Best way to model water? Ways to build mountains?

[Anonymous]

What is the best method to accurately model water and depths in HO scale?

I'm also going to be building a mountain soon on my layout complete with tunnel. What is a good method to use to get realistic results?

Thanks!
-Dale

[Anonymous]

What is the best method to accurately model water and depths in HO scale?

I'm also going to be building a mountain soon on my layout complete with tunnel. What is a good method to use to get realistic results?

Thanks!
-Dale

[Anonymous]

[:)]Hi Dale,
The best example that I've seen to date were a couple of articles by Geoff Nott. Check the article listing for Model Railroader on this site to find the issues that had stuff written by him. He's an Aussie with a FANTASTIC logging railroad. The pic's were outstanding - the water even looked real!
I haven't had the chance to try his methods yet, as I'm still laying track.
Good luck!
Tim

[Anonymous]

[:)]Hi Dale,
The best example that I've seen to date were a couple of articles by Geoff Nott. Check the article listing for Model Railroader on this site to find the issues that had stuff written by him. He's an Aussie with a FANTASTIC logging railroad. The pic's were outstanding - the water even looked real!
I haven't had the chance to try his methods yet, as I'm still laying track.
Good luck!
Tim

[Anonymous]

Well.. there are several ways to model water, ever thought of woodland scenics realistic water? if you didn't neither have I. For deep water you can paint the middle of the lake, river or whatever, and pour anything transparent, gooey and stinky (so to speak), i.e transparent glue, resin, etc. If you're using this method make sure your riverbed it leak proof (or else you won't sleep, the dripping noise is awful!). Of course there's an alternative. A fellow model railroader gave me this transparent plastic sheet that is all wavy and liquid looking. I don't know where he got that plastic but I suspect it's used in windows.
As for mountains... now that's entertaining. Since you mentioned a tunnel, I'll begin there. first you cut pieces of foamboard (the hard, one inch thick, pink or blue stuff) in the appropriate sizes and line them up forming the tunnel walls (and don't forget the roof), you might want to detail it with wooden supports or stone faces and rocks if you'll provide an acces hatch, just for the show. After the tunnel is formed, add (or make) the portals. To make the mountain, cut mountain profiles out of heavy cardboard, then attach them to the layout's edges. Now fill all that space with wadded newspaper and fasten it in place with wide masking tape. Then cover all that with several layers of plaster cloth. When it sets, color it with some thinned water based paint (and I mean Thinned), add some rocks and rock outcroppings, soil, grass, trees and anything else you want. Good Luck!
- Charlie

[Anonymous]

Well.. there are several ways to model water, ever thought of woodland scenics realistic water? if you didn't neither have I. For deep water you can paint the middle of the lake, river or whatever, and pour anything transparent, gooey and stinky (so to speak), i.e transparent glue, resin, etc. If you're using this method make sure your riverbed it leak proof (or else you won't sleep, the dripping noise is awful!). Of course there's an alternative. A fellow model railroader gave me this transparent plastic sheet that is all wavy and liquid looking. I don't know where he got that plastic but I suspect it's used in windows.
As for mountains... now that's entertaining. Since you mentioned a tunnel, I'll begin there. first you cut pieces of foamboard (the hard, one inch thick, pink or blue stuff) in the appropriate sizes and line them up forming the tunnel walls (and don't forget the roof), you might want to detail it with wooden supports or stone faces and rocks if you'll provide an acces hatch, just for the show. After the tunnel is formed, add (or make) the portals. To make the mountain, cut mountain profiles out of heavy cardboard, then attach them to the layout's edges. Now fill all that space with wadded newspaper and fasten it in place with wide masking tape. Then cover all that with several layers of plaster cloth. When it sets, color it with some thinned water based paint (and I mean Thinned), add some rocks and rock outcroppings, soil, grass, trees and anything else you want. Good Luck!
- Charlie

[Anonymous]

On building my Port of Melmatt, I first painted the water area a very dark blue to indicate deep water blending down to a lighter blue for the more shallow areas. I then used Woodland Scenics realistic water until I had about an 1/8th of an inch all over. I left it for a couple of hours then lightly blew over it with a hairdryer to form the wave effects. I also used their Water Effects to show bow waves and wakes of any moving ships. I was very pleased with the results.
As for my mountains, I also used the wadded newspapers, cardboard frames and plaster cloth as already mentioned also with very good results.
Trust your imagination. Have fun.

