Electric Bill for large layout

[blueriver]

Hi,
I am designing a small 20'x14' basement layout. There are no plugs or light switches right now and only 2 pull chain lights. I want to put in some framing and add electrical boxes for my part of the basement. Here are the questions I have:
1) What size of breakers do I need to add to my Electrical Panel to supply me with light boxes, light switches, and plugs for all my electrical needs in the train room?
2) What does a large layout do to your electric bill? Do you notice a jump in the amount or is it so small you don't see much of a change?

I really appreciate your input.

Thanks
blueriver

[nfmisso]

On the electrical wiring, it has to be to code, and inspected by the local inspector. If you don't do this, your home insurance is basically voided. As you are asking this question, you need to either hire a licensed electrician, or expend the time and effort to learn house wiring. Home Depot and similar stores have books on this.

The lights for the room consume more power than the trains do.

[Virginian]

Nigel's advice is excellent. One more thing, electricity is dangerous, so be careful around that junction box.

[jrbernier]

A couple of points:

1> If you do not know how to do residential wiring, get someone who does. In my area one does not need an electrician or an inspection permit if the wiring is from the 'box' to the room. Other areas of different codes.
2> My layout has a 20 amp circuit that is split with a pair of wall switches. The first switch controls the lighting(8 fluoresent fixtures). The second switch controls the 'layout' area; I ran duplex outlets every 6 feet below the layout, and this powers the 2 Digitrax 5 amp boosters, the a spray booth, some high inteasity lamps at the work bench, and a host of 'wall wart' power supplies.

Jim Bernier

[tigerstripe]

My layout is 10X16 not really large but I run 2-3 trains 20-30 minutes of continuous operation about 4 days a week and have noticed my electric bill has gone up maybe $5/month. Don't know if that is the trains or just inflation.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually some states allow homeowners to do their own wiring, under permit of course. You will need to check the rules in your state.

Since you are asking, I suspect you have little or no experience. If you find out that it is legal for you to do your own wiring, and decide to take on the project, keep in mind that the inspector will expect you to have some knowledge, though he will also be helpful and push you in the right direction.

For the lights, you may not even need a new circuit, depending what else is on the one from which they draw their power. Simply installing a switch may not even need a permit, usually permits only come into play when adding breakers.

Outlets should be on a new circuit. A 15 or 20 Amp should be enough for your layout, but depending on the size of the sapce you may want to add 2 circuits as long as you are taking out a permit. If you think you are going to do this yourself, and have no experience, I suggest you go to your local home improvement store and pick up one of many books on the subject.

By the way, like Nigel, I live in Minnesota where it is perfectly legal for homeowners to do their own electrical work. I wired my entire home, almost 9000 square feet. It was a huge permit with lots of inspections, and took a long time. I even did the service entrance, heavy duty stuff for a 300 amp service. I've done work on every home I've lived in, and they are all still standing.

Model trains will not make much of a difference in your electric bill. Amps at the wall are much bigger than amps on the layout. This is because the voltage on the layout is 10 - 20% of line voltage. A 5 amp power supply for your trains would draw about 1 amp from the wall, due to the voltage stepdown.

[ClinchValleySD40]

Not sure about how much electricity it uses. Since it is all on the same bill, I've never paid attention to any jump since I've started. There are some things it's best not to know.

[blueriver]

Hi,
Thanks for all the replies. I do have some knowledge about wiring and a brother who is an electrical contractor. The real question is: I have never had a complete layout so I am not entirely familiar with how much power is required for a layout. Things like the power pack/transformer, layout lighting and other layout electrical needs, while running trains. I know I need a big enough circuit breaker so I don't trip the breaker but I also know I shouldn't have too big of a breaker or over time the amount of electricity in the wires will cook them and become a fire hazard. So how much electricity does the layout require?

Thanks
blueriver

[MidlandPacific]

I just had a contractor rewire my house, which was originally wired in 1923. When I started, it had no local ground lines, and LOTS of gutta-percha insulation. I had them wire the basement specifically to accomodate the model railroad. They ran the lighting and the outlets on different circuits; not at home now, but if memory serves, they ran twenty-amp breakers for the four outlets. I only needed two for dual-cab control, but I had them install four, so I have some room for expansion if I want to power lighting or switch machines. A few extra outlets also come in handy for power tools.

My experience has been that even my Mallets seldom draw three amps when pulling on a grade, so the twenty-amp circuits have been more than adequate.

[Anonymous]

For your layout, here are a few things from another post / question......

10 locomotives each pulling 20 lighted passenger cars with lighted street lights all around can barely come to 300 watts of load. Easily served by an outlet.

On to the lighting side: You can easily hit 1000 watts to make a layout well-lit. Flourescents cost less to operate, but give a different color and cannot be dimmed. I've got 500 watts on mine to start off with, and will likely add more down the road.

Mark in Utah

[colin_mcleod]

My layout 18 ft x 9 ft in a loft was supplied by one 13 Amp plug. The flourescent lights used about 200 watts, the railway about 100 watts and the electric heater about 2,000 watts. Total current at 240 volts is 9.5 amps. I would ignore the cost of the electricity the railway uses. It is less than the heater and if you wern't warming your railway room, you would be warming somewhere else instead.

The previous advise about doing the wiring properly is very sound.
Have fun. [:D]

[radioandrail]

Somebody said above that amps on the layout are different from amps at the outlet. While true that the actual current draw may be different, there are different voltage levels occurring. So the main thing is the power consumption. Power= Voltage x Current. So, 1 Amp at 120 Volts = 120 watts. 6 Amps at 20 Volts also equals 120 Watts. There are efficiencies to take into account also, so a final power consumption on the layout of 120 Watts may be like 150 watts at the outlet. A 20 amp outlet at 120 volts could supply 2400 watts but probably less to give a safety factor. A lot of "stuff" can be run on a layout before you run into a problem with an overload. Have fun!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Blueriver, cooking wires in the wall should never be an issue.

