Hazmat- safely disposing of lead filings/sawdust

[bpickering]

I've got an Atlas C30-7 to which I'm planning on adding a Soundtrax DSX-150 (it already has a Digitrax DH-163IP for motor/accessory control). I think I can make adequate space in the radiator compartment for a 1" speaker, but space inside the shell is tight for the decoder itself. Thus, I expect I'm going to need to cut down the rear weight, as I've seen done in at least one such conversion on the web.

However, let's just say that I'm more than a little paranoid about lead, particularly having an almost-four-year-old around the house, along with having a life-long interest in environmental matters. I guess I'm more "spooked" about working with it than I am about working with solvent-based paints (where, at least I can work most of the time with acrylics, and have the paint booth and chemical mask for protection from fumes.)

While I'm thinking of doing the cutting out in the garage, away from living spaces, I still will end up an amount of lead "sawdust". I'm thinking of putting plastic under/around the mitre box to try to contain it, but that still leaves the question of what to do with the dust once I'm done. I'm reasonably sure that I could just wrap up said plastic, drop it in the trash can, and no-one would ever notice, although I'm also fairly sure this is also illegal (for example, lead is one of the reasons it's now illegal in many, if not most, states to dump a TV or computer monitor into the trash). I'm also not particularly thrilled with just wiping off anything else to which the lead dust will have come in contact.

So, what have other people come up with around this problem? I seem to recall that there services out there to do machining/milling like this- any recommendations? How have others dealt with this? I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid-enough? [?]

Thanks,

Brian "spooked" Pickering

[ndbprr]

The frame isn't lead and I don't think there ever was a frame that was 100% lead. If it concerns you that much cut it outside over a trash can but there is nothing in there that will cause harm from just cutting it. Now if you take it to several thousand degrees and give off vapors that is a different story. You run more risk from the lead in the solder joints of your plumbing then in that frame.

[cacole]

Most locomotive frames are a Zinc alloy, not lead, so I don't think there is anything to be concerned about as far as disposing of the filings.

If you type the word zinc into Google and then click on the link that begins with "History: German Zinc...." you can learn more than you ever wanted to know about zinc.

[Virginian]

Get a shop vac with a good filtration system and vacuum up after and during the cutting, if you cut lead. Having said that however, most loco frames are not lead.
I have environmental concerns also, but I feel lead is a political pollutant. If it's out of the gas where it did go everywhere, and you don't let your kids eat old paint chips, and you don't cast lead yourself, you shouldn't have a problem. The inert solid form is safe as houses, and because of it's great density, any 'dust' isn't going far at all.

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

The frame isn't lead and I don't think there ever was a frame that was 100% lead.

Never said the frame is lead. [:)] The frame of the loco is plastic.

However, the weight on top of the frame, which extends all the way to the top of the hood, appears to be lead. That's what I'm concerned about. Although I haven't tested its' specific gravity, the appearance of this weight is far closer to the lead weights that I use in my cars, or the lead sheet I've got from Loy's Toys for baffling the speaker, than the zinc frames of my old Athearn locos. However, I guess it could be zinc instead of lead- the lustre/hardness is similar, once oxidation is considered.

OK, maybe I was being too paranoid. Maybe it's all the labels required stating something along the lines of "This substance is known by the state of CA to cause cancer", problems with lead poisoning due to fish, paint in old houses, etc.

Anyway, I'll just "handle with care". Thanks, all.

Brian Pickering

[Leon Silverman]

Try the diamond test on your lead weight. Instead of biting the weight, try cutting it with a diagonal pliers or sheet metal shears. Lead is soft enough that you shoujld be able to slice right through it with these hand tools. If all you can do is make a slight indentation in the weight, it is a zinc alloy, commonly referred to as zamac.
If you can slice through the weight with the hand tools, you have solved your fillings/sawdust problem.
Keep in mind somthing else, lead is soft enough that will probably clog the teethe on your file and fill in the rough spots on a cutting disk. Also, since lead is a component of solder, you can use a soldering tool to melt the lead away instead of cutting it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm not sure if the weight is lead or not, but my recommendation would be to simply use a hack or razor saw, and do your cutting over the trash can with a bag liner in it. You won't be creating that much dust, and will be able to quickly and cleanly dispose of it.

