Grades: How much is too much?

[Anonymous]

On my new layout I want to have a pretty steep grade on the mainline. This will serve 2 purposes. It will limit train length and also add operations (im thinking helper service). Im planning on a 4% grade. Is that too steep? Should I go for something more in the 2.5% - 3% range. Keep in mind that I am quite aware of the widely accepted maximum of 2%. I want this to be a very steep grade.

thanks

[Anonymous]

I run my locomotives up grades as steep as 5.5% & don't have trouble. My
4-8-8-4 can handle a heavyweight 25 car train up a 55 without help. I run HO scale.

[Anonymous]

Sorry I wrote 55, I don't type good. (I ment a 5.0% grade)

[Anonymous]

OK, thanks. Thats what I was looking for. I'll be running either my 2 genesis 70MACs, a consist of three athearns that wiegh a pound each or just short locals. Shouldnt be a problem. Now I can get on with my design...

[Anonymous]

One Question:

How will you make it work scenically??? Steep grades can look pretty toy like. I might carefully consider this aspect before committing the plan to wax. I had a 5 + % grade on my last layout and it was hard to do convincing scenery around it.

My two cents,

[SpaceMouse]

I built a 3% grade and I had quite a few of my steamers that had a rough go of that grade. It depends a lot on what you are running.

[Anonymous]

May I suggest a sort of a S curve in your grade? Instead of a straight line from bottom to top try a curve using a very broad curve past a rocky cliff at the bottom run straight a few feet and then curve back around a more rounded and heavily forested hilltop.

Makes the train look like that it has to go around the blocking of nature while fighting for the top.

I have 3% grades on a friends layout to deal with and they are not too bad but need big power for those.

[rexhea]

Joe,
You may want to have temporary set up that you can test your loco's / consist on first. You may end up with only one or two that can make it without problems. Also, remember that if a curve is in the grade you will increase the drag of the loco and rolling stock, decreasing the amount of grade you can handle.
2.5% is about all my average loco and consist of 15 will handle with a curve and even then there is slippage.

REX

[twhite]

Well, there's always the prototypes. I think Saluda was 5%, I know Siskiyou Summit in southern Oregon is 3.7% and Tennessee Pass is 3%. I have a short section of 2.4% on my Yuba River Sub and it gives my Yellowstones a good testing, just about everything else has to be double-headed (I'm all steam). It's going to depend on what your motive power is, your curveature radius on the grade and whether or not the grade is constant, or interrupted. And remember, anything but double-heading is going to be tricky, especially if you decide on mid-train helpers or pushers. I had a section of 3% descending grade for a while, until I found out that long trains were buckling on the curves. I finally had to tear it out and install a longer section of 2%. What it probably boils down to is just how long you plan on having that 4% grade and what your curve radius (if any) is going to be on it, because if you run too long a train, the very weight of the train in HO scale just might derail it. Just to play it safe, I'd keep the 4% straight and short.
Tom [:D]

[selector]

May I add my two cents' worth? I am using a little P2K 0-6-0 to take ore cars up a 3.6% grade across my field of view from the controller. It passes under a trestle on the way up, and then into a tunnel at the far side of the layout. It then spirals up to the very trestle it had passed under on the way up, but that trestle is actually a spur-end at a mine. There are only three bents, and the rail ends at the third bent out, with a stopper. Cars are pushed out onto this trestle, and then pulled in, one-by-one, to get filled from a hopper at the mine on the side of the mountain. (I hope I haven't confused)

Anyway, most western North American railways had/have grades of varying degrees. Some just had to be at, or near, 4%. So they used pushers on the way up. In BC, very long coal trains that ran from the west of the Province to the coast, during the 70's and 80's, ran so that one end of the train was trying to run down the far side of a hill on a downward grade and the other was being pushed up it from the back ! Naturally, couplers broke until they learned to have the downward loco brake slightly to keep the train from separating.

My 3.6% looks to me to be at, or past, the limit where the layout begins to look toylike. My suggestion is to keep it below 4% if you can.

As for the S-curve, I had to have one on the way to the passed-under trestle, but all of the experts will tell you that the real trains don't like 'em, and neither will your model. Mine works, but only because my 0-6-0 is required to shunt two ore cars at a time.

