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August 2008 - 2-6-0 kitbash article

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August 2008 - 2-6-0 kitbash article
Posted by rogertra on Friday, July 11, 2008 10:46 PM

Useful article in the August MR but they failed to mention if the IHC 2-6-0 can run on code 70 rail.  Has this model be upgraded to RP25 wheels or does it still have steam roller wheels suitable for only code 100 rail?

 

 

Cheers

Roger T.

Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com

For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/

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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, July 11, 2008 11:27 PM

I haven't seen the article, but it's not that difficult to turn down the flanges.  I did mine without removing them from the loco, after using masking tape to protect the mechanism.  Clip some power leads to the motor, then, with the motor running at about half throttle, use the face of a cut-off disk in your Dremel tool, running at high speed, to turn down the flanges.  Use very light pressure, to avoid shattering the disk, and alternate between drivers, so as to avoid overheating the tires, which might deform the plastic driver centres.  Do not use the edge of the disk, as it can rapidly damage the flange.  Of course, be sure to wear safety glasses when doing this procedure.

Wayne 

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Posted by SteamFreak on Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:55 AM
The new Moguls have blackened RP25 wheels. My favorite parts guy at my local train show was selling the whole revised chassis with the motor for $15 at the June show.
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Posted by andrechapelon on Saturday, July 12, 2008 10:51 AM
 rogertra wrote:

Useful article in the August MR but they failed to mention if the IHC 2-6-0 can run on code 70 rail.  Has this model be upgraded to RP25 wheels or does it still have steam roller wheels suitable for only code 100 rail?

Just for general info, the IHC 2-6-0 is based on the SP M-4 class ( ilt by Cooke between 1899 and 1901 if memory serves) They're actually pretty close in dimension to the New Haven K-1b and the B&M B-15 as well other late 19th/early 20th century moguls like this one: http://www.cashgroth.com/ho/mstl304.html

The one real glaring discrepancy for SP fans is the oversized tender, originally used by Pemco to house the drive. The tender could probably be shortened similarly to the way Pryke did it in the article to create something that more closely resembles the 52R-1 (I believe) SP tender. Alternatively, SP modelers could use the 7000 gallon Vanderbilt tender from the old MDC Harriman locos (the Spectrum "medium" is too large for this class of engine).  With a little work (i.e. scratchbuilt straight boiler and MDC "Harriman" cab), you could come pretty close to SP's M-6, M-8 and M-9 moguls. With those, the Spectrum tender would be appropriate as would the MDC 7000 gal tender.

I don't know what the driving wheelbase is on the Athearn 4-4-0, but it looks like it might be useable (with 73" drivers from Bowser) to create an SP E-23 4-4-0 as they used the same boilers. However, the pilot would have to be lowered a bit. The IHC 4-4-0 mechanism doesn't even come close.

Andre

 

 

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Posted by andrechapelon on Saturday, July 12, 2008 12:17 PM

Incidentally, there's an NERS brass NYNH&H K1b 2-6-0 for sale right now on EBay. Take a look and see how close John Pryke with his kitbash. http://tinyurl.com/6pqj42

 

From the looks of it, the kitbash is pretty close, not to mention being cheaper than a brass engine.

Andre

My wife tells me that I'm beyond help. I think what she's actually trying to say is that assistance is futile.

 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, July 12, 2008 12:34 PM
 andrechapelon wrote:

Just for general info, the IHC 2-6-0 is based on the SP M-4 class ( ilt by Cooke between 1899 and 1901 if memory serves) They're actually pretty close in dimension to the New Haven K-1b and the B&M B-15 ....

Here's an ex-B&M B-15, modified slightly for my free-lance road.

Future plans include a more modern cab and piston valves, and probably a clear-vision tender.

Wayne 

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Posted by markpierce on Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:05 PM
 andrechapelon wrote:

Just for general info, the IHC 2-6-0 is based on the SP M-4 class ( ilt by Cooke between 1899 and 1901 if memory serves) ....

The one real glaring discrepancy for SP fans is the oversized tender, originally used by Pemco to house the drive. The tender could probably be shortened similarly to the way Pryke did it in the article to create something that more closely resembles the 52R-1 (I believe) SP tender. Alternatively, SP modelers could use the 7000 gallon Vanderbilt tender from the old MDC Harriman locos (the Spectrum "medium" is too large for this class of engine).  With a little work (i.e. scratchbuilt straight boiler and MDC "Harriman" cab), you could come pretty close to SP's M-6, M-8 and M-9 moguls. With those, the Spectrum tender would be appropriate as would the MDC 7000 gal tender.