In spite of our best efforts to remove lead from our environment, it is still a common and necessary element. We have over the years managed to considerably reduce our children's exposure to lead by removing it from paint, gasoline, and plumbing solder. Of course that effort has raised awareness of potential health consequences surrounding lead.

As I understand it, the real danger from lead, and other heavy metals, such as cadmimum and arsenic, comes from prolonged and repeated exposure. The body cannot easily rid itself of these elements, and they build up to toxic levels. Children are even more suceptable to poisoning, because their lower body mass results in higher concentrations at equal exposure.

By today's standards, even printed circuit boards are considered hazardous material, and are supposed to be disposed of in a proper way, because the solder contains lead. But how many do you think find their way into the landfill? This is a big reason we recycle large batteries, such as car batteries, and pay a fee to do so.

Bottom line, go for it, clean up and enjoy.

[bpickering]

OK, yeah, I suspect I was over-worried about this all. [B)]

As the weight is almost 3/4" thick, I don't think I'll be cutting it with any shears I have. I was planning on using a hacksaw to cut it, so even if I destroy a blade on it (which I doubt), it's no great loss. Heck, that hacksaw has probably seen worse anyway- my grandfather "creatively acquired" it from the arsenal he worked in during WWII. [}:)]

As Big Boy implies, I guess there is a point at which one can have a little too much knowledge. Guilty as charged.

So, I guess for right now this goes on hold while I finish getting over the flu- not going to work in the garage, even in relatively warm Washington, until I'm well. Just as well- rather than getting really tricky/detailed by replacing the cast-on mesh of the radiator housing with super-detailing mesh, I'm trying a tip I've seen one or two places, and drilling holes. Even without having tinted the plastic inside the holes, looks pretty-good, almost passing the "Three Foot Rule". Only problem is, it took about an hour to drill out approximately 1/8 of the entire grille. I guess I'll be watching more of The History Channel this week. [:D]

Brian Pickering

[Anonymous]

with any hazmat disosal is key... all you have to do is take it to your local fire dept. and they will dispose of it properly... I would contact them first to make sure they have the capability.

[cwclark]

I'd just throw it in the trash..i'm no tree hugger and gonna die of something anyway someday...just make sure the kid doesn't chew on it ....chuck[:D]

[dave9999]

Chuck,
I'm glad you posted that. I've read over this and still can't understand the problem. At best, he'll end up
with a handfull of shavings... sweep them up and throw them away. Problem solved.[banghead] [:D] Dave

[Anonymous]

The weight is probably a zinc alloy as the manufacturers got away from lead many years ago.

As Chuck and Dave stated you're not going to have enough "sawdust" to worry about. Put it in the trash and don't worry.

Bob

[Fergmiester]

The big thing is to wash your hands to avoid injestion! Lead is found all over we just don't know it. As long as it is contained it is not a threat.

[grayfox1119]

As stated by Leon, lead is very soft, I have worked with lead in my earlier days, and you can literally slice off pieces with a sharp knife, or utility blade knife. If you can do that, it is lead, if not, you are safe to saw it without worry, but use safety glasses, metal particles sometimes fly off the blade, or, you forget and rub a dry eye...bad move !!!!
Just do the "shave" test.

[retsignalmtr]

the amount of lead dust you would make is neglegable. just do not use a compressed air source to blow it around. you should worry more about people throwing away flashlight batteries, watch batteries and other types of batteries.these are more dangerous than a 1/4 teaspoon of whatever metal you cut.

[Anonymous]

I melt lead to cast bullets for my muzzle loading rifle, have been doing it for years. I have only background traces of lead in my body, just like everyone else on earth. I place my waste in ziplok bags and ship them with the garbage. Those plastic bags will not biodegrade before the world ends, and I do not believe the world will end. You are not dealing with lead anyhow. The frame metal is most likely a zinc alloy and will not harm you. If it is not zinc based, then it will be a bismuth alloy, also not a threat to life around you. If you are concerned about poisons in your life, take an oxygen bottle with you when you drive your vehicle so you do not breath automotive exhaust. Or eat only natural grains instead of the chemically treated cereals the rest of us ingest. I do hope you live forever. I will not. No matter what I do, the day will come when people stand and tell lies about what a great guy I was, and then plant me in the ground. Too bad I can't take my trains with me.

Tom

[howmus]

QUOTE: No matter what I do, the day will come when people stand and tell lies about what a great guy I was, and then plant me in the ground. Too bad I can't take my trains with me.

