I purchased a used Athearn/Roundhouse Pennsy F7B on ebay. It was described as follows:
Athearn RND14784 HO Pennsylvania F7B Locomotive DC #9651B EX/Box
In the detailed description was this information:
Here is a Athearn RND14784 HO Pennsylvania F7B Locomotive DC #9651B. Features include a plastic construction, plastic trucks, kadee couplers and metal wheels.This item has been graded per TCA standards C-7: Excellent. There are light rub marks on the wheels from previous use. The instruction manual is included. The original box is included. Check the photos for a detailed look at this item. Overall condition is Excellent.Condition: Excellent (C-7)Operational Status: FunctionalOriginal Box: Yes (P-7)Manufacturer: AthearnModel Number: RND14784Road Name: PennslyvaniaScale/Era: HO ModernModel Type: Diesel Loco
I received it yesterday afternoon and when I opened it up I was suprised to see it is a non-powered dummy. I don't see anywhere in which that was indicated and the fact it was described as a DC locomotive to me implies it is a powered unit. A non-powered unit is neither DC nor DCC. Is this a deceptive description or did I read more into it than what it said?
I'm not sure how I want to proceed. I can actually use it as is or use the shell for some fixer upper F-units I have on hand. However, I would never have paid what I did for it, over $64 including shipping and tax, had I known it was a dummy unit. I think I am entitled to a refund if I choose to go that route. Am I wrong about this?
A quick google search using 'Athearn RND14784' shows it to be a dummy loco.
[RND14784]
CNR378 A quick google search using 'Athearn RND14784' shows it to be a dummy loco. HO F7B Dummy, PRR #9651b [RND14784]
Shouldn't that have been in the description rather than describing it as a DC locomotive?
In my mind, the very fact that it was described as DC implied it was a powered unit, not a dummy unit. I wouldn't anticipate having to double check the description provided as your particular item may have been powered by a previous owner. I would inquire about a refund of some amount.
Mike
Two ways to go about it.
1) Contact seller explaining it is not as advertised.
Wait for his reply and see what their answer is.
If the reply is return with full refund, then (if you still want it) offer your price.
2) If seller becomes unaccommodating after step 1, contact Ebay with complaint.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
You didn't say in the original post, but the description text/wording sounds like Trainz from Buford, GA.
I have needed to return a couple of items to them, and had no problems at all. If I remember correctly, there was a "return this item" box to click on the eBay page for the original item.
The returns were not questioned on their end. I have bought quite a bit from them, and service has always been good.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Hello All,
As an eBay seller, I try to be exact as possible in the descriptions of the items I am listing.
I am also a fellow hobbyist.
This gives me, I believe, a better insight as to what I am selling versus an estate broker or multi-item, general seller.
Had I listed this item I would not have listed it as "DC". To me, DC "implies" a powered unit.
I would have specified that it was a non-powered, "Dummy" unit.
Shady listing? Possibly.
Uneducated listing? Definitely!
Purposely deceptive? Tough call...
Even if the seller "Does Not Accept Returns" in their terms and conditions, there is a clause that states if the item listed is not as described- -not DC in your situation- -then the no return policy is null and void.
The seller could argue ignorance. Unfortunately, this is a tactic that many unscrupulous sellers rely upon.
It is then up to you to present the case that, ultimately, it was not as "described".
As an eBay buyer, I have found that "Not As Described" is an easily proven reason for a full refund, minus shipping.
When dealing with sellers on eBay the phrase, "Caveat Emptor" comes to mind.
If this were my purchase I would pursue the not as described avenue.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
John-NYBW I purchased a used Athearn/Roundhouse Pennsy F7B on ebay. It was described as follows: Athearn RND14784 HO Pennsylvania F7B Locomotive DC #9651B EX/Box In the detailed description was this information: Here is a Athearn RND14784 HO Pennsylvania F7B Locomotive DC #9651B. Features include a plastic construction, plastic trucks, kadee couplers and metal wheels.This item has been graded per TCA standards C-7: Excellent. There are light rub marks on the wheels from previous use. The instruction manual is included. The original box is included. Check the photos for a detailed look at this item. Overall condition is Excellent.Condition: Excellent (C-7)Operational Status: FunctionalOriginal Box: Yes (P-7)Manufacturer: AthearnModel Number: RND14784Road Name: PennslyvaniaScale/Era: HO ModernModel Type: Diesel Loco I received it yesterday afternoon and when I opened it up I was suprised to see it is a non-powered dummy. I don't see anywhere in which that was indicated and the fact it was described as a DC locomotive to me implies it is a powered unit. A non-powered unit is neither DC nor DCC. Is this a deceptive description or did I read more into it than what it said? I'm not sure how I want to proceed. I can actually use it as is or use the shell for some fixer upper F-units I have on hand. However, I would never have paid what I did for it, over $64 including shipping and tax, had I known it was a dummy unit. I think I am entitled to a refund if I choose to go that route. Am I wrong about this?
