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Frog juicers are great, they power the frog and make sure the polarity is correct at the same time. I have had no issues except for one I caused myself by missing a gap that was needed.
In my experience, a four axle Athearn diesel should be able to go through a turnout without powering the frog. Did you check the current at the points with a voltmeter? Cleaning all surfaces of the points helps to ensure good contact.
Simon
Mark.
Your GP should go through the frogs without a hitch. Like a previous poster said, make sure the points are clean and tight against the stock rails. Is the crossover wired? Is that the spot where the loco stops?
If you're planning on some brand of turnout motor such as a Tortoise you can use the contacts on them for frog power.
Pete.
LION has a big double crossover. None of it is powered. It is gapped beore you endter the pland and gapped when you leave the plant. Plant is entirely dead.
But then LION runs 300' long subway trains with 48 wheel pickup.
ROAR
Powering your frogs will certainly make things better. In theory, you shouldn't need to with full-sized diesels, but if the turnout depends on points-to-stock rail connectivity, that can introduce other issues.
Your snap-relay should power a frog if wired correctly. How are you driving the actual turnouts? If you are driving that entire crossover from a single button, using Atlas machines, you may simply not have enough power to throw the turnouts and the snap-relays all at once. A capacitive discharge circuit would help. However, I'm not sure how that would work with stationary decoders and routing.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thanks to everyone for your replies. As far as I can tell, my switch points are tight and making correct contact. I have 2 atlas switches on one button and 2 atlas switches on another. Both buttons have enough power to throw both the switch machine and the snap relay. I ran the engine into the crossover several times today in both forward and reverse and there is no consistency. Sometimes it stalls on the frog and sometimes it doesn't.
If I do have to purchase frog juicers, what are your suggestions? I potentially have to power 28 switches.
Thanks,
Mark
In my personal opinion, frog juicers are an unnecessary luxury. My frogs are all unpowered, and I have one short wheelbase loco that had an issue. A keep-alive solved that one.
If your turnouts count on the point making good contact with the stock rails to power the closure rails, you are, in my experience, going to have contact problems in the future, especially if you plan to paint the rails and ballast the track. You'll be forever (and frequently) cleaning the points and the contact area on the stock rails to have contact.
Are the closure rails / points on the Atlas turnouts shorted together? On some brands they are, and on others they aren't.
A better solution to your problem is to wire in the closure rails (through through the relay if the closure rails / points are one electrical unit) to maintain proper polarity. A bit more work now, maybe, but a huge timesaver in terms of future maintenance.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
mark4253If I do have to purchase frog juicers, what are your suggestions? I potentially have to power 28 switches.
You could use a seprate ppwer supply for your switch machines. For Snap type motors, LION suggests 16 v AC. Him could use 18 or 24 v AC power supply. One leg iodf the power supply goes to ground. The second leg passes through two rectifiewrs
so tyhat you have either + or - voltage (A 1 pole double throw spring loaded switch - center off) so that only ONE Wire runs between the console and the switch machine. The Switch machine also has a pair of retifyers connected to the two control points, thith the center tap connected to ground.
You can buy Hex Frog Juicers which will drive 6 frogs. So, you would need 5 juicer units, and you'd have two unused slots for expansion. I've never used them, personally, but my experience with powering frogs from my Tortoise machines is very positive.
If you have juicers, you won't need the snap relays.
It is probably worth checking your loco with a voltmeter, and make sure that there is connectivity between all the wheels on either side. I have had Genesis locomotives in the past where one side of one truck didn't have good electrical contact to the circuit board.
As I accumulated short wheelbase locomotives I started to have frog issues. I came across a sale of Frog Juicers and bought a bunch and installed them as problems arose. I consider them a temporary fix as I will eventually put in switch machines that will do the job.
How you go forward should dictate your choices. For me whipping in a frog juicer was a quick solution as time was an issue. If you have the time and are happy with the track layout, go with the switch machines. I still have three or four Frog Juicers in the drawer ready to go as I can never figure out why some short wheelbase locos fail on some turnouts while others cruise right through. BUT I'M READY!