[:0] You mean we can't take our trains with us. Ok, that does it! I'm not going! [;)]

Ray

[Anonymous]

I worked in a radiator repair shop for 3 years and handled lead everyday there. I was tested every 6 months for lead exposure and had no elevated levels in my blood whatsoever. I did however have a coworker who was an avid pistol reloader and he tested high. I doubt that cutting one weight if it is even lead based will be a great medical concern. Just take normal working precautions.

[CBQ_Guy]

You're kidding, right?

[Anonymous]

I see you don't live in CA, so don't worry about it. Lead is in a lot of things, and unless you cut loco weights every day you shouldn't have problems.

[grayfox1119]

Lead is nothing to take too lightly guys. With proper care in handling lead, you have nothing to worry about, just wash your hands after handling so you don't ingest any eating that candy bar or apple.
Remember, lead is what the Roman's used to bring water to their city. They never knew what lead did to them over time.....

Safety first guys, it is not a joke, nor silly...,

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CBQ_Guy

You're kidding, right?

No not kidding. Maybe feeling a little silly for having worried, but not kidding. And I >did< live in CA for almost 10 years, but I don't think that living elsewhere exempts me from at least considering the warnings that state requires. [:D]

In the end, yeah, we all die of something. I figger that there's no need to rush it, though. [:)]

I think of it this way- when I was growing up, I did a bunch of modelling using good 'ol plastic and wood glue, and solvent-based paints in my family's kitchen, in MN winter, meaning little to no ventilation. Did I think anything about it? Hardly- what 10-year-old would, even today? Did my parents think anything about it, even my RN mother? No- they encouraged the hobby.

But TODAY it's another issue- anyone still paint with solvent-based paints without making durn' certain you've got the ventilation in some way, shape, or form? (That is, paint booth, doing it outside, or at least having window/door open to outside?)

My question may also have been influenced by harking back to my grad-school days in Crocker Nuclear Lab, where I always had a little bit of a creepy feeling along my spine every time I went into "The Cave" where our targets and experiments were. I knew intellectually that so long as we were careful, we wouldn't get any dose (and, sure-enough, over a year my badge never showed even a tiny bit of clouding...). But... there is that knowledge that, if mis-handled, this can be Bad Stuff, and one must keep one's wits about one-self.

So, yeah, I probably over-reacted. As noted, assuming I don't go blowing it around (and I ain't THAT stupid! [}:)]), clean it up well before the four-year-old (actually my biggest concern...) wanders into the garage, and wash my hands well afterwards*, I should be fine.

Brian Pickering

* [}:)] [:D] [:p] But, waitaminit, I've got a septic tank- won't the lead hurt the micro-organisms in there? [}:)] [:D] [:p]

[mcouvillion]

Cutting lead weights with a razor saw or hack saw is not going to produce any dust. (A high-speed Dremel tool is potentially another matter.) The saws will produce course filings that can be scraped up, sealed, and thrown away. If you wash your hands well after handling it, there will be no adverse effects. Don't smoke when handling lead, as it could get from your fingers to the smoke and into your lungs. Otherwise, it's not an issue.

Mark C.

[Anonymous]

I hope this has been cleared up for you, I'm reading the last page. The frame of model locomotives is zinc. No worries!

And, yes, I still paint with solvent based paints when I need them and I'm not worried about it. My exposure time is extremely limited. I don't spray, I brush! If I sprayed I would would use a booth and mask. Don't go off the deep end now feeling you must warn me about how dangerous what I do, is! I am just fine. I am way more worried about all the atomized lubricants and grinding dust I breathed as a tool and die maker for 25 years.

I would stay away from any metal dust, if you can. Dust is very fine particles, grinding, not saw, dust. I don't think lead is as toxic as you make out. Most lead poisoning comes from kids eating lead based paints in dirt. Don't ingest. I never liked the taste of dirt so I don't think I've been exposed .

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bpickering

QUOTE: Originally posted by CBQ_Guy

You're kidding, right?

So, yeah, I probably over-reacted. As noted, assuming I don't go blowing it around (and I ain't THAT stupid! [}:)]), clean it up well before the four-year-old (actually my biggest concern...) wanders into the garage, and wash my hands well afterwards*, I should be fine.

Brian Pickering

Well there ya go. [^]