Benchwork ponderings

[Bob Hayes]

I've been buying 3/4" shop grade for $26, and ripping it on my table saw. Don't have any problems with screws if I first pre-drill. I find having several drills around handy; one has the drill bit, another has the screwdriver bit. BTW, Harbor Freight had 12v drills for less than $10 at their on line site. They use a key chuck, but if you set them up as I described above, it doesn't matter.

Bob Hayes

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

Maybe i"m missing something here, but how come everybody uses 1by 4 or 1 by 3's. Why not use good old cheap 2 by 4's?

The original question was about lightweight benchwork. Sure 2x4s are cheap and plentiful (if you can find straight ones), and they are strong. But lightweight - not really [;)]

Andrew

[trollw]

For steel benchwork you don't even need a hacksaw, just a good pair of tin snips - much easier and a lot less tiring.

[robengland]

Timber: use plywood. If there is a price difference it isn't much. It is lighter and straighter and you can do fancy things like kinks in your girders. A suggestion: 3/4" is probably overkill. I've seen folks use much lighter ply for the web of the girder, then sandwich it with 1" x 1" (or less) pine, basically cleats, for the flanges. You don't need to edge-screw, you are screwing thru the flange from one web to the other, so you can use really light ply. The resulting beam is light and strong. Personally i haven't done it yet but others have and it makes good sense to me.

Steel: I tried steel stud framing. I won't again. Maybe my design sucked, but I found it sharp edged, hard to do tricky corners etc, hard to revise (Ok I used rivets not screws) and much less useful once finished. By "useful" I mean that with timber framing you can attach stuff to it at all sorts of angles for panels, shelves, curtains etc etc by just driving in a screw. With steel you have a theree-sided member that often presents to you its open side or a sharp edge just where you want some meat to get a screw into. It also flexes more making attaching shelves etc a challenge. I'd say it is good for the purpose used in the recent MR article: as basically a wall to support the benchwork on, but I would use timber for the joists/table frame.

[accord1959]

I started my layout with steel and it is great, straight and very easy to use, and runs for about $1.40 a 2x4 at Home Depot in canada, it's also available in 2x3's. As for worrying about shorts, they sell plastic gromits that fit in the precut holes so wiring won't snag and cause shorts. I use tin snips, very easy to cut. I top it with 1/2" plywood on top and 1" pink styrofoam on top of that. I recommend it.

[accord1959]

I use steel and it is great, straight and cuts easy with tin snips. They sell for about $1.40 a 2x4 at Home Depot in Canada. They are also available in 2x3's. There are also plastic gromits that fit in the precut holes to prevent wire snagging and shorts. I top it off with 1/2" plywood and 1" styrofoam.

[rckingsnorth]

Regarding Kiln Dried lumber, given time, it with warp and twist. Perhaps not as much as green lumber, but the month-old KD 2X4's in my garage are now best used for firewood.

As for steel studs, the linear expansion from temperature changes is probably more than with wood. But steel will not be affected by humidity. Humidity is the major issue with wood products and homasote. Plywood, with its multiple layers, is relatively stable. I recall that Tony Koester (and other names in print) are using ripped plywood on the structure of their layouts. I cannot speak from experience on the relative merits, but 3/4" plywood is my choice for my new layout. Plywood is relatively stable, straight, and easy to use.

[Anonymous]

Beginning in Sept 1996 MR, David Barrow authored the construction of a Project Layout. He built it using 3/4" plywood.

It's an awesome series - I highy recommend it.

[ereimer]

hey chip i thought i'd let you know that this thread made it into MR's email newsletter [:)]

[nobullchitbids]

In answer to the original query, I recall Tony Koester once saying he used 3/4" plywood because he could not find any 1" plywood.

[Anonymous]

I'm sitting here reading this thread and wondering if anyone has tried the Azek extruded PVC that's used for exterior trim nowadays. It comes in all the standard lumber dimensions (1 x 4, 1 x 5, etc...) and although it's a little less stiff than wood, you could glue-laminate a pair of 40" pieces together and I bet they'd be plenty stiff as layout supports. What do you think?