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Some time ago, there was an issue with Atlas turnouts which had overly high frogs, which momentarily cause some locomotives to stall at low speeds (locos moving at higher speeds might not have been affected). Most diesels were not affected, but when a friend visited with one of his latest brass steam locos, the problem was readily apparent, with the loco's drivers lifted high enough to interupt the current pick-up.A quick and easy fix was a few light passes with a not-too-coarse mill file.
I'm not suggesting that your issue may be caused by this, but it wouldn't hurt, if you were to place a straight-edge across the tracks (with track power off, of course) to see if the frog rails are too high, relative to the rest of the rails on the turnout.
Wayne
doctorwayneSome time ago, there was an issue with Atlas turnouts which had overly high frogs,
My old club experienced the same problem. It was my job to tune the turnouts to ensure proper long term operation, and one of the things that I checked was the frog height. I would say that about 2/3rds of the 100 or so Atlas turnouts had frogs that were higher than the surrounding rails. As Wayne suggests, I simply filed them flush.
However, before you start filing, I would suggest that you check that the frogs are properly seated in the turnout itself. I came across several situations where the frogs had popped up a tiny bit which would obviously cause the problem. I was able to push the frogs back into place and, IIRC, I used some CA to keep them in place. Some of those frogs still required a bit of filing.
To test the height of the frogs I used a small block of steel with square edges. I simply slid the block along the rails adjacent to the frog. If the frog was too high I could feel the block bump into it.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Pruitt Are the closure rails / points on the Atlas turnouts shorted together? On some brands they are, and on others they aren't.
No, Atlas turnouts are not power routing. They are feed thru routing.
The left and right points are isolated from each other, so are the closure rails.
Jumpers molded into the tie base carry power thru the turnout, both straight and diverging routes, without regard for which route is selected.
The frog in metal is but isolated from all the running rails. It has a wiring tab to allow it to be powered thru a relay or switch machine contacts.
https://wiringfordcc.com/switches_atlas_roco.htm
Sheldon
Wayne and Dave make a good point, I have taken the file to some of my Walthers turnouts and cross-overs as well as the plastic between the rails was lifting the wheels up and off. It was an easy fix.
Most of my turnouts are Atlas with insulated frogs and I have never wired any of the frogs. I have a few turnouts by other manufacturers that don't have insulated frogs and those require special wiring so the frog rails have the correct polarity for the way the points are thrown.
If your locos are stalling going over insulated turnouts, you probably have electrical pick up problems since only one axle of one truck is going to be on the insulated frog at a given time. This could be dirty wheels or a loose wire preventing the other wheels from picking up power from the powered rails.
Thanks to everyone for your reply's and suggestions. I have a lot of information to work with now. I think to start I'm going to look at the height of the frog in question and if necessary, file it down very carefully.
I never considered that the wheels on the logo could be lifting from the tracks. I'm also thinking that I have not yet nailed down this switch in the yard so I'm going to try that to see if that solves the issue. Sheldon, thanks for the link on the Atlas and Roco turnouts. This will be very helpful.
I think it may be a good idea to test the loco with a voltmeter as well.
The last thing I'm going to consider is are frog juicers.
What I'm not quite understanding is why my snap relays are not working. I'm confident that they are wired correctly and the switches are wired seperately to another power source. I also do have a switch machine wired to the switch with the frog issue.
I'll toss in my experience with Atlas Code 100 turnouts, albeit the older generations (with the giant rivets at the point hinges). I've found two conditions happen simultaneously can cause the diesel stall problem.
The frogs have some plastic at each end isolating them from the rails. Some diesel locomotives have a truck wheelbase exactly matches the length of the frog. The truck therefore loses pickup because both wheels are on the plastic at each end of the frog. The truck at the other end of the locomotive should pick up power, but if the point also dead (as others have described) the locomotive stops.
My experience with these turnouts is that the point hinge carries current into the point so the point does not need to make full contact with the stock rail. But the hinges eventually failed to carry current as dust and other contaminents got in there.
With the old Mark II and III turnouts I've had to solder thin wires to the points, drilled small holes near the point hinges, and lead the wires under the layout to the appropriate power feeds. I can't comment on how quickly the point hinges on a Mark V will fail to carry power.
George V.