[Anonymous]

mac 4884

What big boy are you running up that 5% grade? I have a Trix and can barely pull 8 forty foot NMRA weighted boxcars cars up a 4% on 22" radius!!!! It will just barely pull 4 Rivarossi Streamline passenger cars up the same grade! Gets near the top and just spins!!!! The Trx will pull 40+ cars on the level. My Rivarossi 4-6-6-4 with traction tires can only pull 16 cars up the same curving grade.

My new layout will have a maximum 2.5% to aleviate the serious slippage.

[CP5415]

I'm using a 4% grade for a branch line I have.
I wouldn't go steeper than that.
My mainline I have some 3.5% grades & an Athearn SD40-2 hauling 20 cars had no problem with it. Mind you the 20 cars all had metal wheels!

I guess "too much" would be more than what you want it to be!

I'm happy with the grades on my layout.
Not one is the same & all 4 have to be treated differently which to me is cool since the engineer has to be on his toes to make sure his train doesn't stall going up or go too fast on the way down since all my grades involve curves.

Gordon

[trainboyH16-44]

Just 2 words: Helper Engines
Adding helper facilities will help keep those trains moving.
Trainboy

[Anonymous]

up_santafe I own a rivrossi 4-8-8-4 dated 1979, & yet it runs great. Now in full scale feet
the grade is 1.5 feet long. How can I tell it's a 5.0% grade you might ask ? For every
HO scale foot up there is 5 HO scale feet horizantly. Steep but interesting, but also I
have to use heavyweight freight cars, because the lightweight cars derail.

[Anonymous]

By the way I dont have rubber traction tires. All of my wheels are have pure metal

[Anonymous]

mac 4884

My grade is a bit longer than 1.5 feet. It's about 6 feet in length on a 22 inch radius. I suppose my Trix would do fine on a shorter grade!

[selector]

Just to add again, When I first tried running my 0-6-0 up inclines to test it, my grades were not nice and smooth. Similarly, during the development of that 3.6% I mentioned in my ealrier post, there were times when the little fells just spun its drivers. I quickly learned that it didn't like changes in grade from one section of track to another. The front driver would lift the middle one off the tracks, and my traction was thereby reduced by 33%.

So, make sure your grade is very close to constant, and also check for clean track and wheels. Remember, too, that curves add a grade equivalency to the work required of the loco. The sharper the curve on a grade, the worse it is for the hauler/pusher.

[Fergmiester]

My main Line is 5% maximum, which is on a superelvated 26" radius curve. Most of my engines will run this without much slip or problems. I just have to know what engine is capable of hauling what load. Every car is now fitted with steel wheels to reduce friction. My Allegheny, Challenger, FEF-3 will haul 70+ up this grade. Child like? HECK NO! Trees and rock faces take care of that.

Unfortunately The grades do present problems for light engines or engines with poor tractive effort. These ones either haul light loads or land up as double headed consists.

I have one spurline with an 8% grade on a 18" radius curve. The majority of engines can't climb this so this line is reserved for heavy Consolidated's and Articulated x-6-6-x type engines. Double heading does work in this situation, however Helper service (behind the caboose) leads to spectacular derailments. To take away from the un-natural look of this I've hidden part of it in a rock cut which will be heavily wooded.

Regards
Fergie

[Anonymous]

My engines should have no problem with the grade. But you've got me worried about it looking "toylike" What do you mean exactly? does the track really look that steep?

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: But you've got me worried about it looking "toylike" What do you mean exactly? does the track really look that steep?

Everyone has their own idea, so "toylike", as "beauty" could be considered to be in the eye of the beholder. I think that decent scenery goes a long way to making even steep hills look possible. My layout is in progress, but even with the partial scenery that I have, I'm satisfied that my hills look okay. And my grades are right up there with what you're planning.

Toylike?? My layout does a twice around on a door only 3' x 6'-8". Unless I get down so my eyes are at track level I can see the whole thing in one glance. Give me a break, "toylike" steep grades are the least of my worries in trying to make my layout look halfway plausible. [swg]

Of course, I'm the only one that needs to be satisfied with my layout. [:D]


Regards

Ed

[selector]

Yes, perhaps I should have used the word "realistic" instead of toylike. My knowledge is limited, but I believe that only specialized engines could get up real-life grades steeper than, say, 4-5%. So, I would caution, if I can use that term, against grades above 4% if you are using conventional engines (as opposed to Climaxes, Shays, articulated, etc).

Of course, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. If only a 5.5% will get you the track plan you'd like in the space you have, then do it by all means, and enjoy the heck out of it! In the end, you should like what you see.