IMO, this seller is a volume seller of used Trainz, I recognize how the description reads.
Its probably entered by an employee who is following a template. The misleading description was probably not intentional.
Since DC was in the description, and its a nonpoered unit, its an "item is not as described" under Policy.
I would start a return under the ebay return portal and select that button, and explain their error. You do not need seller's acknowledgement, but they would probably agree with you anyway once the error was explained.
- Douglas
Thanks to all for the input. Yes, this was from Trainz. Before I even made an offer, I considered whether it was a dummy unit but when I saw it described as a DC loco, that told me otherwise. This is a discontinued item as listed by Athearn. The price I paid for it is actually higher than the original MSRP by a few dollars and $8 more than the slashed price before it was discontinued.
I'm going to give the seller the benefit of the doubt that maybe he didn't even know it was a dummy unit when it was listed. That could be the case if he bought it from someone else before listing it. It was in its original box with the original interior packaging and all the documentation. I like the suggestion of contacting the seller and negotiating a partial refund. As I said I can use the item and I'm sure the seller wouldn't want to pay the return charge.
There is no doubt that it is a mistake on the part of the seller (Trainz). They made a mistake on one of my orders, and I negotiated an agreement with them. I think they are sensitive to the reviews they get...
Simon
John-NYBW Thanks to all for the input. Yes, this was from Trainz. Before I even made an offer, I considered whether it was a dummy unit but when I saw it described as a DC loco, that told me otherwise. This is a discontinued item as listed by Athearn. The price I paid for it is actually higher than the original MSRP by a few dollars and $8 more than the slashed price before it was discontinued. I'm going to give the seller the benefit of the doubt that maybe he didn't even know it was a dummy unit when it was listed. That could be the case if he bought it from someone else before listing it. It was in its original box with the original interior packaging and all the documentation. I like the suggestion of contacting the seller and negotiating a partial refund. As I said I can use the item and I'm sure the seller wouldn't want to pay the return charge.
Yes. If its a hard to find item you may want to keep it and negotiate a partial refund for their mistake. Otherwise you have to find a replacement at a price that satisfies you.
That seller has a standard template that I always find to be a little light about the running qualities of locomotives. Also, their prices on locomotives seem to be above the competition, IMO. I have bought freight cars from them because the pics provide adequate description of quality. I have not had any problems with them.
To me, the term 'DC' means it's not DCC or equivalent, so no decoder installed. DC, in our hobby, means it's analog, not 'dummy'. So it would be a reasonable person's expectation that it will run on DC tracks. Since it has no drive mechanism, it can't run on DC tracks. Ergo, it is not a 'DC' locomotive....as it was advertised to be.
Pretty straightforward. Yes, ask them for a partial refund.
I have one dummy F7B unit that I got at a train show. It was just a plain old BB unit, all plastic, with horn hook couplers. I think I paid $15 for it.
I think the price tag on the Trainz item was deceptive. $64 for a unit, even with tax and shipping, seems outrageous to me and perhaps should have raised a red flag.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
From the "returns" tab on the ebay page for that item:
We love happy customers and do our best to maintain a fair and hassle-free customer satisfaction policy. We will gladly repair or replace your item, issue a refund, or negotiate a partial credit. Just contact us within 30 days of receipt of the item. Explain why the item does not meet your expectations and how you would like us to handle the issue. If your item has been damaged try to include a photograph of the actual damages. We’ll do our absolute best to make you happy. If you and Trainz decide that the best recourse is to return the item for refund or repair we will send you a pre-paid return call tag at no cost (except for returns due to customer remorse). Make sure to include your contact and order information when you return your items. Once Trainz receives and inspects the items we will repair your item or issue a refund based on the criteria in our full policy.
