Pulling Power

[B Rutherford]

Is it reasonable to expect a four axle diesel (GP9) to be able to pull nine 4oz cars up a 2% grade on a 32" radius?  I am having a hard time pulling nine cars up my helix. I used a little NoOx ID A Special on the rails and I am wondering if that is causing the problem or if I am asking too much of the engine. I should mention the engine is an Athearn engine and all cars have turned axle cups and Intermountain wheels 

[Mark R.]

I'm sure putting "grease" on the rails didn't help (flame away). Unless your engine is unusually light, it should have no trouble with that many cars. I have an RS3 (which I know is lighter) will easily pull 15 cars up a 2% inverted S-loop helix .... but I have never put a solution of any kind on my track.

Mark.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

B Rutherford

Is it reasonable to expect a four axle diesel (GP9) to be able to pull nine 4oz cars up a 2% grade on a 32" radius?  I am having a hard time pulling nine cars up my helix. I used a little NoOx ID A Special on the rails and I am wondering if that is causing the problem or if I am asking too much of the engine. I should mention the engine is an Athearn engine and all cars have turned axle cups and Intermountain wheels 

 

Not that it matters much, but is it an older Athearn engine or a new Genesis engine?

Why did you put NoOx on the rails? Not a common practice, not a good idea.

That loco should likely pull 15, or even 20 cars up a 2% grade.

Sheldon

[B Rutherford]

It is a newer Genesis unit.  After a bunch of research I need to wipe the rails a few times. 

Actually using Google shows using NoOx is a fairly common practice. Turns out there is very specific directions that I failed to finish following. 

NoOx was even recommended by the great Linn Wescott back in the seventies.

[tstage]

With all due respect to Linn Wescott, I've never understood the use of grease/oils for cleaning track - e.g. Wahl oil.

The purpose of grease & oils is for decreasing the coefficient of friction.  It's great on the skids of a sled for racing downhill but NOT for wheels pulling weight where you want traction.

Grease also attracts dirt.  Why not just wipe down the rails with a lint-free cloth wetted with a mild degreaser - e.g. isopropyl alcohol - since you have to wipe it down anyhow?

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now...

Tom

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

B Rutherford

It is a newer Genesis unit.  After a bunch of research I need to wipe the rails a few times. 

Actually using Google shows using NoOx is a fairly common practice. Turns out there is very specific directions that I failed to finish following. 

NoOx was even recommended by the great Linn Wescott back in the seventies.

 

Well, OK. I have also known people to use Wahl clipper oil too, but I'm not a fan.

Maybe I just build layouts in good environments, but I have never had all these issues this products are designed to fix.

The isopropyl alcohol thing works good for me on the rare occasion there is a problem.

Sheldon

[B Rutherford]

To each his own 

My layout is in a clean, dry, temperature controlled space. Feeders to every track and six per turnout. Rail joiners soldered. Keep alives in all engines.

  The slightest flicker of a headlight or even the very occasional stall drives me nuts. Freaking OCD

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

B Rutherford

To each his own 

My layout is in a clean, dry, temperature controlled space. Feeders to every track and six per turnout. Rail joiners soldered. Keep alives in all engines.

  The slightest flicker of a headlight or even the very occasional stall drives me nuts. Freaking OCD

 

Well, again OK. I still run DC, with an advanced cab control system. Been soldering all rail joints for 50 years now, only run one feeder to each control block because of inductive detection circuits. No pickup issues here?

Sheldon

[hon30critter]

Hi Bill,

This may be a stupid question, but is the locomotive spinning its wheels or is the motor stalling, as in no wheels turning?

If it is spinning its wheels then you obviously have a traction problem, but if the wheels are not spinning there may be something else wrong.

Have you checked to see how free rolling the cars are? I know you said that you tuned the trucks and that you have InterMountain wheelsets so they are not likely the problem, but it pays to make sure.

Dave

[B Rutherford]

Dave,

I believe it is spinning but need to verify. 

I am very curious to follow the directions that I found tonight and wipe down the rails. I will report back what I learn as the week goes on. 

The things I am finding reference my exact problem and they say the cure is to wipe down the rails. Apparently this removes the grease which makes sense without losing the anti oxidizing.  I have read posts / articles from guys claiming to have not cleaned track for many years after this technique. 