Andre

Andre, your statement that a medium-sized Vanderbilt tender would be inappropiate for an M-4 is a risky conclusion given the SP proclivity for swapping tenders among locomotives.  However, I have no evidence in hand to say you are incorrect.  Most pictures I have of M-4s show them towing smallish rectangular tenders with tall, long oil bunkers, or short Vandys.  However, I have two photos of whaleback tenders behind M-4s.  I assume the whalebacks came from the early cab-forward Mallets.  Those whalebacks overwhelm the locos.  I do have photos of M-6s, built the year (1901) after the M-4s but 14% heavier, sporting medium-length Vandys.  Obviously, the choice of era would impact the appropriateness of a particular tender.  (Photos referenced here are in Duane Karam, Jr.'s SP 2-6-0 Pictorial.)

Mark

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Posted by andrechapelon on Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:35 PM
Andre, your statement that a medium-sized Vanderbilt tender would be inappropiate for an M-4 is a risky conclusion given the SP proclivity for swapping tenders among locomotives.  However, I have no evidence in hand to say you are incorrect.  Most pictures I have of M-4s show them towing smallish rectangular tenders with tall, long oil bunkers, or short Vandys.  However, I have two photos of whaleback tenders behind M-4s.  I assume the whalebacks came from the early cab-forward Mallets.  Those whalebacks overwhelm the locos.  I do have photos of M-6s, built the year (1901) after the M-4s but 14% heavier, sporting medium-length Vandys.  Obviously, the choice of era would impact the appropriateness of a particular tender.  (Photos referenced here are in Duane Karam, Jr.'s SP 2-6-0 Pictorial.)

Mark

I made that caveat about the M-4's based on photos I'd seen (mostly from "A Century Of Southern Pacific Steam Locomotives). It's not entirely out of the question that M-4's got bigger Vanderbilts given SP's proclivity to change tenders more often than engine crews changed their underwear, just that I've never seen pictures of larger Vandies behind the M-4's. The M-4's were rapidly outclassed as first line power early in the 20th Century by the Harriman Standard locos. It would make sense that they were rather rapidly relegated to local service early on, negating the need for higher capacity tenders.

As for the whalebacks, IIRC they came in several different sizes ranging from 7300 gallons to 12,000 gallons in water capacity. I don't have the particular pictorial mentioned, so I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to the size of the tender without seeing the picture. I have seen pictures of M-6's with what look to be tenders of the 98SC variety.

M-4 #1654 is pictured here with one of the 70C Vandies: http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-01/1654_sp-steam-m04-gene_deimling.jpg 

From a purely esthetic view, that's a much prettier engine than it would be with a larger tender.

M-6 with a "whaleback": http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-01/1725_sp-steam-m06-gene_deimling.jpg I could be wrong, but I think that's a 73SC-1 tender.

M-6 with a 10,000 gallon Vandy (100C something or other) http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-01/1758_sp-steam-m06-byron_bostwick.jpg

Andre

My wife tells me that I'm beyond help. I think what she's actually trying to say is that assistance is futile.

 

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Posted by markpierce on Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:58 PM
 andrechapelon wrote:

As for the whalebacks, IIRC they came in several different sizes ranging from 7300 gallons to 12,000 gallons in water capacity. I don't have the particular pictorial mentioned, so I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to the size of the tender without seeing the picture. I have seen pictures of M-6's with what look to be tenders of the 98SC variety.

M-6 with a "whaleback": http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-01/1725_sp-steam-m06-gene_deimling.jpg I could be wrong, but I think that's a 73SC-1 tender.

Thanks, Andre,

The two whalebacked M-4s I referred to each had different sizes of whalebacks.  Unfortunately, I don't have information on their classification.  Both are larger than the whaleback in the above which is a "squashed" variant.  "My" picture of M-4 1644 taken in November 1946 at Los Angeles shows a "normal-looking" whaleback tender at least as tall the the loco's boiler.  Picture of M-4 1685 taken in June 1953 at Roseville has a very large whaleback where the fuel section is of slightly larger diameter than the water section and is at least as tall as the cab roof.

Mark

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Posted by andrechapelon on Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:32 AM

Thanks, Andre,

The two whalebacked M-4s I referred to each had different sizes of whalebacks.  Unfortunately, I don't have information on their classification.  Both are larger than the whaleback in the above which is a "squashed" variant.  "My" picture of M-4 1644 taken in November 1946 at Los Angeles shows a "normal-looking" whaleback tender at least as tall the the loco's boiler.  Picture of M-4 1685 taken in June 1953 at Roseville has a very large whaleback where the fuel section is of slightly larger diameter than the water section and is at least as tall as the cab roof.

