First of all, I've had it. Although, I think I have a well-designed plan for a 4x8, my decision to go with EZ track has finally gotten the better of me. I look at what I have to do to make it what I want and basically I have to re-frame the structure. Re-wire it. Pull the bridge and re-landscape for a wooden trestle. That and monkey together the track-work or replace it. All of the work will be pointless if I can't get the danged track-work running as smoothly as it was when I first laid it.
So I'm ready to scrap the Rock Ridge and Train City and move on.
So here's the dilemma. I have the room to build a basement empire. So what period do I pick? I like the 1880's fantasy that I have created. There is no location of the Rock Ridge and Train City. It is kinda sorta in the California Central Valley foothills but to my knowledge, there is no area anywhere striated red rock and lush oak forests collide in the Southern Pacific Empire. But I can live with that. It allows me a certain whimsy that I was not really going to express in the Redwood Empire.
But I really like the horse-drawn wagons and riders. I like the idea of sound on the layout, but that limits me to MDC products. In fact, my two best runners are my silent MDC 2-6-0's. Now they have out the sound 4-4-0's (but for some reason decided that SP wasn't worth the effort.) And they are coming out with an SP 2-6-0 sound engines in May.
Plus I have over 100 pieces of rolling stock with metal wheels and Kadees. And buildings, and figures and wagons. And I really like the mini old-time steam. And as I said before, the Old West fantasy-my other hobby is Cowboy Action Shooting. I've figured out how to model this era.
On the other hand, I've been planning the Redwood Empire for about a year and a half. The original plan called for finishing the Rock Ridge and Train City so I could run trains while I built the Redwood Empire. Then I would build the first two phases of the Redwood Empire dismantling the small layout when I finished the first two phases. The first two phases are point to point, and I've determined I need at least some point of continuous running.
If I went this route, I'd basically be starting over with motive power. Sure I have a Bachman Shay, and my son's 2-8-0 is only ten years too modern for this time period (as opposed to 40 for the other period.) But the main motive power for the California Western during this period was 2-6-2 side tankers. They were Baldwin's so I can't bash them off of the Proto 0-6-0, so my best choices now are either the Mantua kit or the Bachman Plus (with smoke.) I would basically be building every engine-re-motoring and bashing the exterior, and fitting a sound decoder (plenty of room in the tanks, I hope.)
This would be very time consuming-but I had planned to have the working RR&TC to take off the edge.
Once I got to Phase 3, where I join with the NWP at the Willits yard, I have a lot more leeway. I can use the Bachman 4-4-0's and the 4-6-0's. The 4-6-0's were pretty widely used by the NWP at that time. And I would have continuous running.
Some of the buildings and rolling stock would work fine. And pretty much all the craftsman kits will work in either time period. But many of the buildings and all of the figures won't really work. There is also a shortage of vehicles in the 1917 era. Jordon makes a 1914 convertible and a fire truck. That's all I know of.
The upside is seeing these little side tankers running through a forest of 30-36 inch redwoods would be spectacular and something I've dreamed about creating. Just about every aspect of this project will be scratch building and kit bashing from the trees to the saw mill to the logging camps to the cutting areas.
The path of least resistance is converting the whole basement to Old West. But ultimately, the Redwood empire would be the better layout operationally with a couple nice yards, an interchange and three staging yards. I was planning set up inviting people in for ops sessions.
There is a sort of compromise, in that I could build an Old West version of the Interchange and use douglas fir and ponderosa pines...
Donner Party of 12, your table is ready.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I'd love to help you, Chip, but I'm in the same boat (minus the big basement!). As you've no doubt read from my recent rantings (alliteration is cool!), I'm torn between the 1956 PRR I model and the Penn Central/Conrail/Amtrak of my youth. See, no matter what we pick, we win, so it's not all bad, right?
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I've had my mid-1960's layout since, well, the mid-1960's, although it has spent most of its life in boxes. I went out and bought a Proto 0-6-0, though, and for the last few months I factor in the "dual-era" option in all my thinking. Most of my structures could pass muster back to the early 1900's, so the only things really tying me to the 1960's are the trains and the vehicles.
