling and roundness, trucks for proper flex.

So far I've not encountered issues with the Clone couplers once they've been tested.

I have replaced couplers that fail testing for one reason or another.  I used regular McHenry's until I ran out, then  scale McHenry's and now scale whisker Kadee's ( Those are what my LHS had in stock. ), they all seem to work just fine together.

Over on the Atlas forums they are talking up Segents, which are nice but don't interoperate with Kadee's or Clones.

Mark Gosdin

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

kog1027

Again, I don't pull couplers off of RTR cars.  Too likely to break something.

I measure with a coupler height guage and adjust where needed.  I also test wheels for rolling and roundness, trucks for proper flex.

So far I've not encountered issues with the Clone couplers once they've been tested.

I have replaced couplers that fail testing for one reason or another.  I used regular McHenry's until I ran out, then  scale McHenry's and now scale whisker Kadee's ( Those are what my LHS had in stock. ), they all seem to work just fine together.

Over on the Atlas forums they are talking up Segents, which are nice but don't interoperate with Kadee's or Clones.

Mark Gosdin

Mark,

How long are your trains? With short trains the clones seem to work OK. Those of us running 35 car, 50 car or even longer trains generally find them to be a problem.

Sheldon

[markpierce]

grizlump9

 looks like coupler controversy is akin to the "better mousetrap" syndrome.  nothing beats the old victor snap trap and a piece of cheese.

Professional rodent catchers tell me peanut butter is the preferred bait.  I didn't think to ask whether chunky or creamy style is best.

Mark

[ford86]

Every car I build or buy goes through the "new car" routine, weight cars to nmra specs, replace all couplers with kadee's or the walthers proto max metal couplers (those are just as great btw) gauge the wheels/coupler height and change out cars that have those real roller bearings or plastic wheel with intermountian for the sole purpose of being able to put a small stamp resistor on one axle for detection.

 I have found that the "other" couplers that are made from plastic dont hold up very well to properly weighted trains, either a coupler would snap pulling up a grade or a operator would do a high speed ram and the knuckle would actually bend back over the side.

[jfallon]

 I have only one exception to my own "Kadees or don't run" rule, I have used the extended McHenry couplers on some IHC/Rivarossi passenger cars. I have a N&W Powhatan Arrow set that gets run once in a while as an excursion train, and the knuckle couplers let me run it with Athearn Heavyweights. The McHenrys are a pop-in replacement, so I don't need to try and body mount the couplers. Yeah, I'm lazy that way .

                                                                          John

[dehusman]

Every car I build now gets Kadee #58's and semi-scale wheels.

[kog1027]

Sheldon,

10 to 20 cars.

I freely admit that I might look at things differently if I ran, what for me would be, monster trains of 50 cars and had the track grades that some folks have.

On the other hand, I have run trains that size and larger on my friend's old layout back in the 1970's.  We also managed to snap more than one Kadee knuckle or shank - thanks to less than stellar trackwork.  It'd make my friend quite angry when that happened.

Mark Gosdin

 

[wholeman]

I have noticed that the Proto Max couplers sometimes have a small burr on the coupler face that prevents them from coupling at extremely slow speeds.  I had to couple them at a faster speed and the car would roll significantly which didn't look very prototypical.  That is why everything I own has KDs or is going to get them in the near future.

Just my casual observations.

[da_kraut]

 Hi,

I used to put McHenrys on all freight cars.  While being between layouts some of the cars were stored on their side for about a year.  This caused the little plastic whisker to weaken.  So when the cars were put back in service they would not couple, even worse while going down an incline with the train pushing on such a coupler it would uncouple once there was no more pushing action from the cars behind.  Kadees were never an issue for this and if then just replace the little spring and everything is good.

Plastic couplers also do not like long freights on my helix with 2.2% incline.  Trust me pull apart situations can get really nasty really quickly. 

Hope this helps.

Frank

[Flashwave]

kog1027

Over on the Atlas forums they are talking up Segents, which are nice but don't interoperate with Kadee's or Clones.

