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[quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3 I dunno about it being "suspicious", it's just that they prefer having the protection (for example, what if the shipment is lost, or if a customer tries to stiff them, etc.), and so do most customers for mostly the same reasons. I don't trust online security, either, but sometimes if you want to play, you have to pay.[/quote] My Aun't had her Identity stolen. While here case specificly was due to lax security proceedures at the hospital my uncle was at while being treated for a heart attack. Its been close to 3 years now, She is still trying to get her life back together, and her credit rating is in the toilet. If that is what you expect me to pay so I can play. Then I would rather scratch build a PRR 4-4-4-4 out of used soda pop cans. [quote]QUOTE: Yes, to me (and a lot of others) it's pretty bad. It's all right if they are by themselves, but if you mix an old Athearn GP9 (for example) with a later Athearn, P2K, Front Range or Atlas GP, it sticks out like the proverbial red thumb. The NH had 30 GP9's, and the old Athearn just isn't "good enough" for me. But considering that I can find undec. scale width GP's at trainshows for $40 to $50, it's not so bad. I shop around quite a bit, and with patience and skill, bargains can be had.[/quote] I guess I am just don't get it then. Before I sat down to write this. I have a Two Bachmann Plus SD45s. and like 6 Athearn SD45s. I took one of my Bachmann SD45s and an Athearn one. Sat them side by side. While I can notice there is a difference in width. Its not worth worring about in my opinion. I guess the mentality is just lost on me. [quote]QUOTE: Well, remember that the RPP's were never really "kits", they were just shells and frames at the most. That's not a kit, that's a part. [:)] They also had a lot of problems, detail and scale wise. So it's difficult for Athearn to simply offer them as kits because of all the modifications they made to the shell to improve it (they'd have to include all the parts, and paint it). Undec.'s, sure, but they are just as expensive to make as the RTR (note the new RS-3 is like that).[/quote] I realise that RPP shells were just that. You needed an Athearn Locomotive to fini***hem off, Which is why they were a good match for Athearn to Purchase them. Its Ok if they upgrade the detail. But then they completly ruined it by offering them only as RTR. I must be in for it bad because I have actually purchased some Athearn RTR. Most from my LHS. A few from Mail Order. Every Piece I have found defective. The cars have had everything from grosely out of guage wheels. (Ran just perfect on HOn3 track)to trucks put on upside down. And marred lettering I am going to have to fix. The locomotive (An F7 A&B set) Needed parts from my spares box because apparently they were in such a hurry to ship it out they couldn't finish it. I have not been impressed with Athearn RTR. Unfortunatly I seem to be the only person experiencing this rash of bad luck with them so no one can vouch with me that the RTR line is an enormouse piece of Junk. [quote]QUOTE: Remember...to you (and me for that matter), it's a hobby. To "them" (them being the manufacturers and magazines), it's a business...not a hobby. They are in this to make money, and they are trying their best to seperate you from the most money they can. That's why they spend big bucks to take out full color ads in MR and RMC, why they attend hobby shows like Springfield (MA) and the NMRA convention. They are trying to entice you to buy...always have and always will. Sure, to some it's a hobby and a business. But if they try to make it as an extension of their hobby rather than a business, then they are going to be an ex-manufacturer before too long. Is that wrong?[/quote] The law requires me to answer no. [quote]QUOTE: Um, ok, but what's your point? You can still buy the Bachmann Niagra from Walthers today for $122. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-11305 Detail parts will add a few bucks (depending on the article, it could be a lot of cash if you have to replace trucks and drivers, or not much for only a few detail parts). Say it adds $30 for detail parts. Add another $100 for sound, speakers, Kadees, etc. And you've got about $250...the cost of the BLI Niagra which is, you have to admit, a much better model than the Bachmann one (runs smoother, pulls more, sounds better, more dependable, etc.).