Mark

There may have been more variants, but the whalebacks I remember are the 73SC-1, 98SC-1 and the 120SC-1. IIRC, it was the 120SC type that had the oil bunker of a larger diameter than the water cistern. I'm not sure, but that may have been a result of rebuilding the oil bunker to increase capacity. Some of the 73SC's were originally built for SP's Vauclain compound A-1 4-4-2's from what I remember. Unfortunately, my copy of Arnold Menke's compilation of SP tender diagrams is back in California, so I'm limited to memory. As I recall, some, if not all of the B-1 2-8-4's purchased second hand from the B&M got 120SC tenders when they were converted to oil.

For those of you who are not SP fans, SP's tender classification was quite simple. The numbers indicated water capacity in the nearest 100's of gallons, the letters indicated whether the tender was rectangular, cylindrical or semi-cylindrical ("whaleback") and the number after the dash indicated the series. For example, a 160C-3 tender was of 16,000 gallon capacity, cylindrical , third series. Spectrum's "Hicken" (misnomer) is an example of a 160C-x tender. Their  "medium" Vanderbilt appears to me to be a 9,000 gallon tender (90C-x)  as the 10,000 gallon Vandies were a bit longer.  The tender that comes behind the IHC 2-6-0 is a 52R-x tender (5200 gallon Rectangular) that was lengthened by Pemco to accommodate the tender drive. Model Die Casting's short Vandy is a 70C (7000 gallon) tender.

SP tenders are an interesting study in and of themelves. They had quite a variety, not only those built new for SP, but also the tenders which came with second hand engines.

Andre

My wife tells me that I'm beyond help. I think what she's actually trying to say is that assistance is futile.

 

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Posted by jguess733 on Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:09 PM
It's funny that you guys are talking about SP tenders, I just ordered Common Standard Diagrams of Tenders from the SP historical and Technical Society. I've been thinking about kitbashing/scratching a whale back tender for some time but haven't been able to figure the dimensions. Actually I ran across that book completely by accident while googleing something else.

Jason

Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale

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Posted by markpierce on Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:31 PM

 jguess733 wrote:
It's funny that you guys are talking about SP tenders, I just ordered Common Standard Diagrams of Tenders from the SP historical and Technical Society. I've been thinking about kitbashing/scratching a whale back tender for some time but haven't been able to figure the dimensions. Actually I ran across that book completely by accident while googleing something else.

I mailed my order for the book yesterday.

Mark

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Posted by markpierce on Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:35 PM
 andrechapelon wrote:

There may have been more variants, but the whalebacks I remember are the 73SC-1, 98SC-1 and the 120SC-1. IIRC, it was the 120SC type that had the oil bunker of a larger diameter than the water cistern. I'm not sure, but that may have been a result of rebuilding the oil bunker to increase capacity. Some of the 73SC's were originally built for SP's Vauclain compound A-1 4-4-2's from what I remember. Unfortunately, my copy of Arnold Menke's compilation of SP tender diagrams is back in California, so I'm limited to memory. As I recall, some, if not all of the B-1 2-8-4's purchased second hand from the B&M got 120SC tenders when they were converted to oil.

For those of you who are not SP fans, SP's tender classification was quite simple. The numbers indicated water capacity in the nearest 100's of gallons, the letters indicated whether the tender was rectangular, cylindrical or semi-cylindrical ("whaleback") and the number after the dash indicated the series. For example, a 160C-3 tender was of 16,000 gallon capacity, cylindrical , third series. Spectrum's "Hicken" (misnomer) is an example of a 160C-x tender. Their  "medium" Vanderbilt appears to me to be a 9,000 gallon tender (90C-x)  as the 10,000 gallon Vandies were a bit longer.  The tender that comes behind the IHC 2-6-0 is a 52R-x tender (5200 gallon Rectangular) that was lengthened by Pemco to accommodate the tender drive. Model Die Casting's short Vandy is a 70C (7000 gallon) tender.

Andre

The feedback I got from another forum was that the M-4s pictured had 73-SC-? and 120-SC-? whaleback tenders. 

Mark

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Posted by markpierce on Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:43 PM

I have two M-6 models.  One has a 90-R-? (rectangular) tender and the other a 100-C-? (Vanderbilt).

Mark

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Posted by jguess733 on Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:57 PM
I have the IHC model. When I get down with my experiment to scratch build a T&P Muley Caboose, I'm going to try a whaleback tender for it my M-4.


Jason

Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale

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Posted by andrechapelon on Sunday, July 13, 2008 4:05 PM

 jguess733 wrote:
It's funny that you guys are talking about SP tenders, I just ordered Common Standard Diagrams of Tenders from the SP historical and Technical Society. I've been thinking about kitbashing/scratching a whale back tender for some time but haven't been able to figure the dimensions. Actually I ran across that book completely by accident while googleing something else.