[doctorwayne]

B Rutherford

Is it reasonable to expect a four axle diesel (GP9) to be able to pull nine 4oz cars up a 2% grade on a 32" radius?  I am having a hard time pulling nine cars up my helix. I used a little NoOx ID A Special on the rails and I am wondering if that is causing the problem or if I am asking too much of the engine. I should mention the engine is an Athearn engine and all cars have turned axle cups and Intermountain wheels 

 

A few minutes ago, I used an older (circa 1980) Athearn geep to pull 9 loaded Athearn hoppers, and a caboose up a long-ish (45') grade with a couple of horseshoe curves and some S-bends turns near the top.  The grade was at 2.9%, uncompensated for the curves. 
The caboose weighed 3.7oz., while the hoppers, loaded with Black Beauty blasting medium, each weighed in at about 7.4oz.

 

I should mention too, that the locomotive has been remotored with a good quality Mashima motor, and has been ballasted to a weight of 18.3oz.

 

Under normal conditions, I would use two such locos and perhaps a dozen loaded cars.  I seldom need to clean track, and wouldn't use any type of lubricant on it.

 

Wayne

[Water Level Route]

B Rutherford

Is it reasonable to expect a four axle diesel (GP9) to be able to pull nine 4oz cars up a 2% grade on a 32" radius?

Very reasonable.  I routinely pull 9 cars (maybe not all perfectly 4oz, but close enough) up my layout's ruling grade with a single 4 axle diesel. (Bachmann GP7, RS3, or Athearn F7)  My ruling grade is a 25" radius, approximately 250 degree turnback at about 3-1/2%.  If I add many more cars to the train, I will start to have wheel slippage on the locomotive, but if I stick to this length things are fine.

[John-NYBW]

B Rutherford

It is a newer Genesis unit.  After a bunch of research I need to wipe the rails a few times. 

Actually using Google shows using NoOx is a fairly common practice. Turns out there is very specific directions that I failed to finish following. 

NoOx was even recommended by the great Linn Wescott back in the seventies.

 

Back in the 1970s, brass track was the rule and it had much greater oxidation issues than nickel silver which is why nobody makes brass track anymore. I use to think it was kind of cool the way brass track would spark. That was when I was a kid. I don't think that would be so cool now.  

[NHTX]

Bill;

     You may be just spinning your wheels (sorry, pun intended) by cleaning the stuff off just your track.  I am not familiar with the substance we're talking about but, you might be money ahead to also clean the wheels of any car or locomotive that has operated on it, since its application.  Cleaning only the track and allowing it to remain on wheels simply continues the cycle of cleaning.

[rrebell]

I understand the problems of dirt on the track and even my trackwork occasionaly has a spot that my small engines will stall on. The whole layout was built the same way and any inperfections are not noticable to the human eye and these appear after not running for a month or two at as slow as it will go speed.

[B Rutherford]

So after a bunch of experimenting I find that I have to agree with those who advised against the NoOx.  I wiped the track as recommended in the NoOx posts, cleaned the loco wheels and still no traction. Cleaned the track with mineral spirits and now I have all the pulling power I could want.

Bottom line, I am done with the NoOx!!!

What I am at a loss to explain is that there are a great many posts talking about how great the NoOx is.

[SD70Dude]

tstage

With all due respect to Linn Wescott, I've never understood the use of grease/oils for cleaning track - e.g. Wahl oil.

The purpose of grease & oils is for decreasing the coefficient of friction.  It's great on the skids of a sled for racing downhill but NOT for wheels pulling weight where you want traction.

The same thing happens with the 1:1 stuff.  Locomotives slip when they go over a flange lubricator (also known as track greasers).  I can think of a few occasions where we stalled and had to double a hill after spinning out on a greaser, probably would have made it if the darn thing wasn't there. 

One of our old timetables rates a GP9 to take 850 tons up a line with a 2% ruling grade.  This works out to 6 to 8 loads depending on how heavy the cars are. 

[BroadwayLion]

tstage

Grease also attracts dirt. Why not just wipe down the rails with a lint-free cloth wetted with a mild degreaser - e.g. isopropyl alcohol - since you have to wipe it down anyhow?

 

Because I have 14 scale miles of rail, and (as this is a subway layout) much of it is not accessible to a LION sized paw holding a rag. ME THUNKED that using ATF on most of the layout would allow the equipment to distribute it to the rest.

[garya]

B Rutherford

What I am at a loss to explain is that there are a great many posts talking about how great the NoOx is.

There are all sorts of videos and posts on various fora discussing cleaning, gleaming, and a variety of approaches.  This one is typical:

https://youtu.be/lBYxjcTWCB0