The locos I'm most curious about are:
Athearn Genesis Big Boy, Challenger
Blueline Heavy Mikado
Blueline AC4/5 Cab Forward
Bachmann SPECTRUM Russian Decapod
Consolidated 2-8-0
Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-8-2.
I may bump this thread up the line from time to time. (My curves are 30" radius). All of these locomotives are presumed to be used with traction tired drivers on such steep grades.
Interested in who double heads or pushes with what combinations too. Thanks very much for participating in this little survey.
Please confine all posts to specific on your or your club layout's performance rather than heated debates concerning the insanity of 4% grades. Thanks!
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Hi,
Ok, to be honest I do not have any of the mentioned locomotives or grades. As a young kid I used to have a Marklin layout with 4 percent grades, all the European locomotives had traction tires on them. They easily pulled up 15 car freight trains up the 4% grades. The locomotives used were the Marklin Mikado, Decapod and their Articulate.
My current layout is all Diesel, ie Atlas, Kato, P2K and Athearn. There is also one electric six axle locomotive from Roco. The Helix on the layout on the outer loop has a 30 inch radius and a grade of 2.2%. I use one six axle diesel locomotive without traction tires for up to 12 freight cars. So to pull a 36 car freight up the helix it requires a minimum of 3 big diesels. My six axle Roco locomotive will pull that same 36 car freight train up the helix by itself. BUT it gets quite warm to the touch very fast. The point being that when pulling long trains over steep grades it is easy to burn items out due to the increased current draw producing extra heat. Also it seems that the electric motors do not get bigger when the locomotive model is larger. Ie a SD90 mac has the same electric motor as a GP35.
Hope it helps
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
While my layout is meant to be operated as a point-to-point line, I have a run-through track under my staging yards that's a short (about 7') 4% grade - most of it is straight except for a short bit at the bottom end, which is part of a 30" radius curve. There's another 30" radius curve (in the opposite direction) about a foot beyond the top of the hill, so longer trains will be at least partially on a curve.
I selected a train at random from the layout and added various cars to it for the test runs. All locos pulled the same cars, to their capacity, with excess cars removed from the rear of the train as required. Cars were a mix of Accurail, Train Miniature, Intermountain, Branchline, Bowser, and Athearn, with all but three equipped with their original plastic wheels.
I don't have most of the locos which you listed, but here are my results (none of the locos have traction tires and "modified" means that the loco has had weight added to it):
Proto2000 USRA 0-8-0 (modified) - 10 cars
Athearn USRA 2-8-2 - 10 cars
Athearn USRA 2-8-2 (modified) -15 cars
Bachmann USRA (Light) 4-8-2 (modified) - 19 cars
Bachmann Consolidation (modified) 19 cars
I generally run trains of about 12 cars, and not usually on the run-through track, so all locos will pull what they're required to move. I do doublehead for heavy trains (a tri-weekly coal train at 100oz.), and will employ pushers if necessary. Control is DC with walk-around throttles.
EDIT: I just tried a pair of Bachmann 2-8-0s on a 40 car train, and while they handled the train alright, the shortness of the grade obviously contributed to that success. On the other hand, as the locos rounded that first curve, they were headed east while the majority of the train was still moving westward. After the head-end reached the top of the grade, the locos were travelling northbound, with the majority of the train heading east, with the rear of the drag still going west.
If you need to move long trains up that grade, you might have more success by spacing the power throughout the train - I used four modified Athearn Mikes to move a 71 car train up a long (45') 2.5% grade that included two horseshoe curves. With one loco on the head-end, followed by 18 cars, then another loco, and another 18 cars, and so on, the trip was slow but uneventful - fortunately, as the drop to the concrete floor was almost 5' at the top of the grade.
Wayne
The railroad - 4% ruling grade, reduced to 3.5% on the 350mm radius curves (which include a couple of single-turn helices, one of about 520 degrees and one of about 330 degrees.)
The trains - a four-wheel diesel railbus, mixed trains with one short coach and two or three 4-wheel wagons, coal trains with up to six single-bay hopper cars interspersed with four-wheelers, unit coal trains with six articulated hopper cars and two hopper-brakes.
The locomotives:
As you can tell, this is a far different kind of operation, based on very different givens and druthers. Think Little Train of the Caipira, not N&W.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Capt. GrimekBlueline Heavy Mikado
Captain, mine is a BLI Heavy Mike and with out traction tires it will pull 15 coal cars up 4% grade to the mine with no problems. There is a 18 inch radii he climbs.
Capt. GrimekAthearn Genesis Big Boy, Challenger
If you gave me a Genesis Big Boy for free, I would take it, I might give you $50.00 for it new in the box but that is it. I had 2 of them and POS come to mind. Both went to the Athearn scrap yard IE refund. I have a PCM Big Boy that has pulled 70 cars up a 1.5 percent grade. So it should handle 25 cars. PCM cost a lot, so see if you can find a Blue Line version.
Best drag engine I have is a PCM Y6-b. It is what all steam engines should be! I have yet to have it stop pulling no matter how many cars it was dragging. It has pulled 80 cars up a 1.5 grade, went I added 20 to make 100 engine did fine, cars on the other hand fell over in a 26 inch turn going up hill. Again because of cost look at the Blue Line version. If you can afford a PCM, jump on it. All other steam engines pale in compression.
Capt. GrimekBachmann Spectrum 2-8-8-2.