My 5x12-foot layout is small enough that it's actually "completeable," and at the current rate pretty much all of the scenery will be done in another year or so. At this point, I'll need a project, since I've never been happy just "running trains" for very long. So, I'm planning to make one block of more modern buildings into a removeable section that I can replace with an older block, and then I'll start collecting Jordan cars, older-era rolling stock and steamers.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Dave Vollmer wrote: I'd love to help you, Chip, but I'm in the same boat (minus the big basement!). As you've no doubt read from my recent rantings (alliteration is cool!), I'm torn between the 1956 PRR I model and the Penn Central/Conrail/Amtrak of my youth. See, no matter what we pick, we win, so it's not all bad, right?
Actually your door layout inspired me. I think I'm going to get a door (or door sized sheet of plywood and build an N-unit--mostly a loop with mountains and the trees off the RR&TC. I have 10 pieces of flex and 4 turnouts. I have a coal mine, 2 factories and a house a freight station and a bridge. I have a LL Conrail GP-20 and Bachman Spectrum CSX Dash-8 and a bunch of cars mostly Atlas and Microtrains--6 coal cars and two NS box cars. I also have a bunch of Bachman junk cars that will hit the eBay. So just a little work converting the Rapidos on the engines and I have the makings of a small scenic coal drag layout. Eventually, I'll find an Atlas B&P GP-38 and go DCC.
Then I'll watch trains run while I design and build the basement.
Chip,
You're really not that far along as of yet to think that what you have now isn't worth the expansion. I would go to the time period around the 50's. That way, you can run steam along side first generation diesel if you like. The old west really didn't have a lot of staging yards and large yards unless you traveled to places like NYC or Chicago. (They were lucky if a town had a siding.) I think you will do well if you model the SP during a more modern time period of your choosing. Think of the possiblities....Cab forwards, Atlantics, Limas, Pacifics, G-4 Daylights, F-7's, E-7's, Geep 7 and 9's, Alco Pa's, trainmasters, RS-3's..... the list goes on for stuff you can model in the 50's...You can always sell your "older" stuff on e-bay or at a train show and begin collecting more modern equipment. Who says you can't have a hay wagon or two in a field during the 50's?
I've torn down 6 layouts over the years and rebuilt them and each time they got better and better. Maybe it's time for you to get away from the 4' x 8' wild west sectional track layout and build something a lot more complex with flex track and cork roadbed. It will be worth the effort in the long run you know. So what you have a few pieces of rolling stock that won't fit the time period. It can be improved on by leaps and bounds....( I wonder if an ankle goes good with ribs?)...chuck
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
Chuck,
I have plenty to choose from if I go with SP. There were yards at Sacramento, San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc. Just in the small are of the NWP I am planning in 1917, there were yards in Willits, Fort Bragg, and the half-way point Ukiah.
I like small steam, okay. I run big steam and diesels at the club.
I do not pretend to be able to resolve moral issues .... It seems to me a Wild West layout is a big challenge. If you really want to do it up right the rail should be very very small, the switches should be stub switches -- that means handlaid since none is available commercially that I know of -- not commercial ones with moving points. There does not seem to be a lot of variety in the available engines and cars. But it could be a real attention getting layout.
Dave Nelson
I know you're a student of late-Victorian (and just post) history. Study it REALLY hard and you'll come up with your answer......Deep South, west of the Mississippi River, circa 1920-1930.
You want the SP? Model the T&NO. Want small steam? Just about every branchline down South was running 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s and 4-6-0s into WWII. Want logging and shays? Well, the terrain isn't as rugged as the Sierras, but the South had more lumber (and more logging RR track) than California. There was a LOT of cypress and Southern Yellow Pine to haul out of the back country! Want "old westerny-looking" towns? What do you think just about every small town west of the Mississippi looked like before 1950? (dig through the Library of Congress' photos for confirmation!). Want wagons and riders? OX TEAMS lasted until almost 1950 in the deep south!