[Anonymous]

On building my Port of Melmatt, I first painted the water area a very dark blue to indicate deep water blending down to a lighter blue for the more shallow areas. I then used Woodland Scenics realistic water until I had about an 1/8th of an inch all over. I left it for a couple of hours then lightly blew over it with a hairdryer to form the wave effects. I also used their Water Effects to show bow waves and wakes of any moving ships. I was very pleased with the results.
As for my mountains, I also used the wadded newspapers, cardboard frames and plaster cloth as already mentioned also with very good results.
Trust your imagination. Have fun.

[n2mopac]

Let me tell you from personal experience how NOT to model water. Many hobby shops still carry the older Woodland Scenics product called E Z Water (plastic pellets you melt and pour in). DO NOT use this stuff, and I'll tell you why. 1, the melting temp is very hot, which is a pain and a litter dangerous. 2, when you pour the hot melt it ALWAYS bubbles. The only way to solve this is to use a head gun on it when it sets up (a hair dryer won't do it). This will melt/burn anything withing several inches of your water. 3, it shrinks. Not overnight, but give it 6 months to a year. I will begin to pull away from the banks. Again, you can fix it with a heat gun, but you have the same problem I mentioned above. 4, with any significant temperature changes it will crack. My first layout used some of this stuff and after a year it pulled away from all the banks and after three years it looked like a spider web of cracks. Not very convincing water I assure you.

Now that I have said that, let me say that Woodland Scenics two NEW products, Realistic Water and Water Effects, are excellent. Realistic Water pours at room temperature, self levels and self heals. It is also quite flexible, so it doesn't pull away like EZ Water. Also, if it should, you can simply pour a tiny bit more and fix it. Warning, be careful when pouring. It is thick and spreads slowly. If you are not careful you can pour too much before you realize it. Also, pour no more than 1/8 inch depth at a time and be prepared for a 2-3 day drying time. The overnight drying stated on the bottle is way too optimistic. It dries beautifully when cured, however. It is clear, so paint your bottom surface dull black for very deep water and murky green for more shallow water (blend them together gently to transition from shoreline to deep water). After it is set it will be glassy smooth. You can add waves, etc with Water Effects. It has a look and consistency of thick glue, but dries clear. I stipple it on with a stiff bru***o make small ripples/waves. If you want a more drastic look, you can peek it with a toothpick to make largere waves. I have used this technique on my new layout and am very pleased with it. Good luck.
Ron

[n2mopac]

Let me tell you from personal experience how NOT to model water. Many hobby shops still carry the older Woodland Scenics product called E Z Water (plastic pellets you melt and pour in). DO NOT use this stuff, and I'll tell you why. 1, the melting temp is very hot, which is a pain and a litter dangerous. 2, when you pour the hot melt it ALWAYS bubbles. The only way to solve this is to use a head gun on it when it sets up (a hair dryer won't do it). This will melt/burn anything withing several inches of your water. 3, it shrinks. Not overnight, but give it 6 months to a year. I will begin to pull away from the banks. Again, you can fix it with a heat gun, but you have the same problem I mentioned above. 4, with any significant temperature changes it will crack. My first layout used some of this stuff and after a year it pulled away from all the banks and after three years it looked like a spider web of cracks. Not very convincing water I assure you.

Now that I have said that, let me say that Woodland Scenics two NEW products, Realistic Water and Water Effects, are excellent. Realistic Water pours at room temperature, self levels and self heals. It is also quite flexible, so it doesn't pull away like EZ Water. Also, if it should, you can simply pour a tiny bit more and fix it. Warning, be careful when pouring. It is thick and spreads slowly. If you are not careful you can pour too much before you realize it. Also, pour no more than 1/8 inch depth at a time and be prepared for a 2-3 day drying time. The overnight drying stated on the bottle is way too optimistic. It dries beautifully when cured, however. It is clear, so paint your bottom surface dull black for very deep water and murky green for more shallow water (blend them together gently to transition from shoreline to deep water). After it is set it will be glassy smooth. You can add waves, etc with Water Effects. It has a look and consistency of thick glue, but dries clear. I stipple it on with a stiff bru***o make small ripples/waves. If you want a more drastic look, you can peek it with a toothpick to make largere waves. I have used this technique on my new layout and am very pleased with it. Good luck.
Ron

[Anonymous]

The way I make mountains is by taking roofing tiles and stacking them on top of each other and simply cutting out areas for the train to go through and cut along the outside to get the mountain look. I then used plaster of paris as a coat for the whole thing. I have used this many times. JUst go to places where they are reduing buildings. Most the time they are throwing away these old tiles and are more then willing to let you take "their garbage". Not sure if there is a better way, but I know this way works great for me.