[/quote] My Point is, if you are willing to put forth a little effort, show a little persistance. and are patient, you can have stuff just as nice. Without costing an arm and a leg. [quote]QUOTE: Sure, but you have to admit that 1). it's a rare example indeed, as there is only two examples made of snap together models that I've ever heard of in HO scale (the Big Boy and the Niagra). And 2). You're looking at a lot of work, not only trying to get a snap kit to roll, but just the building of the Big Boy mechanism kit. For some folks, and extra $200 is worth it so they don't have to rivet all those side rods. There's nothing wrong with it, but some folk think that running trains is more important than building them, and they are willing to pay real money to get the trains running ASAP. Some want even more detail and fidelity to prototype, but can't afford $2000 for a brass model. $750 isn't that bad compared to $2000 for a simular product with sound (that brass still doesn't have). There's nothing wrong with that, either. Some people have more money than you or me. It's doesn't make them any better or worse. [/quote] While it may be true that Monogram only made two Locomotive Kits. A Big Boy and a Hudson. There have been a large number of static locomotive kits made over the years by various companies in many scales. Powering them offers a great deal of economy comared to purchasing a powered model of the same locomotive from another firm. [quote]QUOTE: A person can carve their locos out of soap, too, and make out like a bandit...just don't let it get wet. [:)] And these locos may not be out of stock if the Challengers are any indication.[/quote] I have yet to be able to afford an Athearn Challenger yet as well. [quote]QUOTE: Who has "shamed and ridiculed" you because you won't spend? To me, it's not that they are jealous of your craftsman skills as much as someone is jealous of the money others can spend on their hobby. The worst I've said here about you has been your apparent lack of interest in bargain shopping while you're complaining that you can't find any deals in Wyoming...and you have internet access This hobby can be as cheap or expensive as you choose. You can build boxcars out of paper like they did during the Depression, wind your own motor cores, cast your own smoke boxes out of lead, etc. I know one guy who uses an alligator clamp and a 2x4" with nails wired up for his block control. He also sifts street sand for his ballast (after washing it). He's a heckuva modeler, but I don't think he's ever spent more than $50 for a loco in his life.[/quote] People at the hobby shop. people whom I have met, several people here. All of them ask me. "Why do you want to do that for? WHen you can just go buy one?" Maybe its not so much ridicule, But It makes me very self concious and very fefensive and I don't feel I should have to defend why or how I do things. And perhaps you are right, maybe I am jealouse a little of all the money others can spend. I am going through hard times right now. And I just see the money that so and so is spending, and I think. Oh what I could do with that. However I do like the 2X4 with nails Idea. I just might try that one. As for ballast, I used crushed oil bearing shale. It has a nice dark gray color to it, and can be crushed really fine. I have gotten some down to a nice powder for my brother who works in N scale. [quote]QUOTE: And your point? Who cares if he sends them to Timbuktoo for repainting and sound. Last I checked, Tony isn't getting any younger, and he certainly has nothing to prove to anyone (including you) that he's model railroader. Maybe...just maybe...the actual running of the trains is now more important to Tony than repainting a bunch of steamers. He obviously has the money to do so, so why knock him for wanting to get the wheels rolling on his lifetime dream layout that he's always wanted? Especially after all the work that he's done both on his AM and for the hobby. Is it now crime to want to run trains ASAP? You sound awfully bitter about a guy who's done a heckuva lot more than either one of us...[/quote] I actually sound bitter? Dissapointed Yes. But Bitter? Maybe I should relax just a little then. Anyway, I am dissapointed in him. Because when I was younger. and model trains were the escale from the hell that was my daily life. He espused though his trians of thought columns a philosophy of for lack of a better words. Pride in your work and Craftsmanship. It was a message that I tuned into. And now here he is turning his back to that philosophy at every turn. Sending the models off for reworking. Buying stuff for this and that when back when I was taking every word he said as gosple, would have been scratch built. I guess I feel like the old rusting signal mast out in the woods the tracks that I was meant to protect having long since been abandoned. For me its about as heart breaking as learning Duke Cunningham (Childhood hero) is guilty of bribery and is now going to prison. [quote]QUOTE: For starters, that's a lot of typing. I've done stuff like that before, and it's not easy. My thanks for doing that. However, I have to question the matter of "tone". It's totally subjective, and if you go in thinking he's jerk, he's going to sound like a jerk even if he was only writing down cookie recipes. At worst, one could accuse him of making a mistake comparing the terms "state of the art" with "good enough". They aren't the same for most people. For Tony, apparently, he likes to consider himself at the state of the art...so that's his "good enough" level. Odd, but you have to admit he's been ahead of the curve for most of his model railroading career. At no point in his article did he say that one wasn't a model railroader if you don't do what he says. You are reading waaaay too much into this thing. The only things in his list that are "expensive" are sound and DCC. Oh, and at no point did I read that Tony K. railed against scratch building in his article. Perhaps that was in a different issue?