[orsonroy]

Boy...all this talk about kiln dried lumber, birch plywood, biscuiting, and all that laborious cutting and assembling...I'm glad my layouts are built out of simple 1/4" Lauan and foam. I'm into model railroading, not cabinetmaking!

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

Boy...all this talk about kiln dried lumber, birch plywood, biscuiting, and all that laborious cutting and assembling...I'm glad my layouts are built out of simple 1/4" Lauan and foam. I'm into model railroading, not cabinetmaking!

If you are referring to me, I knocked out my 4x8 frame in under an hour, then when the $#&^ EZ track didn't fit like it was supposed to, save a trip to the store, it took 15 minutes to rebuild. If I can find the right tool, e.g. laser level or sight level, I don't plan to spend more than a day building my basement benchwork--not including the cookie cutting. This is only possible if I have done my homework, have the material on location, and have a well conceived plan. This is not cabinet making; this is framing.

[Anonymous]

Another material that we should be talking about is this stuff called Gator Foam or Gator board that was written about in MR a few months ago. It's available in 3/4" thicknesses and it can be cut with normal power tools or scored with a utility knife and snapped. It's stiff, doesn't react to humidity, is very light and can be assembled quickly with a glue gun. I'm dying to build a small layout with it.

[joebraun]

I have had my railroad now in place for 20+ years. The basic frame is 4x4's for the legs and 2x4's for the grids. I wanted benchwork I could put all my body weight on, if necessary; and it has proved necessary!

For uprights and subroadbed I made a very deliberate and informed decison to use 3/4" A/C (exterior) ply and I am so happy I did. It simply has stayed where it should be for all this time. Just place the risers with enough frequency to keep the roadbed level (12-16 inches). Where subroadbed sections joined, I firmed each joint underneath with more 3/4 ply extending at least 6" each side of the joint. The 3/4" was also great for superelevation: I angled the risers and force-screwed the subroadbed onto the angled risers (pilot hole necessary), giving a nice, gradual transition.

Just beware that each piece of 3/4" ply has a slightly different thickness that is significant if you want truly smooth track. I measured carefully with dial calipers to either match ends or make compensation at joints with shimmies and adjusted riser height on one side of the joint. 3/4" ply versus stock lumber also allows you to cut larger segments of curves in one swoop, as long as you can resign yourself to losing some wood, although the "scrap" sections can be used for the risers and other projects.

[Anonymous]

Hi!
Don't know how many will read this, but, I have used 3/4 plywood on a award winning modular layout. For the record, I would not use anything else. Sure, you have to get a decent grade of plywood. Does not have to be cabinet grade but should be BC exterior glue or better. If you are carefull drilling the proper size hole for the screw being used, you can drill into the edge of the plywood without any problem. That having been said, one must be carefull not to use anything larger than a number 8 diameter screw. Also the screw must be at least 1 1/2 inches long. 2 inches is better. Again, must be carefull
to drill the proper diameter hole at least 1 1/2 inches deep for the 2 inch screw. This layout was taken up and down many times without any damage to the table structure. My table was an L girder design. Glue was used
where the two pieces joined to form the L.
Anyone interested is free to contact me by email at [e-mail].
I would be pleased to share my experiences.
Tfox65

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tfox60

Hi!
Don't know how many will read this, but, I have used 3/4 plywood on a award winning modular layout. For the record, I would not use anything else. Sure, you have to get a decent grade of plywood. Does not have to be cabinet grade but should be BC exterior glue or better. If you are carefull drilling the proper size hole for the screw being used, you can drill into the edge of the plywood without any problem. That having been said, one must be carefull not to use anything larger than a number 8 diameter screw. Also the screw must be at least 1 1/2 inches long. 2 inches is better. Again, must be carefull
to drill the proper diameter hole at least 1 1/2 inches deep for the 2 inch screw. This layout was taken up and down many times without any damage to the table structure. My table was an L girder design. Glue was used
where the two pieces joined to form the L.
Anyone interested is free to contact me by email at [e-mail].
I would be pleased to share my experiences.
Tfox65

