Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

HO Flatcar Load - How much weight is generally too much?

2724 views
11 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 39 posts
HO Flatcar Load - How much weight is generally too much?
Posted by davefr on Sunday, December 24, 2023 8:28 AM

I have an Athearn 40' flatcar with Kadee trucks/couplers. I plan to use an old weathered 0-4-0 steam engine as the load.  The flatcar weighs about 3 oz. but the old steamer weighs about 5+ oz. with a vertical motor.

NMRA says 4 oz is optimal but I'll be double that at 8 oz.  

I'm not worried about traction from the locomotives/grades but do you see any issues having that much weight and some of it top heavy from the upright motor? Would I be better off removing the old motor from the steamer to get the weight down?

TIA 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2018
  • From: Douglas AZ.
  • 635 posts
Posted by Little Timmy on Sunday, December 24, 2023 8:38 AM

Yea, I would remove the motor and anything else not seen by human eyes.

Get the weight down as best as you can. 

Also, it's going to be top heavy no matter what you do, so secure it to the flatcar to prevent the load from shifting.

I did something similar,  but I built the locomotive from scratch. I used wood for the cab, and a wooden dowel for the boiler. It was nice and light.

 

Rust...... It's a good thing !

  • Member since
    May 2010
  • From: SE. WI.
  • 8,253 posts
Posted by mbinsewi on Sunday, December 24, 2023 8:46 AM

Set it on the car, and see how it works, before you strap it down as a load.  You might have to tighten up the trucks so it doesn't wobble back and forth.

The only way to know is to try it.

Prototypically I think it would work, as I think the 40' wood deck flat car had a payload capacity of about 80,000 lbs.

Mike.

  • Member since
    March 2002
  • From: Milwaukee WI (Fox Point)
  • 11,439 posts
Posted by dknelson on Sunday, December 24, 2023 12:28 PM

I agree with doing what you can to reduce the weight of this interesting load.  Not so much due to overall weight but because it is placing the center of gravity so high.

All of us have had the experience that there is a degfee of forgiveness in most weight standards.  You simply cannot always match NMRA recommended weight standards with many empty open cars such as flats, gons and hoppers, and yet if whatever weight they have is down low for center of gravity, they usually run just fine. 

I mentioned NMRA weight standard but ditto for whatever weight standard you yourself arrive at -- the point being a consistent and logical weight standard.  The point to NMRA weight standards is they "work" and enable you to interchange your cars with other modelers, and with luck newly acquired cars are already to NMRA standards.  But there is no magic rightness to NMRA weight standards per se. 

Whatever the standards, every once in a while the chance combination of cars that do not meet weight standards results in an unhappy derailment.

You might want to take a page out of the prototype's book for special loads and that is run them as a dedicated train rather than in mixed freights.  Such loads often have idler flats at either end to add braking power to the train. 

There are also some loads which are placed nearer the locomotive in a mixed freight train.  The idea is to put the greatest weight near the locomotive rather than near the end of the train where it would create stresses on the entire train.  I seen to recall "dead" locomotives (on their own wheels) are usually located close to the head end of a train for this reason.

Dave Nelson

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: A Comfy Cave, New Zealand
  • 6,250 posts
Posted by "JaBear" on Sunday, December 24, 2023 2:50 PM
I use the NMRA RP-20.1 as my weight standard, though as a reminder, before some ffolkes get twisted over this issue, RP-20.1 is a recommended practice! After all, doctorwaynes “live” coal loads are twice the recommended weight and he reports no adverse effects.
 
As already mentioned by Tim and Dave I’d also remove the motor from the locomotive just to lower the centre of gravity.
 
I would also use Mikes check for any truck wobble.
 
Have Fun.
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: AU
  • 713 posts
Posted by xdford on Sunday, December 24, 2023 6:52 PM

mbinsewi

...

Prototypically I think it would work, as I think the 40' wood deck flat car had a payload capacity of about 80,000 lbs.

Mike.

