LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
There was at least one, maybe 2 switchback layouts similar to this in the classic old Kalmbach book 101 Track Plans. I think they had a mining theme, and one was South American, but the switchback-on-little-more-than-a-shelf concept was there.
I am going to dig out my standard HO track and do some mockups on a piece of cardboard the size of my table and see if it will work. If not then I will look into a second table that is longer but not as deep for the logging layout. Cheers Mike
Check this one out. He is using a Riv Heisler. Test your equipment to find maximum grade, and remember, curves will needed to be factored in with the %.
http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=2167&forum_id=5
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I designed an On30 logging layout, might be of some ideas for an HO Layout, same track. Hope this helps a little
Have fun with your trains
climaxpwr Ok, let me run this idea by you folks. Scale is HO, theme is small logging operation. Power would be a PFM Hillcrest 25ton shay, either 40 foot logging flats from Bachmann or Kaydee logging skells, and the Kaydee logging bobber caboose. Normal train would be Shay, 3-4 logging cars and caboose. Using the same table as my current Marklin layout sits on, which is 33" deep by 55" long. At the front left corner would be a 2 track yard, single track engine house, tracks combine to single track just in front of the engine house. Track curves inward a bit then curves back toward the right corner to a dead end. In the middle of the inward curve is a right hand turnout that leads upgrade, roughly 4% up the toward the first switchback. There is enough tailspace on each switch back for the normal train consist listed above.... ...I want to keep the layout portable to take to shows. The grades should be no problem for the little shay, short stiff climbs that flatten out for the most part once I get to the tail track on each leg.....Any thoughts, suggestions ect. Am I nuts to try and squeeze this into my small layout space. Thanks in advance Mike __________________
Mike
Before you bother with track mockups, I strongly suggest you measure the length of your proposed engine and cars. My estimates are as follows:
Shay - 5" long
40ft log car - 6" long
30ft log car - 5" long
Kadee logging caboose - 2" long
4 car train with 40ft log cars, engine, and caboose - 31" long
3 car train with 30ft log cars, engine, and caboose - 22" long
2 car train with 30ft cars, engine, and caboose - 17" long, but now we're getting silly but practical.
Iain Rice suggests in one of his articles/books that the maximum train length for a shelf layout should be 1/4 to 1/3 the length of the shelf to look reasonable, and to be able to do switching. If you think about it, it makes sense. A train 1/3 the length of the shelf can only move 2 train lengths before it runs out of track. And really, a train length 1/3 the shelf length doesn't work for switchbacks because there will be no room for turnouts if a 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 configuration is used for the tails and the grade.
The next point is that the distance from the points to the clearance point between the diverging paths of a turnout is critical in small shelf layouts. Using #4 turnouts, I figure 8" for this distance as a minimum. This must be subtracted from available track lengths, especially with multiple switchbacks. Wye turnouts are shorter; curved turnouts with both paths curving the same direction are longer. Knowing this distance for your track is important for planning.
Grade transitions are another issue. My rule of thumb is that you need at least one longest car length of transition for each 3% of grade - and then you better mock this up to ensure your couplers don't under- or over-ride on this sharp a transition, and that your Shay is flexible enough to handle it, too. This means that for a 6% grade you need 12" of transition at both ends of the grade. For a switchback with say 36" between the clearance points of the turnouts at either end, you need 2 12" transitions, and will have only 12" of actual 6%. Total rise for the 36" would be about 1.5" - 3/8" for each transition, and 3/4" for the 6% portion.
Your Shay's minimum radius is probably limited by the telescoping line shafts - how much they can compress and stretch before they hit the stops or pull apart. The minimum radius will probably be less for one direction of turn than the other. In any case, I'm guessing minimum radius is 15". Allowing 2" of clearance from the shelf edge to track centerline, using a 90 degree 15" radius for the tail track takes 17" of length for 23" of tail track length. That's about the best gain you can possibly have with "creative curvature".
Bottom line - 55" is really too short for the proposed logging display layout. If you go to Carl Arendt's micro-layout site and study the Gum Stump and Snowshoe, that will give you the art of the possible for a switchback layout. The original GS&S used 15" tails on the switchbacks, and still needed 72" of shelf length. My version of the GS&S in HOn3 has 20.5" tails on a 16" x 96" shelf. The tails give me a 3 car train with engine (no caboose unless I use something as small as the Kadee and keep car length to 26-28 scale ft.) Grades peak out at close to 8% to give the necessary rise with adequate level space for the turnouts. In your case, I would thing a 2 section portable layout 8-12 ft long would work quite well, and allow you to do what you want (with 3-4 car trains, depending on length). If the wider depth is available, you can gain a little by curving the tail tracks.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Now I like that 3x6 foot switch back layout, that is what I have in mind, just need to expand my layout size a tad. I think I might be able to do that along the front wall and leave the Marklin layout where it is. I saved all the pics of his layout, not sure if I would go that high up, but I might. Would love to know what he is cutting the pink foam with? Razor saw of some kind? I know they make hot wire cutters, but it doenst look like that is what he used. Mike
climaxpwrWould love to know what he is cutting the pink foam with? Razor saw of some kind? I know they make hot wire cutters, but it doenst look like that is what he used. Mike
Sign up and ask him, friendly folks over there, I'm sure he would be happy to answer your questions.
Keep us posted.
Mike, Since you're asking for input, have you asked yourself the following questions?
Other than running empties up the hill and loaded log cars down the hill, what else are you showing? You mention a small yard at the bottom, but what is there in reality or implication? Where are the logs going to? Where is the sawmill? Is there a connection with an outside RR line for supplies and for outbound product?
Quality detailing of a mountainous logging line can be a delightful project, and there is plenty of work to do to make that look good (fallen trees, scrap logs and brush where the loggers have already been, lots of stumps, the complexities of the log loading scene at the top). Operationally, though, it seems that just having trips up and down the mountain might be limiting.
Also, 33" deep is too deep for effective detailing from one side, so hopefully access is available from the "back" as well.
Bill