Reads fine to me.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by tfox60

Hi!
Don't know how many will read this, but, I have used 3/4 plywood on a award winning modular layout. For the record, I would not use anything else. Sure, you have to get a decent grade of plywood. Does not have to be cabinet grade but should be BC exterior glue or better. If you are carefull drilling the proper size hole for the screw being used, you can drill into the edge of the plywood without any problem. That having been said, one must be carefull not to use anything larger than a number 8 diameter screw. Also the screw must be at least 1 1/2 inches long. 2 inches is better. Again, must be carefull
to drill the proper diameter hole at least 1 1/2 inches deep for the 2 inch screw. This layout was taken up and down many times without any damage to the table structure. My table was an L girder design. Glue was used
where the two pieces joined to form the L.
Anyone interested is free to contact me by email at [e-mail].
I would be pleased to share my experiences.
Tfox65

Reads fine to me.

Useful, practical, information. It really answers my questions about how to build that way sucessfully. It seems that the plywood should be much more stable that 1x lumber would be, and quite possibly cheaper besides. Thanks for posting!

Jeff

While we are pondering, what about MDF ripped into strips? That might be even more dimensionally stable, and pretty easy to work with. Heavier, I imagine. Might make a nice flat platform, too. I don't think it would cookie cutter very well, though. What do you guys think?

[grayfox1119]

I have 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood ready to go as soon as I can get some free time from yardwork and garden, and repairs, etc.. I plan to use foam on top of the plywood as a sub-base for the track and scenery build-up. I too want to be able to place a knee on the top with full body weight without worrying about warping, bending or breaking something other than me.

[mrunyan]

A really good way to join 3/4 ply or any 3/4 stock for that matter is a Kreg jig. It puts an angled pocket in one piece and then you drive the right thread screw (fine thread for hardwood, coarse thread for soft) into the butting face of the second piece. You only pocket the one part with a Kreg and not both like with a biscuit. So it does not have to align when you dab the seam with glue and drive the screw. It is so strong and the pocket can be on the inner surfaces of the benchwork leaving no visible fasteners on the outside. On the subject of steel, until it gets a kink in the webbing it sure is light and strong, but lose the integrity of the webbing and it's about as stable as a tape measure. I've never handled the stuff without getting cut and duct tape only lasts so long before it dries out and falls off and the dried glue dust goes everywhere. Don't stop experimenting though and luck to all.

[mrunyan]

MDF in most cases I believe, outgases formaldehyde (from the glue that holds all the sawdust grains together), which can agrivate conditions in people with athsma. And it is only stable vertically and when supported along its base, like a bookcase side, as shelves, it will sag over the years, especially under load. I'd like to hear about long term sag stability in gator board, it's basically foamed styrene?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwar

Hi Chip.
Being that you have the construction experience behind you, good bracing practices, and wood working skills, I would strongley suggest go for it with Kiln lumber. Save the steel prices and get rolling stock with what you save.

I think where some go wrong with wood frames is the proplems caused by using a hammer and shaking it to death, use verious lenghts of drywall screws, battery screw driver, miter saw, perhaps another 1/4 drill with a relief counterbore drill and I bet with your stated skills, You probley have the tools to do it now...it's a two day job and your laying track next monday.

Besides were not supporting a great amount of weight on top of the layout, over kill is good to a point, then it gets priceeeeeeie..take care...John

Thought the MR article stated that steel was cheaper?

Also the support issue would comeinto pplay if you are using a lot of plaster in a mountain type layout, some HO engines, can get up there in weight, also I remember seeing photos of some guys working on their layouts and actually on top the benchwork. So not sure what to think.

I used 2X2's and 1X3's for the edging. No nailing, strictly pre-drilled and screwed/ Seems pretty solid, but I used blue foam for the base of the layout, also doing N scale has a definate weight advantage.