One of the folks here as one, think it is Yankee Flyer. It has not been very happy with his last time I seen a post about it. Seems it does not drag much in the way of freight.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
In many ways the best way for you to get the answer is to build a test grade and test your engines. If you are looking to buy any of those you might just have to go to the MR test reviews for some basic information. Reason I say that is no one lays track the same, the transitions from level to grade will vary, curve radius and degrees of curvature will vary, rolling tendencies of the cars will vary based on lube-metal or plastic wheels-quality of the trucks- dirt build up-etc. So basically if one guy can get ten cars up a 4% grade you might be able to do 8 or you may be able to get 12 up the hill. If 12 you will be pleased. If 8 you will probably jump to the conclusion like most of us that you have a bad engine when in reality you are comparing apples and oranges.
doctorwayne, Holly Crap! Yours are one of the most realistic MR pix I've ever seen. The white background makes it look like an overexposed skies. Really, really nice! How did you apply weed so nicely between the rail - it looks very realistic!
I've run the Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 up and down the 4% grades (both on a 22" radius curve) on my test layout with 10 40' cars with some slippage; 8 no problem. I have two of these locomotives, and can state it's not specific to the single model.
While not on your list, the Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0 can only handle 4 cars, and that's slipping a lot.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
Our local club has a nice steep hill, only 2.5% but with an S curve in the middle of the hilll. We run loaded coal trains with the hoppers totaly full using Black Beauty sand blasting sand. Normal power is 4 Atlas/Kato Alco RS3's or GP7's. When we run steam, we run a Bowser Challenger class steam engine on the head end and an old Bowser cast brass boilered 4-8-2 Mountain on the rear shoving. This is with 16 loaded 4 bay hoppers. All the hoppers are weighted to NMRA specs when empty. The Challenger can almost get the train up the hill, usualy stalls in the upper part of the S curve. Any steam engine can go up a 4% grade, just going to vary how much it can pull behind it. If you stall on the hill, you do what any real railroad would do, back down and you double the hill, leaving part of the train at the bottom and take up what you can, set it out in a siding and go back for the rest. I wouldnt trust some of the Bachmann stuff on steep grades, they use a toothed belt drive and I have seen to many of those fail. If you going to have steep hills, I would stick with diecast, or weighted brass steam engines with good gear boxes and large motors. My PFM/United NKP 2-8-4 has no problems with 14 passenger coaches up that same hill at club. My 2 PFM/United SRR 4-6-2's also pull well and could actualy stand to have more weight added. Good Luck Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
My friend's layout will have a 9 foot 4% grade so it's definitely going to give him some parameters to expect. (We both own the locomotives I listed above but neither of us has the track laid on the grades yet to test them.)
Soon, for me though...
My grades are about 3%, a bit more in a couple of little short bumps along them. My big power are, in order of competency:
Metal PCM Y6b Mallet (woof!)
Metal Lionel UP Challenger sharing second place with the amazing BLI Paragon Pennsy J1 2-10-4
Rivarossi H-8 Allegheny
BLI Pennsy T1 Duplex sharing fourth place with the BLI Hybrid 2-10-2
Note: the engines listed in second to fourth places are just a couple of cars apart, so they're all good haulers
My lightest heavy hauler, and somewhat of a disappointment as a result, is the BLI NYC S1b Niagara. The Duplex is a much better mover. I have actually resorted to using Bull Frog Snot on one axle on the Niagara, and it can now out-pull the Duplex by three heavyweight's worth.
So, to the OP, if you have a strong hankering for one particular loco, and it doesn't come with traction tires, and you are really heavily committed to using 4% grades, a really cheap solution, all of USD$25 (?) would be a bottle of Bull Frog Snot.
Something for you to consider.
-Crandell
its more the toothed pulleys they drive splitting like P2K gears. I would also worry about the belt becoming dried out like any rubberband /belt or getting a memory so the model runs with a lope after long periods of storage. Bachmann isnt well known for replacement parts, send it back you might get something totaly different, like a diesel or large steam engine! Being the local shops mechanic and getting to fix many different brands of models, one gets a real appreciation of what works well, what can be repaired or made to run better and what to avoid. You couldnt give me a Bachmann engine with a belt drive, period. I will due without and save till I can afford an older brass model, usualy PFM/United or Tenshodo if you like Great Northern stuff. My 1962 vintage PFM NKP Berkshire will run circles around most others in the pulling power dept, draws under 3/4 amp under a full load and slipping just a touch with the original DC70 Pittman motor. I am also not afraid to pick it up like some of this new stuff, the detailing is good enough for my taste, no so much that its fragile, not to little and look like an old Mantua that had nothing for details. You can buy an exact duplicate of my Berkshire from Caboose Hobbies for $250, it needs stripped and repainted, and the headlight fixed. I can point you to a painter that can take care of all that for under $80, and that includeds repainting it to proper NKP colors and probably weathering. My PFM Southern PS4 Pacific is costing me around $80 and its a multi color job, and its getting window glass, engine crew ect. I wouldnt worrry about burning up the motor in an older model, ie brass, Bowser or Mantua on steep grades, most will slip out first. Many can stand to have more weight added.
Thanks for the kind words, trainsBuddy. The background actually is blue, but, as you noted, is overexposed in most of my pictures. Here are a couple of views with a bluer sky:
Capt. GrimekWhat specifically did you not like about the Genesis Big Boy? Was it a poor puller?
Where do I start on that one? First one could not pull more than 30 cars! Finally traced the problem to the tender. Sitting on a test rack the tender would not roll till it was at a 22 percent. Sat there like it had the brakes on! Then there was the MRC decoder, kept resetting it self. At the time I was DCC on the B Line and DC on the A line. I finally ran it on DC only, if it pulled I would have lived with it.
Should have seen the look on my LHS owner when I brought in the test track and showed him how the tender would not roll.
Second one, going around left hand turns the pilot truck would do a wheelie?
Many said it was my poor track laying skills, same track is there today with no problem. I was working on the engine and getting it to track better. Then the MRC decoder started doing the same thing as the first one! Back it went to LHS for a refund. The BIG POS did the same thing on his well laid track.