 

 
Old steamers were usually towed minus the connecting rods over any distance to their final resting place whether that be a park or the scrapyard.  Using the idea that 5oz x 87 cubed would equal well over 200000 lbs if scaled up, you would not exactly be prototypical and well over the weight limit unless it was say a balloon stack 4-4-0 and well within clearance and relatively light. In real life, a flat car may well take such a stress under such a load that its steel side frames will crystallize and crack under the strain.
 
The heaviness of the iron is part of the reason that iron ore cars are shorter to limit the load and why gondolas loaded with scrap loads that barely cover the floor of the gon are common on the prototype becuse a gondola full of steel would crack!
 
However it is YOUR railroad and I am not trying to nitpick your choice of loads but there are others who will.  Being where I am, I am not likely to ever see it.  For myself,  I have a CN FA in Green and Gold which would not likely have met a GP40LW in real life but my two frequently cross. The FA has hauled an ONR Blue and Yellow box car and time inappropriate pieces but most of my viewers would not know. 
 
One day, I will set up enough so I can run a variety of eras truer to the mark over a period of time... but that is long term!
 
Cheers from Australia
 
Trevor
 
 
  • Member since
    October 2020
  • 39 posts
Posted by davefr on Monday, December 25, 2023 7:24 AM

Thanks for the replies.  I was able to reduce the weight by 2 oz and lowered the center of gravity.  

  • Member since
    September 2014
  • From: 10,430’ (3,179 m)
  • 2,311 posts
Posted by jjdamnit on Monday, December 25, 2023 1:33 PM

Hello All,

Just a thought...

Have you considered using a depressed center flat car to reduce the center of gravity of the locomotive?

Walther's produced an HO 81' 8-axle depressed center flat car (unfortunately now discontinued) available on eBay.

The lower deck is 26' long and each end has a 10' platform. The depth of the lower platform is 3' from the two ends.

I have a HO Model Power Lil' Donkey 0-4-0T steamer that fits the lower deck with the couplers removed.

ClassOne Model Works makes a 6-axle car with a 21' lower deck.

You could use some creative blocking of the wheels to raise the height of the locomotive so the ends clear the upper decking if needed.

Bachmann produced a Heavy Duty 6-axle flat car with a log load (again, discontinued) available on eBay for much less than the Walther's 8-axle depressed center car.

I recall seeing photos of steam locomotives transported on flatcars with the wheels removed.

Since you have removed components to lighten the load I'm presuming removing the wheels would not be an issue.

I don't know how much you want to "scrap" this locomotive.

The wheels could be transported with the side rods intact on the 40' flat car. 

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 327 posts
Posted by AEP528 on Monday, December 25, 2023 7:41 PM

xdford
 
Old steamers were usually towed minus the connecting rods over any distance to their final resting place whether that be a park or the scrapyard.  Using the idea that 5oz x 87 cubed would equal well over 200000 lbs if scaled up, you would not exactly be prototypical and well over the weight limit unless it was say a balloon stack 4-4-0 and well within clearance and relatively light. In real life, a flat car may well take such a stress under such a load that its steel side frames will crystallize and crack under the strain.
 

 
There is absolutely no relation between the weight of a model and the real locomotive. It does not scale in the way you state.
 
Narrow gauge locomotives were often shipped on flatcars for the obvious reason.
 
Today there are a few operational, restored 0-4-0 locomotives that travel to tourist railroads on semi-trailers. Those trailers are suprisingly not as heavy-duty as one would think; pictures show Flagg Coal 75 on a trailer with only three axles. The tractor also had three rear axles. Wikipedia says that #75 (which is a tank locomotive) weighs 82,000 pounds (see my first comment regarding scaling weight).
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: AU
  • 713 posts
Posted by xdford on Tuesday, December 26, 2023 2:57 AM

AEP528

 

 
xdford
 
Old steamers were usually towed minus the connecting rods over any distance to their final resting place whether that be a park or the scrapyard.  Using the idea that 5oz x 87 cubed would equal well over 200000 lbs if scaled up, you would not exactly be prototypical and well over the weight limit unless it was say a balloon stack 4-4-0 and well within clearance and relatively light. In real life, a flat car may well take such a stress under such a load that its steel side frames will crystallize and crack under the strain.
 