[Anonymous]

The way I make mountains is by taking roofing tiles and stacking them on top of each other and simply cutting out areas for the train to go through and cut along the outside to get the mountain look. I then used plaster of paris as a coat for the whole thing. I have used this many times. JUst go to places where they are reduing buildings. Most the time they are throwing away these old tiles and are more then willing to let you take "their garbage". Not sure if there is a better way, but I know this way works great for me.

[Anonymous]

Regarding modeling water, which is the best to use for a log pond and a quite river - Envirotex or Woodland Scenics Realistic Water? Also, with the two methods, how thick can you poor it, and could you layer it to get a deeper effect?

[Anonymous]

Regarding modeling water, which is the best to use for a log pond and a quite river - Envirotex or Woodland Scenics Realistic Water? Also, with the two methods, how thick can you poor it, and could you layer it to get a deeper effect?

[Anonymous]

For water, have you ever considered using real water with a waterfall and a pump? Very basic to create, and with a bit of dye, painted waterways, and obstructions to create 'waves' it looks extremely real. For mountains I recommend polystyrene and balsa wood, as always, then painted afterward. It also depends on what motif you're going for, whether your railroad is completely real. One of my railroads is extremely abstract, and is quite striking. You may wi***o consider changing a portion of your own railroad into a strange hazy place/.

[Anonymous]

For water, have you ever considered using real water with a waterfall and a pump? Very basic to create, and with a bit of dye, painted waterways, and obstructions to create 'waves' it looks extremely real. For mountains I recommend polystyrene and balsa wood, as always, then painted afterward. It also depends on what motif you're going for, whether your railroad is completely real. One of my railroads is extremely abstract, and is quite striking. You may wi***o consider changing a portion of your own railroad into a strange hazy place/.

[Anonymous]

I read about a neat way to make mountains using expanding insulating foam. The article recommended covering the track with crumpled newspaper covered with plastic wrap, such as Saran Wrap. (The way I did it.) I would recommend making a more solid tunnel using foam core board or cardboard. Since my mountain backed up against a wall, I used paint stir sticks spaced across the back and then taped cardboard across the back to hold the stuff in. It was removed after curing. Shake up your canned foam and start filling it up roughly in the shape of your mountain. When it dries, (2-3 days) you can use a knife or hacksaw blade to carve and shape the mountain. A word of caution: It will keep expanding as it dries. I sprayed it along elevated tracks and it jacked them up to about 10 degrees! I had to cut the bottom off and push it all back down! When dry, I removed the cardboard from the back and pulled out the newspaper. I only had to cut it out in a few places for better clearance. It makes a strong, lightweight mountain. I'm covering most of it with trees, so rock shapes were not a big deal to me. I would use it again.

[Anonymous]

I read about a neat way to make mountains using expanding insulating foam. The article recommended covering the track with crumpled newspaper covered with plastic wrap, such as Saran Wrap. (The way I did it.) I would recommend making a more solid tunnel using foam core board or cardboard. Since my mountain backed up against a wall, I used paint stir sticks spaced across the back and then taped cardboard across the back to hold the stuff in. It was removed after curing. Shake up your canned foam and start filling it up roughly in the shape of your mountain. When it dries, (2-3 days) you can use a knife or hacksaw blade to carve and shape the mountain. A word of caution: It will keep expanding as it dries. I sprayed it along elevated tracks and it jacked them up to about 10 degrees! I had to cut the bottom off and push it all back down! When dry, I removed the cardboard from the back and pulled out the newspaper. I only had to cut it out in a few places for better clearance. It makes a strong, lightweight mountain. I'm covering most of it with trees, so rock shapes were not a big deal to me. I would use it again.

[Anonymous]

I have used accoustical ceiling tile layers alternating with thin styrofoam (beadboard) to model mountains. Liquid nails for the adhesive. I built up alternate layers representing sandstone, hard (tile) and soft (beadboard) layers. I did this in Z-scale, but in retrospect, the layers alternated too regularly. In N or HO, thinner strata layers in proportion to size of the track will allow you to varry layer thickness more easily. Also, if you can see 1:1 rock strata, one or both or 2 things is happening: (1) the layers are exposed above the ground surface at an angle, anywhere from 5° to 45°, or (2) the layers have been incised by artificial rock cut or natural water cut or canyon. Natural cuts are best represented by crumbling away the rough layer edge with your finger tips. Tile looks like sandstone or slate/shale. The beadboard, if crumbled away, looks like conglomerate after a sealing with thinned Liquid Nails. Paul