[Anonymous]

Joe,

The toylike issue comes up when the grade is seen next to objects that are level. Buildings are hard to put next to a steep grade because either the building looks out of plumb or the grade looks real steep. Another situation is where there is another level track above the grade or below it where the eye can see both at the same time. This will make the steep grade look "funny".

As other posters have pointed out, this is a subjective issue. I had steep grades on my last layout and am keeping to the 2% rule on my new one because of the toylike issue...

While others have mentioned that the prototype did occasionally go steeper than 2%, it was rare for class1 railroads to have much real steep trackage (I know there are exceptions, but most are in the 2.5% range, not 5%)). I think that when you see a model with real steep grades, you reference back to what you have seen on the prototype ( mostly flat or slight grades) and the incongruency causes the scene to read a little toylike. This particularly true if the equipment seen was was used on flatter grades on the prototype. Shays, etc. will look more at home on steep stuff than big mainline steam....

This is something you might want to experiment with and see how it looks to you...

[Fergmiester]

I think if you take the time to do good transitions and easements this will go a long way and add the realism you're looking for.

Fergie

[CP5415]

One thing I plan on doing with my mainline is hide most of the curves & grades using scenery.
Mostly with trees but also with rock formations.

Gordon

[Anonymous]

Well lets see. there are no buildings in the area where I would put the grade, but there is a level track just to the inside of where it would be. The grade isn't necessary to get my track plan, it is just for operations interest.

[Anonymous]

Alto Pass Hill, the ruling grade on my 'idealized' GM&O has a minimum 26 inch radius 5.0% compensated grade northbound for 70 1:1 scale feet as it travels from the lower to upper deck. Curves are gently eased parabolas with decreasing equivelent radius from 72" to 26" per an old (1960's) Lynn Wescott Formula. (26" is John Armstrong Minimum for passenger train op in HO.) Vertical curves do not exccede 600 scale feet (construction required templates) I am able to haul a 9 foot train uphill with 3 P2K FAs or Athern Fs (but use 4 it looks better).
Regarding scenery, since no other tracks are visible I intentionally created an aprox. 2% southbound grade, to lessen the effect of the hill. ( I have also created 'scenic hills using a false ground reference where I needed flat terrain for operating reasons butt wanted to convey a sence of undulating terrain.

[JohnT14808]

Hm-m-m-m-m. This discussion has me reviewing my choice of layout...once again. I am considering using the Drago & East Ridge Ry from the January 1961 issue of MR. It is also shown on pages 74-75 in the Basic Model Railroading book from Kalmbach Publishing.

It's a nice twice around, but has serious(?) grades. The write up that accompanies either article does not give a grade, but the layout shows an elevation of 1/2 inch at one point and about 4.5 feet down the track with an 18 inch curve to the left it shows an elevation of 3 inches. So, how steep is that? Let's see....up 2.5 inches in about 4 feet...... shoot....6.25%?? Am I figuring this right?

I have always been intrigued by this layout and I keep coming back to it, so it'll probably be THE one, once I get started.

[soumodeler]

On my old layout, there was a 8% grade on a 18" radius curve to get up to a mine. An Atlas GP38 would only pull three properly weighted hoppers up that grade. It was a living nightmare. That and badly laid track were the reasons for the destruction of that layout. I am planning a new layout with 4% mainline grades, with helper operations, and stagging with 3% and 4% grades. Which leads me to my question.

This layout is only 7x12 feet and I want to have stagging. There is only room for a single ended yard on both sides (the layout is a walk-in). There will be four trains with five tracks on the side with the 4% grade. They will leave there and travers the layout using helpers and go down the 3% into stagging. Once all four trains are across the layout, the "operating session" is over, and the trains are backed up the 3%, the loco goes around the train at a siding immediatly after entering the layout, and then at a siding just before the entrance to the other stagging yard, runs back around and backs down, ready for the next "session". Ok, how many people did I lose there?

My question is will the trains be able to negotiate the grade backwards. All cars have Kadee couplers and most metal wheels. There will be no more than 10 cars in each train, and all are properly weighted. And the final obstacle: the grade has a 24" radius curve at the top. Will it work?

Another thing I thought of was a drop-down fiddle table using "cassettes" to move the locomotives to the fifth track and run around the trains and then go back to the other side?

I know it's long, but I need help on this one.

soumodeler
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