We love happy customers and do our best to maintain a fair and hassle-free customer satisfaction policy. We will gladly repair or replace your item, issue a refund, or negotiate a partial credit.
Just contact us within 30 days of receipt of the item. Explain why the item does not meet your expectations and how you would like us to handle the issue. If your item has been damaged try to include a photograph of the actual damages. We’ll do our absolute best to make you happy.
If you and Trainz decide that the best recourse is to return the item for refund or repair we will send you a pre-paid return call tag at no cost (except for returns due to customer remorse). Make sure to include your contact and order information when you return your items. Once Trainz receives and inspects the items we will repair your item or issue a refund based on the criteria in our full policy.
If they really stand by this, it sounds like they are pretty easy to work with.
What does the word "functional" next to operational status imply?
That it stands perfectly still when voltage is applied?
MisterBeasley I have one dummy F7B unit that I got at a train show. It was just a plain old BB unit, all plastic, with horn hook couplers. I think I paid $15 for it. I think the price tag on the Trainz item was deceptive. $64 for a unit, even with tax and shipping, seems outrageous to me and perhaps should have raised a red flag.
Nowadays, under eBay rules, you can even return an item if you "changed your mind", even if the seller "does not accept returns". Go figure.
I buy often from Trainz. They are honorable people with outstanding customer service. You will have no problem returning the item for a full refund. Whether you can negotiate a partial refund, I cannot say.
Let me add one comment and I don't say this to offend you. Always research the item that you want to purchase before hitting the Buy It Now button. As someone else pointed out, it is a dummy, non-powered, unit.
Quick story. I recently sold a Proto 2000 DCC Ready locomotive that I had bought new and converted to DCC. The title to the listing indicated that fact. My Item Description described the conversion at length including the identity of the specific decoder. Upon delivery to the buyer, he clicks the Return for Refund button. He also sends me a message saying that the loco does not even run. I replied asking if he was by chance trying to run the loco on DC instead of DCC. He replied, asking, what is DCC? What more can I say?
Rich
Alton Junction
The box does not say dummy - that is a failing on Athearn's part.
The list price from Athearn was $44.98......
The give away for those familiar with this product - no little white plastic motor mount nubs in the fuel tank holes - take a close look at the picture of the underframe.
I'm sure you will get a no hassle return.
Sheldon
MisterBeasley I think the price tag on the Trainz item was deceptive. $64 for a unit, even with tax and shipping, seems outrageous to me and perhaps should have raised a red flag.
Nope it is right in line. The OP paid $46.92 for the unit, plus taxes and shipping. That is cheap.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294538268772?hash=item4493d95064%3Ag%3ArSQAAOSwzNJhjFrA&nma=true&si=PMZ%252FV%252FQ0kskdyxF0kEtZqHZPsdE%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Compaired to a new unpowered B unit from Athearn which is $80, plus shipping and taxes. They are also not available by themselves, only in a A/B set, which would require a $219 purchase.
http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=F7A+RND&CatID=THLD
An "expensive model collector"
John-NYBW MisterBeasley I have one dummy F7B unit that I got at a train show. It was just a plain old BB unit, all plastic, with horn hook couplers. I think I paid $15 for it. I think the price tag on the Trainz item was deceptive. $64 for a unit, even with tax and shipping, seems outrageous to me and perhaps should have raised a red flag. The price wouldn't have been outrageous for a powered unit so that wasn't a red flag for me. I don't think this is a BB loco because of the coupler boxes which fit a KD #5. I had lots of old BB F7s and while you could put a KD #5 in them, they didn't really fit correctly. It did come in a blue box but not the kind the old Athearn BBs came in.
The price wouldn't have been outrageous for a powered unit so that wasn't a red flag for me. I don't think this is a BB loco because of the coupler boxes which fit a KD #5. I had lots of old BB F7s and while you could put a KD #5 in them, they didn't really fit correctly. It did come in a blue box but not the kind the old Athearn BBs came in.
It is a Blue Box F7, they simply fixed the coupler box issue years ago when they started selling them RTR, first in the "Ready to Roll" line, and now under the "Roundhouse" line.