So I went through the painstaking process of trying to resurrect some TYCO rolling stock that was handed down to me. They all had snap on plastic trucks underneath with plastic wheels and axles. I decided I wanted to put metal wheels on all of them so they would roll nicer. I started out by orderring 36" walther's wheel sets/ plastic axles with metal wheels. I got them in the mail and to my surprise the wheel did not roll freely in the trucks. So in frustration I returned the wheels and ordered 33" wheel sets. I finally got those in the mail and was excited to find that they did not roll freely as well. These TYCO trucks are HO scale and I only saw two different sizes. Maybe someone can shed some light on me and my efforts regarding these wheel sets. Thank you
The two wheel-diameter sizes have little to do with poor rolling qualities, but it's very likely that the axle length on them is too long to fit properly into the Tyco trucks. You might try a truck tuner (available from Micro Mark) which may improve the rolling qualities.
I use both plastic and metal axles and both types of wheels, too, along with some metal trucks, but much prefer the plastic wheels as they're not as noisy as the metal ones.
Wayne
The only way 33 versus 36 would impact rolling quality would be if something on the floor/underframe was rubbing.
I have a old MDC bulkhead flat that the floor rubbed on the wheels, so it has undersized 28" wheels, just to avoid the issue.
Otherwise it's an axle length issue.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Hello All,
I have restored numerous vintage Tyco cars.
As has been mentioned, the size of the wheels has little to do with rolling resistance, with some noted exceptions.
The axles have a greater effect on the rolling resistance.
Plastic on plastic; even with modern materials, tends to create more resistance than metal axles in plastic trucks.
I use Intermountain metal wheels with Accurail roller bearing plastic trucks with great success.
Upgrading the old Tyco press-fit trucks to this arrangement would require further modification of the carbody and require body mounting the couplers.
The Micro-Mark HO Truck Tuning Tool is an excellent suggestion.
Vintage Tyco wheels might have rounded ends, while modern wheels have pointed ends. The pointed ends digging into the plastic trucks might be causing the friction you describe.
Using the truck tuning tool will resurface where the upgraded axle points sit.
When installing new metal wheels in new plastic trucks I use this tool to surface the axle seats.
Changing the diameter of the wheels from 33" to 36" will affect the coupler height, which could create problems with unwanted uncoupling.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Did you measure the point-to-point axle length on the Tyco wheelsets, and match the length of the new wheelsets to that?
We have had a couple of very good analyses of how these axles actually work -- they are not meant to revolve on the points like conical clock bearings, for example. Someone not on a phone should post links.
The actual 'bearing' is between the upper side of the axle 'point' and the face of the slightly wider cone in the truck frame. The 'truck tuner' cuts the latter cone correctly and assures the surface is smooth (and while only a few degrees either side of top center are active, the tool by its nature finishes 360 degrees).
With a little care you may be able to 'machine' both axleboxes a bit deeper to accommodate a longer axle; work alternately since only one side of most of these tools actually 'cuts'.
Thank you all for your replies. I am learning a lot by joining this forum. I appreciate all the input. I had no idea that there was a tool you could purchase to modify the trucks. I think I am going to go that route and explore this concept. I was given 14 pieces of TYCO rolling stock and my entire layout with my bachmann trains all have metal wheels that I purchased. I did, however upgrade them by purchasing Bachmann metal wheel sets and they rolled just beautifully. I will explore the brand name in the suggestion given by jjdamnit, Intermountain wheels. I am a novice at this hobby so I appreciate the path in finding what works and also thank you for the hyperlink as well. Thank you all for your input. Robert
Hi,
If the wheel sets aren't rolling freely, and assuming they are not rubbing against anything, then its likely the use of the "truck tuner" (per Wayne's reply) will make a difference. The cars you are modifying are certainly candidates for this - from my experience anyway.
Also mentioned was the change in wheelsets may affect coupler height. I would certainly check that out.
One last thing...when I changed out over 200 cars (over time) to Intermountain wheel sets, the freight cars got the 33 inch and the passenger cars got the 36 inch. Of course these were pre-1960 type models and that "rule of thumb" was fairly valid for those prototypes back then.
Todays cars (say post 1970) have different "rules".
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
A few thoughts. Go back a decade or two before your Tyco cars with the snap off/snap in trucks and Mantua/Tyco freight cars (Mantua was the kit; Tyco the RTR otherwise, same stuff) had screw-on trucks with integral couplers. Metal trucks; plastic wheels (with ribbed backs so modeling the chilled wrought iron wheels of an older era) Those trucks and wheel sets were totally proprietary in terms of the bolster type and the axle type. The axles were very slender and thus the bearing for them was small. And the truck sideframes were metal. So a truck tuner would likely not be enough if you have those older cars like the old Mantuas. Over the years I did find replacement metal wheels with the right axle diameter but I am not sure where I would find them now. Because the bolster type was also proprietary, just swapping in a different brand of trucks was not a simple task, and since the floor/bolster were metal there were often reasons for wanting to use the trucks that came with the car, finding new wheels if you could, and getting out the Dremel tool to work on the cast metal floor for body mounted Kadees.
My other point is for those with old AHM freight cars. On those trucks brake shoes were cast onto the truck side frame. So a truck tuner might be be useful (although on most AHM cars that axles were much larger than normal) but not be enough; whether you were using 33" or 36" wheels you needed to shave away on that brake shoe casting. Ditto for AHM passenger cars. Why didn't the original plastic wheels have a problem? Because they were 30" wheels that's why! As with their steam locomotive drivers, AHM and its sources such as Rivarossin or Pocher figured that with oversized flanges it was better to make the wheels smaller than scale size.
And of course changing a car from 30" to 33" or 36" wheels also meant the coupler height just changed but that is ok because my wheel replacement coincided with snapping off the "talgo" coupler on the truck, and body mounting Kadees.
Final point is that most trainset quality cars, AHM or Tyco, are prototypes that would have had 33" wheels. The prototype didn't just assign any old wheel diameter to a car. Rule of thumb is that 100 ton cars (the AHM Pullman Standard covered hopper for example) would get 36" wheels.
Dave Nelson
I thought the size of wheel sets corresponded to the build date (blt) of the car?
kasskaboose I thought the size of wheel sets corresponded to the build date (blt) of the car?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
No, wheel size depends upon car capacity, 70 ton = 33", 100 ton = 36", Although some cars, Walthers auto-racks for example used 28" wheels.
Dan
Kadee makes an Overshank (or is it Undershank?) couplers that can achieve the proper coupler height when changing from 33 to 36 inch wheels.
Agree with others, its the axle lenght that generally impedes rolling quality. Different brands of wheelsets have different lengths. I think the PROTOs are slightly longer than the Intermountain's for example. You can try a different brand instead of tuning.
I model the more current era and have no use for 33 inch wheels. I think boxcars might still have them, but generally all other types of cars come with 36 inch wheels, IIRC.
- Douglas