Hi! I'm new to the forum, but have been lurking for a few months after I've pulled my HO-scale stuff out of the garage for the first time in ten years. I've gotten it mostly all running beautifully, but when I upgraded my Mantua F7A NYC Central (I think the first 1990s version) to Kadee couplers, it started derailing consistently to the left through right-hand curves (regardless of radius), where it had never done so before.
Of course, first thing I did was to remove the Kadee couplers thinking they were somehow causing issues, but no. I've narrowed it down to two potential issues:
I know this is nearly impossible to diagnose online, but has anyone seen anything like this before or have some tips on next steps? I'm almost getting ready to give up and retire it, but it was a gift and running very well before for years.
Current Locos: Tyco GG1 Amtrak (broken/display), Mantua F7A NYC Central, Atlas/Kato GP7 PRR, Alco/Samhongsa Alco S-2Favorite RRs (wish to model): SF Belt Line, Key System, Western Pacific, BARTPrimarily working in HO scale
I would get a NMRA and make sure the wheels are in gauge. I suspect it's going to be the warpage that is the issue. Do the trucks rotate (left right) easily?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddyI would get a NMRA and make sure the wheels are in gauge. I suspect it's going to be the warpage that is the issue. Do the trucks rotate (left right) easily?
Oh right I meant to order one of those I should do that...thanks for putting that back in my head! And yes, they rotate freely. I also suspect it's the warpage, it's the only thing that makes logical sense, just seemed so sudden.
Try running it with the body off if the wheels check out.
Jim
Ill list the things that I will do when this happens to my locomotives.
Could be bad track work, do other engines derail were it does?
Use a NMRA gauge to check the wheel gauge
Check if someone has added weight
See if anything is interfering with the turning of the trucks
Does anything just look wrong on the locomotive's drive?
Hopefully this helps
-bmtrainmaster
Hi there and welcome to the forum! Your first messages will be moderated, so please be patient.
I believe this is your model:
https://hoseeker.net/mantuainstructions/mantuaf71990pg1.jpg
Check to see if your trucks are sitting correctly on the frame. You can do this by putting it on a flat surface to see if all wheels are level. The frame could be the problem but I suspect that it's just an assembling issue.
Also look if you reassembled the trucks correctly: put the loco on its back and see if all fits correctly (wheels and cover).
Good luck!
Simon
Thank you everyone for your kind replies, this forum seems to have such a great group of folks. Some specific responses below, but I'll get some time today to take detailed pics and upload them after my meetings are over. I also ordered an NMRA gauge last night, thanks for the reminder!
Soo Line fan Try running it with the body off if the wheels check out.
bmtrainmaster Ill list the things that I will do when this happens to my locomotives. Could be bad track work, do other engines derail were it does? Use a NMRA gauge to check the wheel gauge Check if someone has added weight See if anything is interfering with the turning of the trucks Does anything just look wrong on the locomotive's drive? Hopefully this helps -bmtrainmaster
Hi bmtrainmaster, thanks for the great list of things to check! Been through most of them I think. I am running Bachmann EZ Track since I don't have place for a permanent layout, but my Kato and all cars (I have 16 cars) are running beautifully at all places, forward and backward (ok except one Bachmann hopper that likes to bunch and derail pushed in reverse lol). I have about 1.25 scale-miles of track laid-out in my living room and the derails only happen on right-hand curves.
Gauge is on order (and I do suspect this may help me forward, I could have tweaked the wheel spacing cleaning them).
Loco is all orginal, no added weight (I had some weight on top of the unit temporarily before it went bad to help with a 4% grade, but it ran fine after that was removed). Trucks turn freely and smoothly with no interference or catching, and the entire drive is smooth and free (actually surprised how nice it all is for 30+ years old).
snjroy Hi there and welcome to the forum! Your first messages will be moderated, so please be patient. I believe this is your model: https://hoseeker.net/mantuainstructions/mantuaf71990pg1.jpg Check to see if your trucks are sitting correctly on the frame. You can do this by putting it on a flat surface to see if all wheels are level. The frame could be the problem but I suspect that it's just an assembling issue. Also look if you reassembled the trucks correctly: put the loco on its back and see if all fits correctly (wheels and cover). Good luck! Simon
Hi Simon, thanks for the welcome! Very familiar with being new to forums and in that moderated phase, no worries at all over here =)
That is indeed my model, HOSeeker has been a fantastic resource in so many ways.
I just double-checked the truck mounting in the frame, it seems perfect. And I've disassembled and reassembled them SO many times trying to solve this, I'm very confident that's fine too.
Overall though, everyone's given me a lot to re-think when I take it back apart after the NMRA gauge arrives, I'll be re-checking ALL of this and of course will post here when/if I get it fixed (or not). As I said earlier too, I'll post some pics of the engine so you all can see what I'm talking about with regard to the wheel alignment.
I know a 1990 Mantua F7 isn't that special a thing, it was just a gift from my husband very early in our relationship, so it's special. Really appreciate the input and further ideas.
I do have a video uploaded to my S3 bucket already from December when it was on Christmas Tree duty: http://img.duggi.net/trains/2832FE0A-EFD5-4170-8F1B-9735334EBF4D.MOV
Duggi, I fully understand your will to get an old loco running for sentimental reasons.
I don't know about the others, but I cannot see the video.