[hdbob]

ok my 2 cents on this subject, im in process of desiging a layout and i found the steel studs to be of intrest, as luck would have it they are sheetrocking a room where i work , using steel studs but they are 1-5/8th inches equal to a 2x2 talked to guys installing them they gave me some tips ,
1.. go with heavier grade 20 guage
2... use fine point sheet rock screws dont have to pre drill
3 ... you can find them at most places that sell sheetrock (homedepot only carries 2x4 cheap grade, i know i used to work there) a good lumber yardor sheet rock supply yard
4.. all you need is tin snips to cut (good pair dont go cheap)
5.. they have holes for wiring built in (use grommets)

[Anonymous]

Chip Do you not remember being at my house and seeing the layout built completly out of furring strips. Dry wall screws and all so well. Made cross braces on standard 16" spacing and have had no problem with warp or sags. Uprights are also made from the furring and then plywood underlaymant and cork on top of that. Then you can level it all as you are layiing the plywood. Using many C clamps to hold uprights and using level to make it right. Elevations become simpler as the wood only bends so much at a time. Easier transitions for gradiing. Layout been in use for 20+ years. Can stand on it as it has plenty of strength. Need to come out again sometime to really look at the framing. B.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bw1242

Chip Do you not remember being at my house and seeing the layout built completly out of furring strips. Dry wall screws and all so well. Made cross braces on standard 16" spacing and have had no problem with warp or sags. Uprights are also made from the furring and then plywood underlaymant and cork on top of that. Then you can level it all as you are layiing the plywood. Using many C clamps to hold uprights and using level to make it right. Elevations become simpler as the wood only bends so much at a time. Easier transitions for gradiing. Layout been in use for 20+ years. Can stand on it as it has plenty of strength. Need to come out again sometime to really look at the framing. B.

Barry,

I don't remember a thing about your benchwork. I was so new to model railroading at the time, I could only think, "Wow!" Couple that with trying to get my daughter's engine to run on OO share with Dan. I'd love another look.

[Anonymous]

Ladies & Gentlemen;

[Anonymous]

Some random Thoughts on bench work. First steel studs, if you want to use them it is easy enough to find. Go to the yellow pages and look under drywall suppliers. they carry steel studs. also steel studs are easy to work with. you will need a good pair of tin snips to cut them, a screew gun or variable soeed drill with a magnetic philps bit to set the screws. By the way the screws are self taping. You will also need spring clamps. they are used to hold the framing together while you are screwing the joint together. Truthfully working with 25ga steel stud is very easy, all it takes is a little fooling around with the stuf to get the hang of it. On the down side, I have a problem with potential shorts in the layout wiring being groun to the steel frame and end up having to spend weeks trying to isolate on sinple short. ( any one have thoughts on that as I am no expert.
Second, when using plywood, go with a good grade, say BC 5-ply minimum should give you a good quality material. second you can make your own I-Beam by screwing and glueing a web on the top and bottom. One thing I do, if I need to rip staight pieces from the plyood and do not have a table saw. First I make a straight edge by screwing a piece of 1X2 the length of an 12"wide by 8"-0" piece of 1/2" plywood along the 8 foot length, leaving leaving aproximatle 10.5" exposed. Next ( right hand people, lefties opposite) I cut the plywood holding the saw base tight to the 1X2 on the right side of the saw. once this saw jig is made, you clamp the jig to the sheet good you want to cut. Laying the jigs right edge on the oencil line. thus you know exactly where on the line the blade will cut to. this should give you nice straight cuts effortlessly.

Lou R.

[CraigN]

Chip,
I am building my railroad with wooden I-Beams made from 1/2 inch plywood for the benchwork and legs and 1/2 inch plywood for the subroadbed.

Here is a link to some photos:

http://www.nscale.net/mod-photoshare-showimages-fid-263.html



I had other pics showing benchwork construction, but I removed them to make room for current progress.

[Don Gibson]

I second CARRfan's recommendation to look at master modeler David Barrow's ideas on benchwork: solid, strong and reconfigurable.

He uses cabinet grade sheet's of 3/4" ply ripped into tops, sides, and end's to make free standing 4' modules on 2X2 legs that screw together to form a system of walk-along layout and aisleway's that' are realistic as well as reusable for any future use

I'm sure 'cabinet' grade birch will be a turnoff for you because of cost,but you only have to build them once. Every 'L'girder layout I've ever built had to be reduced to lumber to move or rebuild.

The only improvement over Barrow's bechwork 'domino's I woul make is 2" of foam on top of the ply allowing riverbed's, bridges, culvert's, etc. beneath the elevated trackage.

[hdbob]

lourjr
they make a "grommet/bushing" that is placed in hole of steel stud, it allows you to pass wires thru and stop the rubing of wires, a must dofor all wiring!
an electrial supply will have them