[Anonymous]

I have used accoustical ceiling tile layers alternating with thin styrofoam (beadboard) to model mountains. Liquid nails for the adhesive. I built up alternate layers representing sandstone, hard (tile) and soft (beadboard) layers. I did this in Z-scale, but in retrospect, the layers alternated too regularly. In N or HO, thinner strata layers in proportion to size of the track will allow you to varry layer thickness more easily. Also, if you can see 1:1 rock strata, one or both or 2 things is happening: (1) the layers are exposed above the ground surface at an angle, anywhere from 5° to 45°, or (2) the layers have been incised by artificial rock cut or natural water cut or canyon. Natural cuts are best represented by crumbling away the rough layer edge with your finger tips. Tile looks like sandstone or slate/shale. The beadboard, if crumbled away, looks like conglomerate after a sealing with thinned Liquid Nails. Paul

[Anonymous]

The envirotex worked ok for my layout and it still looks great with no adjustments after 7 years but be aware that it settles to a flat profile (like standing water) although I'd tried stippling it right before it was completely cured (as suggested in Model Railroader) with no real luck (it settled flat anyway!) I also painted the bottom of the rivers black (to emulate Deep water) and feathered out the embankments with a grey/green mixture. For more realism and detail (which I love) I broke up some of my yard landscaping stones with a hammer and laid in a graveled embankment at the edges of the water so that it was covered with the envirotex "water" when I poured it. They suggest you lightly blow on it as it dries since the carbon dioxide from your breathe helps remove the bubbles. (Note: this works GREAT!) Add some "water grass" reed clumps to the top with Woodland Scenics long grass (actually soft straw cut to length) in yellow and green combinations) and WOW does it look real !!!!! A "trick" for you mountains I found was to "break" some of the hydrocal plaster moulded rocks in half after you remove them from the molds and THEN fit them where they look best. It will add to the variety of shapes you can get in your mountain texture and the realism is scary. I've not read of this trick ANYWHERE in the magazines so this is the first time I've written this little secret to anyone since I completed my layout. I used the 2" basket weave cardboard strips (cut from boxes) and hotglue to form the "frame" of my mountains & used a staple gun to secure the edges to the wood frame of my layout. It weighs almost nothing but fully supported my 170lbs. of weight. I then covered the cardboard basketweave strips with plaster cloth and finally finished it off with hydrocal plaster rock molds I poured just using rubber rock molds, hydrocal plaster, lemon dishwashing liquid sprayed into the rubber mold before each pour (as a release agent) and a shower curtain on the floor to keep from getting the carpet in my train room messed up during the process. Then you just "mortar" the molds into place with more plaster using a flat trowel (just like laying brick). The advantage of "hydrocal" plaster (found in bags at any hobby shop) is that it's roughly 1/10th the weight per volume of regular plaster yet much stronger. To paint your mountains just use an old Windex spray bottle and spray you colors on one at a time using the "leapord spot" techniques called out in the " woodland scenics " books. Finally over spray your finished work with a dilute 3 parts water & 1 part India ink solution over ALL your mountains to add the "shadows" normally seen in nature and then overspray with a final coat of Scenic sealer spray. I know this sounds like a lot of steps but WOW is it worth it when you're done. I purposely chose NOT to use the styrofoam bricks, expanding foam and newspaper ideas since my layout mountains actually have 3 track levels inside with switch backs and some track going UNDER other track as I created 4% grades. All is accessable underneath since it's open girder construction and I've successfully used electronic track pulse cleaners to keep it sparkling clean with almost no effort. Hopefully my wife will have the skirting finished and sewn soon so I can start submitting digital photos and a write-up to Model Railroader soon. Mine is actually an N scale layout but the techniques spelled out above will work in any gauge. Good luck and remember to not take too many shortcuts since attention to detail and careful planning really pay off in the finished product.