The Deep South was VERY backwards, up to about last Thursday. If you model 1940s Alabama, you're actually modeling 1912 Alabama (and to a certain extent 1860s Alabama) with a few modern doo-dads added here and there. So if you decide to model the Deep South just after Prohibition, you can accurately add a LOT of much older "stuff" onto your layout and not have it look incorrect (well, to anyone who knows social history anyway).
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
They were Baldwin's so I can't bash them off of the Proto 0-6-0, so my best choices now are either the Mantua kit or the Bachman Plus (with smoke.) I would basically be building every engine-re-motoring and bashing the exterior...
Welcome to my world! Nobody makes plastic models of the White Pass's diesels in HOn3 and if there were any made in brass, I haven't been able to find them. I'm currently kitbashing one from an old MRC C-420 and will power it with a new Atlas RSC4/5 (if I can narrow the wheels enough).
Anyhow, my suggestion would be go for the Redwood Empire, from what I've heard you say about it and what I've read on your website it sounds like it will be a truly impressive pike. And I wouldn't worry about not having continuous running. IMHO it is very over-rated. The last layout I had that had continuous running was the one my dad and I built in the mid-sixties!
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Chip, Athearn did the 4-4-0 in Santa Fe with an oil bunker in the tender. Strip off the lettering and re-letter it after adding SP train indicators. OTOH, I don't know if anyone makes decals that are appropriate for the era when the roadname was on the cab and the engine number on the tender. OTOH, until about 1929-1930, the NWP was owned jointly by the SP and ATSF so you might get away with leaving the thing lettered for ATSF.
Andre
Could you design a "back woods/backwards" setting in your larger Redwood them, a ride down memory lane? The Ozarks-r-us? Make the operations and loops pertain to your grand theme, and keep about 20 ft sq-ish in the ridges for folks who want to venture into historical villages/industries. They'd have their choice of entering Black Oak Holler using modern steam, or one of the old timers could chug out to the New World and gather some tourists for a ride back in time.
You can have both, but just get some trains running with some good track so that you can depressurize. You need it. No, really!
SpaceMouse wrote: But I really like the horse-drawn wagons and riders. I like the idea of sound on the layout, but that limits me to MDC products. In fact, my two best runners are my silent MDC 2-6-0's. Now they have out the sound 4-4-0's (but for some reason decided that SP wasn't worth the effort.) And they are coming out with an SP 2-6-0 sound engines in May. On the other hand, I've been planning the Redwood Empire for about a year and a half. If I went this route, I'd basically be starting over with motive power. Sure I have a Bachman Shay, and my son's 2-8-0 is only ten years too modern for this time period (as opposed to 40 for the other period.) But the main motive power for the California Western during this period was 2-6-2 side tankers. They were Baldwin's so I can't bash them off of the Proto 0-6-0, so my best choices now are either the Mantua kit or the Bachman Plus (with smoke.) I would basically be building every engine-re-motoring and bashing the exterior, and fitting a sound decoder (plenty of room in the tanks, I hope.) There is a sort of compromise, in that I could build an Old West version of the Interchange and use douglas fir and ponderosa pines...Donner Party of 12, your table is ready.
On the other hand, I've been planning the Redwood Empire for about a year and a half.
Now you understand why I model "turn-of-the-century" not specific years. I can use anything that would have existed from about 1890 to 1915 or so and it "fits". I don't worry about exact matches, only "flavor". My "best" engines are the P2k 0-6-0's with QSI sound. These exact engines did not exist in 1900; however 0-6-0's did. By using generic classes of engines and other items; my time period looks OK to almost anyone.
By having a fictional road name; I am not limited to trying to match a particular engine to the road. I buy unlettered loco's and rolling stock or re-badge as needed. This lets me run what is actually available in generic terms (0-6-0, 4-4-0, 2-6-2, 4-6-0, etc.)
Go for the scenery and time frame that you like and want; just do it with a fictional road name and enjoy the trip and venture. You can have a layout that is fun to build and operate; even if it is not an "exact copy" of some prior real life RR.
Model RR for me is fun and relaxing. The stress of trying to exactly copy something that existed 100 years ago does not fit that requirement (for me). Only you can decide which way is best for you. Good luck and keep us involved in the process.
Merry Christmas and thanks for all of the time you spent helping me get restarted.