Unless you have a special device that needs power such as an oven, normal household circuits are either 15 or 20 amps. The size of wire is what ultimately determines how much current can be allowed. If you wire with 14 gauge, the limit is 15 amps, period. If you move up to the larger 12 gauge wire then 20 amps is the limit, however you could still use the smaller 15 amp breaker for added safety. I wired my entire house with 12 gauge wire as the minimum, though many of my circuits are only 15 amp. If I ever found that 15 amps was not enough for any room, I could safely and legally change to the 20 amp breaker. A very unlikely scenario.

Someone stated earlier that lighting will be the bigger consumer of electricity for your layout. That is absolutely true. The trains themselves are just a drop in the bucket.

[ClinchValleySD40]

I'm running on seven 15 amp breakers. 4 of them control 50 single tube florescents, plenty of power. The basement had two breakers already in each controlling outlets around the outside walls, to which all layout power comes from.

If you want to know how much your layout is going to take, you'll need to answer some questions. How many power supplies will you be using, current draw on each? How many locos running at any one time (ties into first question). If you can figure out your plan, you should be able to determine how much power you'll need. We can't answer if we don't know exactly what you'll be doing.

[ben10ben]

Unless you have a monstrously huge layout, the trains themselves probably draw less current than your T.V. when plugged in but not turned on. The cost of running trains really is insignificant.

What others have said regarding lightling and other layout-associated paraphenalia is very true, though.

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

By the way, like Nigel, I live in Minnesota where it is perfectly legal for homeowners to do their own electrical work. I wired my entire home, almost 9000 square feet. It was a huge permit with lots of inspections, and took a long time. I even did the service entrance, heavy duty stuff for a 300 amp service. I've done work on every home I've lived in, and they are all still standing.

Hi;

Please re-read my post, I did not say that one could not do house wiring, I said that it has to be inspected, and that one should study before attempting to do it. I wired a previous house in MN, and will be wiring our current lower level and adding circuits in the garage for power tools and more lights.

[canazar]

I have no idea about the jusice involved in running the trains, but here some first hand experience om what the lights might take...

Im my shop I run 10x 8 foot florucent light with 8x 4 lights in the office. Also, one more of the those floruecent replacement bulbs outside which is on even more.

Average run time for all the lights, 45-60 hours per week. My guess is the there total draw is around 10-15 dollars a month.


Hope that helps.

John k

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nfmisso

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

By the way, like Nigel, I live in Minnesota where it is perfectly legal for homeowners to do their own electrical work. I wired my entire home, almost 9000 square feet. It was a huge permit with lots of inspections, and took a long time. I even did the service entrance, heavy duty stuff for a 300 amp service. I've done work on every home I've lived in, and they are all still standing.

Hi;

Please re-read my post, I did not say that one could not do house wiring, I said that it has to be inspected, and that one should study before attempting to do it. I wired a previous house in MN, and will be wiring our current lower level and adding circuits in the garage for power tools and more lights.

Sorry Nigel, I guess you and I are on the same page after all.[:I]

[colin_mcleod]

In case my post may have caused some confusion, the domestic supply in Ireland is 240 volts with 13amp sockets as standard. I understand from some of the postings here, that is it 120 volt in USA. However power(Watts) = volts x amps still applies, just change the numbers.

[cacole]

At the Cochise & Western Model Railroad Club we have two open houses each year, in May and November. Over a weekend running trains on both the 20x40 foot indoor layout and on an outdoor 16 foot square modular layout, with flourescent lights on throughout the building and two coffee pots and a crock pot, we never exceed the minimum electrical usage charged by the local utility. Your trains are going to draw minimal current due to the conversion of your mains power to low-voltage DC or DCC, as the case may be. Lights for the room will be more of a current draw than your layout.

[Anonymous]

As for electrical the cost of operating a layout:

Assuming 10 cents per KHW.....

300 watts for big layout, will run you something like $0.03 US per hour.
1000 watts for lighting (very well lit) $0.10 US per hour.

Now for the other charges......

Getting a hankering for a new steamer..... $75 to $1,000 per hour.....
Wanting to add to the cars, weathering, new scenery, buildings, $50 per hour....
Wathcing the wife read the bill for the whole thing..... priceless! Rund, duck & cover!!!

Mark in Utah

[Leon Silverman]

I had to get a permit to convert my garage to a train room. Code requirements dictated outlets spaced no more than 12 feet apart, meaning I had to have at least two outlets on each side of my 13.5 by 22 foot garage.
If you have a concrete floor, ground fault (GFI) protection is required. You can either use GFI circuit breaker or install a GFI outlet in the first outlet on a line fed by the circuit breaker (cheaper) to protect the entire line. Dedicated environmental circuits (air conditioners, refrigerators, electric heaters) should be single cuircuit.
Your train layout is going to require relatively little power, however, I would recommend wiring these wall outlets for 20 amp service (12 gauge) just in case you want to plug in a heavy duty power tool (rotary saw, nail gun air compressor, etc.)for temporary use.
Circuits feeding only your overhead lights can be 15 amp service (14 gauge wire). Just watch you total wattage consumption. A lot of small incandescent bulbs can add up to a large amount of wattage. Flourescent lamps can be on a single circuit. Otherwise, you would probably want to have two separate light circuits.
My garage already had a 240 volt power feed going into a separate circuit breaker box . Adding circuits to the room simply required installing additional curcuit breakers.
The feed was shut down from the main circuit breaker box in the house prior to adding the garage circuit breakers.