True. The one problem I've had with Sergents is the coupler wand likes loose metal handrails. I had a CIRROPS guy tell me that Sergents were no better than McHenry, I find it to be apples/oranges. But I do think they are a tad bit stronger, using gravity versus a horizontal spring, there's less give in th eknuckle itself

[Scarpia]

For what little it's worth, I'm moving my cars to Sergents. I find they look better, and I've had lot better luck using them then the Kadees and knock offs.

I can see how the tool could pull a handle though. I also don't like that the tools seem to shatter on my bare concrete floor, always breaking in two when I drop them.

There is a lot of resistance to the Sergents from folks. Some of them are legitimate concerns

- It would be a pain and expensive to convert a large fleet of rolling stock,

- it would be a bummer to not use your rolling stock in interchange traffic with other modelers if that's your thing, and

- you do need to be able to reach the models, which makes layouts that are not designed that way much more difficult.

Some of the other concerns seem more related to a general resistance to change, and similar in tone to some of the classic model railroading arguements.

I had the opportunity to speak to Frank Sergent about the strength of the Sergents in practice. Here is his reply - and note that he ok'd my posting his comments in public forums. They seem plenty strong enough.

Seventy cars that weigh 3 oz would need about [70 cars X 3 oz/car X 0.01) =
] 2.1 oz of pull on straight and level track. That will require one average
HO diesel to pull it. This isn't even starting to stress the couplers. No
problem.

Seventy cars that weight 3 oz going around a reasonable curve, and up a 3%
grade will need about [70 cars X 3 oz/car X (0.01 + 0.02 + 0.03) = ] 8.4 oz
of pull. That's about 3 decent engines to pull it. Again, we aren't
stressing the couplers at all.

Ten average diesels all pulling together will against a nail driven in the
middle of the track will start spinning their wheels at about [(10 X 3.5 oz)
= ] 35 oz of pull. The couplers will feel that for sure, but this is still
no problem.

Twenty really good diesels all pulling against the nail can generate [(20 X
4.5 oz) = ] 90 oz of pull before the wheels start spinning. That's enough to
make me nervous, but still below any sort of failure point as long as the
couplers are assembled correctly.

Forty really good diesels all pulling against the nail will generate 180 oz
of drawbar pull. That's just silly.

I don't think 70 cars would be a problem at all.

Back when Railmodel Journal was still alive, they printed a Performance
Summary of locomotives in what seemed like every issue that was pretty
useful. It gave tractive force measurements for all sorts of locomotives.

Thanks,
Frank

 

[mobilman44]

Hi again!

Well, it looks like my situation is pretty common.  My "layout ready cars" have been off track for the last year while construction is taking place.  Therefore, what was once an acceptable "rubber" coupler has now weakened. 

I've got an excellent supply of various KDs, and will replace the faulty "other" couplers as needed.  Meanwhile, I've got a lot of layout construction ahead of me and these bad order cars will sit in a box until I can get to them.

By the way, I've also noticed that the handful of MDC (model die casting) cars I built from kits tend to be more troublesome than say the Athearn or various high end kit cars. 

Thanks all,

Mobilman44

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Scarpia

For what little it's worth, I'm moving my cars to Sergents. I find they look better, and I've had lot better luck using them then the Kadees and knock offs.

I can see how the tool could pull a handle though. I also don't like that the tools seem to shatter on my bare concrete floor, always breaking in two when I drop them.

There is a lot of resistance to the Sergents from folks. Some of them are legitimate concerns

- It would be a pain and expensive to convert a large fleet of rolling stock,

- it would be a bummer to not use your rolling stock in interchange traffic with other modelers if that's your thing, and

- you do need to be able to reach the models, which makes layouts that are not designed that way much more difficult.

Some of the other concerns seem more related to a general resistance to change, and similar in tone to some of the classic model railroading arguements.

I had the opportunity to speak to Frank Sergent about the strength of the Sergents in practice. Here is his reply - and note that he ok'd my posting his comments in public forums. They seem plenty strong enough.

I certianly understand the appeal of the Sergent coupler. And you do seem to understand many of the reasons others are not interested in them. But I would like to comment about the "resisance to change" comment.