I'm not sure how much the book will help you. It contains line drawings with general dimensions, but that's all. You're going to need some good photos for the rest.  PASmith, who posts on a more or less regular basis created a whaleback for his kitbashed Mantua 4-8-0 using the chassis of the IHC 2-6-0 tender.

Here's a shot of TW-8 equipped with what looks to me like a 73SC series tender: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2921.JPG

And another: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2921A.JPG

2-8-0 #2534 with a larger whaleback: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2534.JPG

2585: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2585Z2.JPG

Detail of front end of 120SC tender on MK-4 3222: http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-02/3222_sp-steam-mk04-gene_deimling.jpg

Mogul #1725: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP1725.JPG

Mogul #1765 still exists with its whaleback tender at Lomita, CA. http://www.steamlocomotive.com/losangeles/sp1765.jpg

Location: http://lomita-rr.org/

Andre

 

Andre

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Posted by PASMITH on Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:54 PM
 andrechapelon wrote:

 jguess733 wrote:
It's funny that you guys are talking about SP tenders, I just ordered Common Standard Diagrams of Tenders from the SP historical and Technical Society. I've been thinking about kitbashing/scratching a whale back tender for some time but haven't been able to figure the dimensions. Actually I ran across that book completely by accident while googleing something else.

I'm not sure how much the book will help you. It contains line drawings with general dimensions, but that's all. You're going to need some good photos for the rest.  PASmith, who posts on a more or less regular basis created a whaleback for his kitbashed Mantua 4-8-0 using the chassis of the IHC 2-6-0 tender.

Here's a shot of TW-8 equipped with what looks to me like a 73SC series tender: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2921.JPG

And another: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2921A.JPG

2-8-0 #2534 with a larger whaleback: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2534.JPG

2585: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2585Z2.JPG

Detail of front end of 120SC tender on MK-4 3222: http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-02/3222_sp-steam-mk04-gene_deimling.jpg

Mogul #1725: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP1725.JPG

Mogul #1765 still exists with its whaleback tender at Lomita, CA. http://www.steamlocomotive.com/losangeles/sp1765.jpg

Location: http://lomita-rr.org/

Andre

 

Andre



I may not have done enough due diligence on the Whaleback that I recently built but you have to stop researching somewhere and start building. My intention was to model SP 2947 as it appeared in 1909. The reason why I needed to build this specific prototype and year is another story. Hear is a picture of 2947 as photographed at Klamath Falls OR probably about 1913. ( Signor, Southern Pacific's Shasta Division" page 51 and also appearing in Jack Bowden's book Railroad Logging in the Klamath County.) Jack sent me the copy of this photograph.



The biggest problem for me was the arrangement of the handrails and walkway(s) on top of the tender. Based on the photo, I made a bold assumption that contrary to most of the data I had, There were no walkways on top of this specific tender, only handrails. The assumption that SP built some Whalebacks with this configuration in the period between 1900 and 1911 is based on the 1904 photo on page 228 of A Century of Southern Pacific Steam by Dunscomb and a photo on page 123 of Signor's book Southern Pacific's Shasta Division. Since I had no plans of these early Whalebacks I interpolated a lot of data from many photographs and plans including those found on the Chapter "Tenders" pages 277-307 in the book Cab Forward by Robert Church. This is how I arrived at an approximation of the dimensions of the Whaleback (Estimated to have a 7,300 gal water tank) in the photo of 2947.

As "Andre" noted, I started with the tender frame of an IHC 2-6-0 and scratch built the tank using styrene plastic. I made the interior bulkheads that form the tank interior frame and the outer tank wrapper based on the only article I could find regarding the building of Whalebacks published in MR. It was an article on how to build a G scale cab forward from styrene. I believe it was in the September 1987 issue. After I applied the first styrene wrapper over the bulkheads, I embossed rivets by hand on a piece of thin styrene with a small steel awl using a piece of card stock as a template. ( This took some practice until I mastered the technique.) I then glued the thin piece of embossed styrene over the original wrapper using a water based contact cement so as not to distort or melt the thin styrene sheet embossed with the rivets. I used other card stock templates to drill the holes for the handrails.

If anyone can come up with usable plans for these early 1900's SP Whalebacks, please let me know.

Peter Smith, Memphis








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Posted by jguess733 on Sunday, July 13, 2008 9:28 PM
Peter, incredible work.

Jason

Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale

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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, July 14, 2008 7:08 AM

 PASMITH wrote:


I may not have done enough due diligence on the Whaleback that I recently built but you have to stop researching somewhere and start building.

My sentiments exactly. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

Very nice work, Peter, not only on the tender, but the loco, too.

Wayne 

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