[/quote] Again perhaps you are right. Maybe my sense of being the congregation abandoned by the pastor, has clouded my objectivity. And no he didn't ralley against scratchbuilding but it has been close to 8 years since I have seen him write anything advancing its cause. [quote]QUOTE: And no one is putting a gun to your head making you pay these prices, either. But, please, spare us the drama of "nobody makes anything I can afford". That's hooey, and you know it. If you can afford Bachmann GP30's and GP35's (both of which retail for $55 ea.), then you can afford: Walthers Trainline - GP9M, FA-1, FB-1, F40PH, GP15-1 (all $55 or less) Athearn loco kits - most are under $55...all but the SD40-2's, AC4400, C44-9W And then there's the Model Power, Bachmann, Life-Like train set stuff that's all under $55. BTW, there wasn't that much under $55 in 1993, either. Also, I was at a train show last weekend where there was a used Atlas/Kato RS-3 for $12, and new in the box Atlas units for $50, Proto 1000 DL109's for $55, and many other simular deals. So shop around. Not that you're going to find these sales in Wyoming, but on the net, many things are possible. But please stop with the "nobody makes anything I can afford" mantra. It's just not so. Now, it may be true that nobody makes anything you want that you can afford. That I believe...I run into that all the time. [:)][/quote] I really can't afford those Bachmann Locos. But if I do things like go without food for a while I can squese a purchase every so often. as for a train show. It would be nice to have. But I have to go to Denver or Salt Lake to attend one. [quote]QUOTE: Tell the owner that those moron's are costing him business. Then we'll see how much the owner a) appreciates his regulars and b) handles his employees. If anyone came into my store and complained that one of my employees was driving away business, then I'd have a serious conversation with my employee. I'd get their side of the story, and if it's bogus, then I'd be all over them. If it's explainable (there is such a thing as crazy customers), then I'd shrug it off once (accident) or twice (coincidence), but three times would constitute "enemy action" and would need some corrective behavior on the part of the employee or they're gone.[/quote] I have wanted to many times, But its a case where the dudes behind the counter are his son in law, and his best friend. I don't know how strong the loyalty is there. But if its like most family run businesses in this state. I might as well find an old bachmann announcing train station and begin calling out train departures for my 3/4 in tall pink plastic people. [quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 James, hope you don't mind, but let's switch up here. Paul3 made some very good points. Now I think I understand your view a little better. Your speaking from your economic view based on your current situation. Very understandable. Don't give up, amigo! Our economy is prospering, but the situation has changed dramatically where many of us don't seem to be benefiting from the strong economy. Caution though! I'm not sure about your college, but most college professors I've encountered are extremely cynical and liberalized in their views and do a great job of rubbing it off on students. I hope they haven't poisoned your attitude. I have to disagree with your comment about women. I'm a news junkie and see the media (and college professors) OVER BLOWING and STRETCHING their info. While there is still some bias, it's nothing like it was 20 years ago when I was in junior college. A lot of women are jumping in at opportunities left and right. I went to a training class for collision repair and was shocked to see that the entire class for new insurance adjustors was composed of women! No way you would have seen that in the early 80s! Remember, whether "Dubaya" is in the White House or "Kerry" the heavy corporate outsourcing trend we have today started over a decade ago. Neither one of these guys could stop it or would try, regardless of their promises. FOR YOU, there are still great career opportunities out there, but nowadays it may require relocating and/or getting into a field that you had not planned on. Example: A friend of mine, who had earned a Bachelor's degree in business, became a transit bus driver after being unable to find a job "at his education level". Most elitists would have looked down at him. He didn't complain, kept his nose clean, often gave input and suggestions to his bosses, joined various