Professionally I am a Residential Architectual Desginer and Residential Historic Restoration Consultant. In what I do, and how I see the world, there is a lot of "change" done just for the sake of change, not because something is better, but just because it is new, or different, or sometimes because it is cheaper or easier.

Applying that to this question, one must first undrstand the desired goals. Sargent couplers meet a specific set of high detail, close up, prototype operation goals very well. Because they do that so well, they fall short of the oposite set of goals, casual coupling from a distance being the main one, which you did point out.

Many modelers who are very prototype detail or operation focused assume that all or most modelers would desire these same features should technology and resources allow. This is simply not true. Many modelers are more casual OR feel that however detail/prototype oriented they are, changing their goals and methods which each new idea/product is not practical.

I have said this about a number of aspects of the hobby. I have been doing this a long time, I have lots of "stuff". I'm not going to "reinvent" my modeling goals with each new wave of product, nor am I going to "replace" large precentages of high quality products just because something slightly better comes along.

And, I must say, over the 40 years I have been in this hobby, I have become more casual, not more intense about how I approach it. So, while I understand and repect others interest in these "advancements", I also full understand those who are happy with the "old" ways.

I still run DC, but with radio throttles,

My locos don't have onboard sound,

All my couplers are standard head Kadee's,

All my track is to NMRA standards,

All my wheelsets are .110" wide,

I keep weathering to a very light minimum,

But I consider the following standards desired or prefered:

Most of my freight trucks are sprung and metal,

My curves are large (36" and bigger),

The diaphragms on my passenger cars touch all the time,

My train lengths are realistic for my era (30-50 cars or longer),

Signaling is essential for Class I operations,

and reaching all these goals will not be interuped by new ones.

However I do applaud your willingness to test this new product and its application. 

Sheldon

 

 

[nbrodar]

 Kadees all the way.   I've had more then one of the plastic clones get squished in storage or the plastic spring lose it's spring.  The new clones with the metal springs work OK, I still find them no match for KDs.

My passenger cars still have the clones though.  They get KDs as they cycle through the shop, and after the freight cars get their KDs.  The IHC cars have the McHenery snap in replacements, and will probably never get KDs before I Evil-bay them.

Nick

[Scarpia]

Sheldon, thanks for your reply.

Note that my comment on resistance wasn't in any way aimed at any individual, including yourself, but instead at distinct trends I've seen in threads throughout my limited 2 years in the hobby, and participation on this forum.

I have in that limited time gotten the impression that replies to inquires are often derived from not as much fact, as they are from personal impression. To have an open conversation on knuckle couplers in HO scale and not include Sergents, or to have them dismissed out hand as being change for change's sake, does the reader in someways an injustice.

I prefer to put the options forth, hopefully without bias and with some background and let the indivdual make decisions that work best for them. In this case were someone to consider the fix to their problem by replacing all of their couplers with Kadees, it would simultaneously be a good time to consider other paths if applicable.

As you noted, despite being a fan of the Sergents, I readily acknowledge the negatives, and think it's important they're shared right along with the positives.

Per you comments on change as a whole, please note that I honestly don't care what or how you choose to pursue the hobby. What I do care about, and greatly appreciate, is your willingness to share your experiences with the path's that you have chosen, as that information is very useful.

For the record, I model in HO, am now converting my locos to DCC with Sound, now use Sergents, now hand lay my track, am moving away from insulation foam scenery, and participate regularly in operating sessions on an purposely un-sceniced highrail American Flyer S scale layout, using both AC and DC block controls. Kind of an interesting shotgun blast of old and new.

Cheers!

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

 Just to be fair I should point out that I've tried Sergent couplers. For my needs I found them lacking. I have areas on my layout where I do coupling/uncoupling operations that are not within easy reach. In these areas the Sergent couplers are impractical as they have to be aligned by hand and uncoupled by hand with the uncoupling wand. Another problem is that my track is not level but has rises and dips that cause the coupler heads to ride up and down against each other. This isn't a problem with the standard head Kadee couplers or the Kadee shelf couplers but was a major point of heartburn with the Sergents as they would separate in these areas. It is for these reasons that I will not be converting my locos and rolling stock to Sergents and not because of some kind of resistance to change.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Scarpia,

I too have only been on this forum for only a few years, but as noted, have been in the hobby for over 40.