If I remember correctly, Mantua Fs used the same mounting systems as Bluebox Fs, you could probably just buy a Bluebox Chassis and mount the shell on it. It would run better
Bachmann Ez Track... Welp I use to use it and I even had brand new cars derail over the switches...
Anyways, if it derails on any turn outs you might need to file down the points to prevent derailments. Bachmann Ez track doesn't have gauge problems but instead railjoiner problems. Make sure to replace beat up railjoiners but you will need pliers to remove the railjoiners because they are stamped to the rail.
Apologies for not circling-back yet, I'm still waiting on my NMRA gauge so haven't taken the loco back apart yet, but will be looking at this thread when I do =)
snjroy Duggi, I fully understand your will to get an old loco running for sentimental reasons. I don't know about the others, but I cannot see the video. Simon
Yes I guess I didn't get the video embedded correctly, I'll edit and try again.
Great Northern Fan 54 If I remember correctly, Mantua Fs used the same mounting systems as Bluebox Fs, you could probably just buy a Bluebox Chassis and mount the shell on it. It would run better
This is great to know, thank you! It's nice to have an alternative option if I can't get it right.
bmtrainmaster Bachmann Ez Track... Welp I use to use it and I even had brand new cars derail over the switches... Anyways, if it derails on any turn outs you might need to file down the points to prevent derailments. Bachmann Ez track doesn't have gauge problems but instead railjoiner problems. Make sure to replace beat up railjoiners but you will need pliers to remove the railjoiners because they are stamped to the rail. -bmtrainmaster
Yes yes I know, but honestly I have generally no problems with it...all problems I was having were solved by good old-fashioned cleaning, wheel replacement (replaced all my stock with walthers full metal wheelsets), truck tuning (love that tool) and tediously-proper installation of all kadee connectors, even on the floor everything runs like a swiss clock on that ez-track, even through the 6 turnouts I'm using. The Mantua did too, until I worked on it And yes I've dealt with a lot of the railjoiners, honestly they are a pain no matter what kind of track you are using (if you ask me).
It's taken me a long time to come back here and update, simply because this has been such a weird issue...the comments you all provided have been awesome though. While the locomotive is not FIXED, I at least know what my mystery was: prior to experiencing the problems, I'd never run it in a clockwise direction around my layout loops. I had to do a lot of thinking, but I realized that I prefer running counter-clockwise and just never thought of it, so the problem didn't appear until I added switching and stuff and started running things around BOTH directions
So the mystery is solved. For now I can enjoy it counter-clockwise as much as I like, and will just keep an eye out for a cheap unit I can rob the power trucks from in the future. Otherwise it's a fantastic runner, creeps nice a slow, very smooth, much better than my new-old-stock Athearn bluebox F7 units I just got. Thank you everyone for your support and comments!
From what you describe, most likely the problem is in your track rather than the engine. I would try running the engine very very slowly through the trouble error over and over until you spot what is causing the problem. Could be something as simple as a misaligned rail joiner causing one rail to be lifted up a little.
If it is the engine, it could be there is something physically blocking the movement of one of the trucks so it can't turn far enough in one direction to follow the track, but can in the other direction. Try sitting the engine on a flat surface like a table and try manually to move the trucks side to side and see if anything "catches" when doing it.
wjstix From what you describe, most likely the problem is in your track rather than the engine. I would try running the engine very very slowly through the trouble error over and over until you spot what is causing the problem. Could be something as simple as a misaligned rail joiner causing one rail to be lifted up a little. If it is the engine, it could be there is something physically blocking the movement of one of the trucks so it can't turn far enough in one direction to follow the track, but can in the other direction. Try sitting the engine on a flat surface like a table and try manually to move the trucks side to side and see if anything "catches" when doing it.
I appreicate your response, I should try to get a photo of the actual trucks to demonstrate the issue with them when I take them all apart for cleaning/oiling next. I suspect it's very uncommon. The wheels are clearly being held in a curved radius relevant to eachother on each truck by the slightly warped plastic housings. It's minor, but noticeable. The trucks can turn enough (this was my original thought), it's that the curved orentiation of the front and rear wheels on each axel relevant to eachother causes them to "ride-up" the rail when negotiating a right-hander. On the flip side, super smooth on left-handers
I'll add some more details in case future readers ever experience this...I personally hate finding threads where the resolution was never discussed at least...
As far as the track, I've actually re-arranged it several times in two rooms and the issue persists with the Mantual F7 very consistently. And I currently have no joiner issues and it's on a very flat hard floor (has a super thin hard carpet over the hardwood). I know EZ-Track on the floor isn't ideal, but this is an adult household that's clean (I have a bit of a passion for vaccuuming), and it's in a room that doesn't get traffic.
I also have several other locomotives: an Atlas/Kato GP7, a Proto 1000 RDC, an Athearn Bluebox SuperPower F7A/B set (both powered), an Alco/Samhongsa Alco S-2, an Athearn HiF band drive) F7A (now a dummy), and one of those Muni LRVs which all track perfectly in all directions and orientations. Along with all that are 31 pieces of rolling stock which run beautifully as well, so I'm pretty confident track-issues are sorted.
Regardless, I feel satisfied that I at least found the issue, even if it's not a straightforward solve other than "replace." I'll just make sure to put NY Central #1650 on routes with left-curves only HAHA!