 

 

 
There is absolutely no relation between the weight of a model and the real locomotive. It does not scale in the way you state.
 
Narrow gauge locomotives were often shipped on flatcars for the obvious reason.
 
Today there are a few operational, restored 0-4-0 locomotives that travel to tourist railroads on semi-trailers. Those trailers are suprisingly not as heavy-duty as one would think; pictures show Flagg Coal 75 on a trailer with only three axles. The tractor also had three rear axles. Wikipedia says that #75 (which is a tank locomotive) weighs 82,000 pounds (see my first comment regarding scaling weight).
 

 

I don't know what size loco the OP intends to put on the flat car and a small prototype engine may well fit on a flat car and be within load constraints. A check of USRA engine weights on Google showed the USRA 0-6-0  - not the tender - weighed 165,000 lbs.  I have one of those as a Proto model and the engine on our kitchen scale weighed about 5 ozs in round figures, vix twice the weight limit printed on the side of an Athearn 40ft Flat. 

Of course as you state, the loco is not scaled down mechanically not can it be. Electric motors, plastic shells and lead weights do not scale down a set of boiler tubes, a firebox, lagging, siderods etc and I only ever use the 87 cubed as a gauge but it has served me well enough.  I mainly use it to assess traction and one of my locos with 2oz of drawbar pull = about 90,000 lbs of tractive effort. Pretty powerful but the drag of model freight cars is much higher than the real thing so the trains even if I could fit true length in would not be as long. 

I have also seen locos behind semis usually with multiple axles to spread the load in both England and Australia but they have been special movements here and (like one of the posts suggests for a rail depressed centre) on a depressed centre trailer.  

Cheers from Australia

 

Trevor

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 327 posts
Posted by AEP528 on Tuesday, December 26, 2023 7:03 AM

xdford

  

 

 

I don't know what size loco the OP intends to put on the flat car and a small prototype engine may well fit on a flat car and be within load constraints. A check of USRA engine weights on Google showed the USRA 0-6-0  - not the tender - weighed 165,000 lbs.  I have one of those as a Proto model and the engine on our kitchen scale weighed about 5 ozs in round figures, vix twice the weight limit printed on the side of an Athearn 40ft Flat. 

Of course as you state, the loco is not scaled down mechanically not can it be. Electric motors, plastic shells and lead weights do not scale down a set of boiler tubes, a firebox, lagging, siderods etc and I only ever use the 87 cubed as a gauge but it has served me well enough.  I mainly use it to assess traction and one of my locos with 2oz of drawbar pull = about 90,000 lbs of tractive effort. Pretty powerful but the drag of model freight cars is much higher than the real thing so the trains even if I could fit true length in would not be as long. 

I have also seen locos behind semis usually with multiple axles to spread the load in both England and Australia but they have been special movements here and (like one of the posts suggests for a rail depressed centre) on a depressed centre trailer.  

Cheers from Australia

 

Trevor

 

The OP clearly stated it was an 0-4-0. I gave an example of an 0-4-0 that currently travels around the country on a road trailer, and it's not as heavy as one would expect. 

The reason I brought up the number of axles is that the truck only had two more axles than a traditional semi. To carry a steam locomotive.

Regarding my other point about narrow gauge steam locomotvies on flatcars, examples are not hard to find. None of the example pictures I've seen have used depressed center flatcars.

https://ngtrainpics.photoshelter.com/image/I0000Snr2XqRNoIw

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Midtown Sacramento
  • 3,340 posts
Posted by Jetrock on Saturday, January 6, 2024 12:34 AM

I'd worry more about vertical clearance than too much weight, unless you don't have any tunnels, overpasses, or other things that the load might bash into above the tracks! If it's a non-functional tank engine you don't care about keeping intact, removing the drivers would lower the center of gravity a bit, lower the overall height, and provide a good reason why the loco isn't being transported on its own wheels (if it ain't got none) but might need some wooden cribbing on either side to help secure the load.

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!