Crandall & Andre and others,
Here's the current plan. I'm going to tear out the RR&TC and build a 3' x 7' N scale layout with the spare parts I have. There's enough to get trains running and keep me busy while I work on a plan for the basement.
I think I'm going to build Phase 3 of my basement layout first. The terrain of the area between Willits and Ukiah is very similar to what I was modeling as the West. It will also have the most operational complexity and continuous running. I just have to design the whole basement before I get started, because I'll have to marry the three phases later. I figure the design will take me 3-6 months and the remodel of the basement about the same amount of time--although they could be concurrent.
I'll have a couple three years to build the Old West, then a couple three more to run it while I work the Redwood Empire toward it. That should allow me time to get the Classical Age out of my system.
Then it will be just a matter of swapping out the wagons and horseback riders for motor vehicles.
Why not use your N scale layout as a "proof of concept" test bed for the Redwood Empire? Model Power makes N scale 2-6-0 and 4-4-0 locos lettered for SP (and the tenders have oil bunkers). I'm seriously thinking of building an Nscale layout on a door to test out the concept of building the Monterey Branch of the SP. All I really need for that in the way of motive power is 1 or 2 Spectrum 2-8-0's and a Model Power 4-6-2 (they have one lettered SP and numbered 2454 - a loco often seen on the Del Monte).
andrechapelon wrote: Here's the current plan. I'm going to tear out the RR&TC and build a 3' x 7' N scale layout with the spare parts I have. There's enough to get trains running and keep me busy while I work on a plan for the basement. Why not use your N scale layout as a "proof of concept" test bed for the Redwood Empire? Model Power makes N scale 2-6-0 and 4-4-0 locos lettered for SP (and the tenders have oil bunkers). I'm seriously thinking of building an Nscale layout on a door to test out the concept of building the Monterey Branch of the SP. All I really need for that in the way of motive power is 1 or 2 Spectrum 2-8-0's and a Model Power 4-6-2 (they have one lettered SP and numbered 2454 - a loco often seen on the Del Monte).Andre
That's an interestiing idea. But I'm afraid I might get stuck in N-Scale and have to build a basement sized N-scale layout. I was just thinking in terms of the money and getting something up quickly. I have what I need for a railfan roundy-round. If I built the Redwood Empire even as a test, I'd be scratch building A-frame bridges, etc.
Worse yet, I'll have to buy a bunch of new engines. Then again, I could build the Skunk and run a Mike with a bunch of tourists.
Model power N-scale any good? I hate the one I picked up for HO. They fit decoders okay?
I don't own any, but there was a review of the USRA light Pacific in MR in the April, 2003, MR and one for the "semistreamlined" one in the February, 2005, MR. IIRC, the reviews were pretty favorable.
I'm not sure if the 2-6-0 or 4-4-0 are DCC ready, although I think they are. Unfortunately, the Model Power website is undergoing changes and is not available.
I know it isn't obvious when you live in Pennsylvania, but if you model a California prototype you have to think Hollywood.
Specifically, just up the line from (fill in the blank) on the Redwood Empire, your favorite movie studio maintains a permanent set where they film cowboy/railroad things on a regular basis. There is one interchange track so borrowed V&T and Sierra RR equipment can get in and out, but it's otherwise completely separate from and independent of the Redwood Empire. Logically, the independent lot would have a loop main line, an engine house (but not a major shop) - think Nevada State Railroad Museum, but with 1880-style buildings.
Assuming that filming is about to begin, there should be several crews with HUGE cameras, but no sound booms (you're 12 years too early for "talkies.") Other than that, cowboys, ladies with bustles and sunbonnets, Cavalry troopers and LOTS of self propelled horse turd factories. The director's private car will be parked on the interchange track, and there will be motor vehicles belonging to cast and crew - but not where the cameras can pick them up.
Get the picture? It will be playing at nickelodeons all over in a month or two.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Chip Mouse:
Less is more.
http://www.p-b-l.com/PBL2002/main-ns.html
Don Gibson wrote: Chip Mouse:Less is more.http://www.p-b-l.com/PBL2002/main-ns.html
Good work there.