committees, interacted with blue collar and white collar employess, became a union stewart, etc. Just 4 years later, he became one of the managers earning a hefty salary. One of my neighbors was a corporate junior executive who was laid off of his financial management job due to "downsizing". He was still paying back his college loans, which were high. Though deep in debt, he was aggressive. He quickly looked at different career options. I was surprised when he went to work for a Toyota dealership as a salesman. Though he initially had a bit of a "snooty" attitude, he discovered that salesmen with good people skills make as much or more money than their "degreed" bosses. My point is, don't be discouraged, but don't sit still. You may have to put the hobby on a "temporary hold", and seriously explore career options. They're out there! Here in Florida, "High End" collision repair shops are desperate for Collision Estimators. A good, computer literate, well organized estimator today at a large Cadillac dealership can earn an easy $65,000 per year. There is also a demand for teachers, transit authority professionals, Auto parts store managers, insurance adjustors, teachers, etc. You may be feeling depressed at times, which is normal but not healthy. I KNOW! Do your career research and go for it. If what your aspiring for is currently not available, take a "positive detour". LIke my friend above, he really enjoys mass transit. It is possible to get to that stage where paying $120 or so for a locomotive won't be a big deal. But always take care of home and debt first. Peace to you, Student/Grayhound [4:-)][tup] [/quote] Thanks for your Kind words Antonio. And thanks for the encouragment, and the understanding. My Women not being welcoem coment was referring to how Martha Stewart got treated. I feel that if she were a man instead, the whole matter would have been sweaped under the rug, Instead the made a big fiasco out of it and she spent 5 months in prison. All for something I would have done myself. [quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton You know, with a few relatively minor changes, this could have been about me in 1980, when I got out of college. Prices had been going up at double-digit rates for several years. Still, I expected to be able to enjoy a little extra cash, and maybe afford a luxury or two. Boy, did I feel cheated! In order to get a job I had to live 2000+ miles from where I still consider home. Had I refused to take a job outside of the state of Wyoming or immediately around it, I would have wound up on welfare. Instead I wound up in Philly. My school debts also were eating me alive, and after I started working years passed before I could purchase anything I would consider a luxury. In fact, I couldn't even afford to buy a modest house until I'd been working nearly ten years! This note may come across as unsympatheic, James, or as an attempt to marginalize your difficulties, but it isn't meant in either of those ways. What I'm saying is that probably many of us have gone through similar situations, and things have worked out. I had a lot of what I now think were unrealistic expectations coming out of college (though I do still feel like I was cheated in some way), but I made some tough decisions (like moving to Philly) and survived the bumps in the road. You will, too - better days are a-comin'. Ya just have to persevere. Might as well take the bull by the horns and make him give you a ride - the time will pass anyway. [/quote] Thank you for posting that. It gives me some hope. Its reassuring that there is some one else that has gone through what I am going through and things have turned out alright. Thank you very much. [quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by selector Put more bluntly, but more academically, intelligence is a measure of an organism's ability to survive, or to adapt. Get some counselling from a reputable job-search organization, or if that is unthinkable/not affordable, walk down a different "street." The longer you stay in the hole, the less attractive you will be to a prospective employer. They will wonder what is wrong with you, and will not be kindly disposed toward you. So, you must take a whole new approach, even a new career path if need be, and get going. Use your youth and energy while you have it, but use it to get launched in a way that you find fulfilling. I dislike this type of approach to motivation, as it seems cold, detached, and uncaring. But I have learned that, if you can get past the emotion, the fear, and the sense of hopelessness, the words are "right". Adapt, and you will survive. Adapt, and you will be able to run a model railroad the way you dream of it. Regards, -Crandell [/quote] Surviving is what I am doing right now. And Im not liking it. And I have been putting in Applications. However looking farther affield is harder to do as I need Money to do that and money is something I do not have. James
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