I did not take your comments in any negative light, or think they were directed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to be a little more clear myself and see your position more clearly. So thank you for the thoughtful response and for sharing your modeling interests.

All to often on here, as you have noted the "resistance to change" crowd, there is also the "you HAVE to do it the latest, greatest, most expensive way" crowd.

I've been called all kinds of names (backward, stupid, neaderthal, afraid) because I don't want DCC or sound and speak up in favor of DC (even though I was installing the first industrial programable controllers while many of these guys where still in grade school).

And I've been told my Kadee trucks with Intermountain wheel sets simply can't work dispite the fact that I have hundreds of freight cars that work fine with them.

So, respect and balance are due on both sides, and your post certainly was that. Thank you again for your orginal thoughts and your reply to me.

Sheldon

[Marc_Magnus]

Hi from Belgium,

Even I model in Nscale I use only MT/Kadee couplers body mounted on all my freight cars.

Atlas is offering his freight cars with, I beleive Mc Henry couplers,but  they are'nt as smooth as the MT coupler and second they don't couple or uncouple as easily as MT couplers.

On most front of my steam power I mount Zscale 905  Mt coupler because they are easier to mount on steam front deck. They work very well with Nscale MT couplers if they are at corret height.

So as MT advice, Kadee and MT coupler (the same manufacturer at the origin) are far the Cadillac of the coupler.

Marc

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

davidmbedard

 Oh God...where is my shovel?

Sheldon, #58s work just fine if you have good trackwork.  Heck, at our FreeMo meets, we run 100+ coal trains with #58s installed on every car with narry a disconnect.

Furthermore, Sergent couplers have a greater friction area in the knuckle....hence they resist disconnects more than the oversized #5s.  

If you are really concerned with disconnects, the a small amount of bullfrog snot on the inside of the knuckle will fight vertical displacements during running.

Sergents are not for everyone, especially not for Sheldon.  However, they ARE more realistic than anything thay Kadee has ever produced or will ever produce.  As someone who is striving for realistic operations, I cannot just glance over my coupler choice or my control choice.

David B

David, I said NOTHING about #58's disconnecting under any circumstance and have no problem with Sergents for those who want that level of detail and involement with coupling and uncoupling.

You conveniently forgot my very positive and supportive comments when you posted your testing of the sergent coupler.

You, because of our past, are applying other comments from other posters in this thread to me and trying to twist my words.

MY ONLY COMMENT ABOUT SEMI SCALE COUPLERS IS ABOUT AUTOMATIC COUPLING GATHERING RANGE (side to side alignement when approaching each other) - not a word about their reliablity in staying coupled or problems with vertical alignment - that was someone else. Re read the thread.

I don't personally use #58's for two reasons, with NMRA track and wheel standards, combined with side play in trucks from various manufacturers, there is a much greater chance of the couplers not being enough in line to couple automaticly.

AND, I do not care for how they interact with the regular head coupler, they don't couple as easily as either head does with its own kind, AND I have no intention of replacing all the couplers on 400 pieces of rolling stock, even now that Kadee does make enough different shanks to accomplish that, which where not available until very recently.

AND, I'm sure you don't have any problems with #58"s on EVERY car, but I'm not the only person on this forum with the opinion that the different head sizes and different brands don't play well together.

So, as explained before, I "get" all this new stuff, and am quite happy to stay with what I have. But I quess if you don't already have 400 freight cars its easy to make the choice to go with the "latest and greatest" when you do buy a few.

Sheldon

[jasperofzeal]

Scarpia

There is a lot of resistance to the Sergents from folks. Some of them are legitimate concerns...

To say "resistance" is to imply that Sergent coupler users are trying to convert Kadee users to switch over.  I have started to convert my equipment to Sergents, not because someone told me to, but because I just like how the couplers look and operate.  A lot of folks get defensive when sergent coupler threads come up and they give their reasons, legitimate as they may be, as to why they won't convert.  My opinion on that is that nobody is telling them to convert from Kadee or whatever, so they should just relax about it and take the info with a grain of salt.