Paul Plovick
Chandler, Arizona
"Casa Vieja" railroad layout

[Anonymous]

The envirotex worked ok for my layout and it still looks great with no adjustments after 7 years but be aware that it settles to a flat profile (like standing water) although I'd tried stippling it right before it was completely cured (as suggested in Model Railroader) with no real luck (it settled flat anyway!) I also painted the bottom of the rivers black (to emulate Deep water) and feathered out the embankments with a grey/green mixture. For more realism and detail (which I love) I broke up some of my yard landscaping stones with a hammer and laid in a graveled embankment at the edges of the water so that it was covered with the envirotex "water" when I poured it. They suggest you lightly blow on it as it dries since the carbon dioxide from your breathe helps remove the bubbles. (Note: this works GREAT!) Add some "water grass" reed clumps to the top with Woodland Scenics long grass (actually soft straw cut to length) in yellow and green combinations) and WOW does it look real !!!!! A "trick" for you mountains I found was to "break" some of the hydrocal plaster moulded rocks in half after you remove them from the molds and THEN fit them where they look best. It will add to the variety of shapes you can get in your mountain texture and the realism is scary. I've not read of this trick ANYWHERE in the magazines so this is the first time I've written this little secret to anyone since I completed my layout. I used the 2" basket weave cardboard strips (cut from boxes) and hotglue to form the "frame" of my mountains & used a staple gun to secure the edges to the wood frame of my layout. It weighs almost nothing but fully supported my 170lbs. of weight. I then covered the cardboard basketweave strips with plaster cloth and finally finished it off with hydrocal plaster rock molds I poured just using rubber rock molds, hydrocal plaster, lemon dishwashing liquid sprayed into the rubber mold before each pour (as a release agent) and a shower curtain on the floor to keep from getting the carpet in my train room messed up during the process. Then you just "mortar" the molds into place with more plaster using a flat trowel (just like laying brick). The advantage of "hydrocal" plaster (found in bags at any hobby shop) is that it's roughly 1/10th the weight per volume of regular plaster yet much stronger. To paint your mountains just use an old Windex spray bottle and spray you colors on one at a time using the "leapord spot" techniques called out in the " woodland scenics " books. Finally over spray your finished work with a dilute 3 parts water & 1 part India ink solution over ALL your mountains to add the "shadows" normally seen in nature and then overspray with a final coat of Scenic sealer spray. I know this sounds like a lot of steps but WOW is it worth it when you're done. I purposely chose NOT to use the styrofoam bricks, expanding foam and newspaper ideas since my layout mountains actually have 3 track levels inside with switch backs and some track going UNDER other track as I created 4% grades. All is accessable underneath since it's open girder construction and I've successfully used electronic track pulse cleaners to keep it sparkling clean with almost no effort. Hopefully my wife will have the skirting finished and sewn soon so I can start submitting digital photos and a write-up to Model Railroader soon. Mine is actually an N scale layout but the techniques spelled out above will work in any gauge. Good luck and remember to not take too many shortcuts since attention to detail and careful planning really pay off in the finished product.

Paul Plovick
Chandler, Arizona
"Casa Vieja" railroad layout

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by avbreda

Regarding modeling water, which is the best to use for a log pond and a quite river - Envirotex or Woodland Scenics Realistic Water? Also, with the two methods, how thick can you poor it, and could you layer it to get a deeper effect?

I've never used Envirotex, but the Woodland Scenics Realistic Water would work great. You only want to pour 1/8" or less at a time, but you can layer it if you let each layer dry completely (2-3 days). I have poured a portion nearly 1/2" deep ant it looks great (after 5 pours).

"For water, have you ever considered using real water with a waterfall and a pump? Very basic to create, and with a bit of dye, painted waterways, and obstructions to create 'waves' it looks extremely real."

I would NOT reccomend this. Number one, 1:1 water does not look prototyical in an HO or smaller environment. You can't scale down real water. But more importantly, the real water will reaise moisture/humidity levels on your layout and eventually things will begin to mold, mildew, and rot, not to mention rust. These are scenarios you want to avoid.
Ron

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by avbreda

Regarding modeling water, which is the best to use for a log pond and a quite river - Envirotex or Woodland Scenics Realistic Water? Also, with the two methods, how thick can you poor it, and could you layer it to get a deeper effect?

I've never used Envirotex, but the Woodland Scenics Realistic Water would work great. You only want to pour 1/8" or less at a time, but you can layer it if you let each layer dry completely (2-3 days). I have poured a portion nearly 1/2" deep ant it looks great (after 5 pours).

"For water, have you ever considered using real water with a waterfall and a pump? Very basic to create, and with a bit of dye, painted waterways, and obstructions to create 'waves' it looks extremely real."

I would NOT reccomend this. Number one, 1:1 water does not look prototyical in an HO or smaller environment. You can't scale down real water. But more importantly, the real water will reaise moisture/humidity levels on your layout and eventually things will begin to mold, mildew, and rot, not to mention rust. These are scenarios you want to avoid.
Ron