Greed. prices, ebay and other confusing issues

[Anonymous]

Several threads with their posts have gotten me to think a bit about prices, greed, ebay etc.

Why is it greed when a seller wants to make a profit, but not greed when we want the cheapest price possible? Is the seller's refusal to drop the price $10 on a loco (thus pocketing $10 more) any different than our refusal to pay $10 more for it (thus keeping $10 in our pocket)?

Why does it seem to be acceptable to pick the brains of a shop owner (be it LHS or something like Tony's Train Exchange) for hours, getting information, getting questions answered, being shown the product, being able to test it, get ideas on how to modify it etc. - then deciding that the seller here is greedy by asking too high of a price and buying the product elsewhere? Would anyone bring a car to a mechanic, have him spend some time showing what exactly would have to be done to repair that car and then go off to Auto Zone to buy the parts?

I've seen posts where folks refuse to even bid on something on ebay if the seller's shipping/handling charge is "way out of line." It seems that if someone is charging a $10.00 s/h fee and the winning bid is $2.00 that's a better deal that someone who ships free but the buy it now price is $13.00.

Why is it that someone that pays what seems to be a high price for something on ebay is "a sap" or "stupid", but when we find something that we've been looking for for a long time and pay a high price for it it is a "success."?

Why is it that a person will call someone that has lots of brass "a show off" but then think nothing of posting that they just purchased 8 Kato locomotives?

Why is it that when we are a seller on ebay, ebay's fees are a sign of greed preventing us from "making a little profit" but if ebay were to refund a part of the fee in a fee revocation would never think of passing it on to the buyer. Wouldn't that make us just as greedy as ebay?

Why does ebay stink just because one can no longer get a brand new Atlas diesel for $5.00?

Just some thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Human nature I guess!

Bob Boudreau

[88gta350]

All those questions can be answered with a single answer. Human nature. Humans are by their very nature self-centered. People know in theory that the universe doesn't revolve around them, but they don't often conduct their daily business with that in mind. It's the me-first attitude that's seen so often and in so many aspects these days. Just look at people's driving habits.

[SilverSpike]

Philosophers have asked the same question for 1,000's of years....... "Why?" Many a man has spent their life trying to answer that simple one word question. Your insights are profound!

With the ever increasing cost of doing business these days, gas, shipping, materials, etc., it is not hard to understand why ebay or other business are charging more for their services and products. And I thought the economy was on the rebound! I'm still waiting to get my windfall!

Ryan

[SpaceMouse]

I'm pretty sensitive to these issues as I am on the other side from most people. I sell high quality vitamins and supplements. People come into the store, pick my brain about which supplements or herbs they should take, then they run to Walmart and buy a cheap version of what I told them. Then they come back to me tell that they took my advice and the products didn't work.

Anyway, I have the prospective businessman when I purchase trains (or anything else.) I shop for the best price when I can, but support the people whose knowledge helps me make an informed purchase.

While I don't mind a little inflation of shipping costs on eBay to hand the price of boxes, transportation, time, etc. I feel a certain mistrust of people who add profit margin in on the back end. I feel that it is sneaky in that an inexperienced buy will overlook the extreme shipping costs and pay more than they expected. I'd rather see the people be up front, and I strive to do business with those people who lay everything out .

[SilverSpike]

Being above board and honest in business dealings is the best policy. I have seen items for sale on the Internet where the price difference is extreme, and then the low-ballers make it up on the S&H cost, and that's just bad business if you ask me! I have to ship items to our company offices around the country and we use UPS, I can check the package rates for any size, weight, shipping method, and destination. I can tell who the cheaters are, and I will never buy from them.

On the other hand, I ordered a back issue of MR from their web site on Sunday and the copy was in my mailbox today, I don't mind paying for the S&H when it is justified. Good customer service example here!

- Ryan

[Anonymous]

I have purchased computer componets for a custom computer... The shipping and handling was expensive as I only had a week to get it all up and running. 40 dollars for Fed Ex from the west coast to my house? No problem. But my mistake was having several instances of shipping that made Fed Ex rich.

Next time Ill have them assemble everything in one shipping cost and fly it to me. I did save money versus retail but the S/H was not cheap.

Some one says "as-is" is not too good. I use that term because to me it literally is "as-is" it aint mint but not junk either. If I think the item had a problem that made me afraid to offer on ebay I would step right up and explain the issue in the description.

I have had sellers do that up front and have won a sale from me due to thier honesty. It helps alot when you need to consider what is fixable and not so easy fix.

The internet is a great tool for information but I think human nature is alot of need to make a buck. If I was to add up my ebay sales and stack it against my orginal cost to buy these items brand new I have either broke even or lost money. That does not bother me.

I once read a email from a buyer who purchased 4 reefers from me. It said that the buyer is very happy that my reefers are now part of the "Block" and I had in my mind a vision of these happy reefers actually being a part of a train for someone to enjoy. Not sitting lonely and unused in a box. To me; hearing that statement is worth far more than the chance to turn a dollar. Money cannot buy happiness.

I take it also in these forums there have been many awesome threads about buying and selling etc etc and I think it is the neatest thing ever. But we need to talk about why people leave mean nasty feed back when a simple email offering a solution to a problem may help both parties instead. To me that is the worst part of any transaction.

[SilverSpike]

You are right HighIron2003ar, but the worst feedback is to not get any at all. Word of mouth is the greatest form of advertising, but it can sting a business too!

The companies that have a dedicated customer service feedback system are usually the ones who respond to consumer demands, complaints, and requests. It's the bad experiences that customers have and don't tell that you can't fix because they are going around telling everyone about it except the person who has the opportunity to fix it!

Ryan

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly

Several threads with their posts have gotten me to think a bit about prices, greed, ebay etc.

Why is it greed when a seller wants to make a profit, but not greed when we want the cheapest price possible? Is the seller's refusal to drop the price $10 on a loco (thus pocketing $10 more) any different than our refusal to pay $10 more for it (thus keeping $10 in our pocket)?

Why does it seem to be acceptable to pick the brains of a shop owner (be it LHS or something like Tony's Train Exchange) for hours, getting information, getting questions answered, being shown the product, being able to test it, get ideas on how to modify it etc. - then deciding that the seller here is greedy by asking too high of a price and buying the product elsewhere? Would anyone bring a car to a mechanic, have him spend some time showing what exactly would have to be done to repair that car and then go off to Auto Zone to buy the parts?

I've seen posts where folks refuse to even bid on something on ebay if the seller's shipping/handling charge is "way out of line." It seems that if someone is charging a $10.00 s/h fee and the winning bid is $2.00 that's a better deal that someone who ships free but the buy it now price is $13.00.

Why is it that someone that pays what seems to be a high price for something on ebay is "a sap" or "stupid", but when we find something that we've been looking for for a long time and pay a high price for it it is a "success."?

Why is it that a person will call someone that has lots of brass "a show off" but then think nothing of posting that they just purchased 8 Kato locomotives?

Why is it that when we are a seller on ebay, ebay's fees are a sign of greed preventing us from "making a little profit" but if ebay were to refund a part of the fee in a fee revocation would never think of passing it on to the buyer. Wouldn't that make us just as greedy as ebay?

Why does ebay stink just because one can no longer get a brand new Atlas diesel for $5.00?

Just some thoughts.

You made good several points. The first engine I bought with my own money was an Athearn F-7 with the old Hi-F (i.e. rubber band) drive. It cost me $6.95 in 1957. If I adjust for inflation to the present time, that would make the cost close to $60 for an engine whose mechanism was crappy and whose trucks castings look like blobs of metal. If I deflate back to 1957, the MSRP for a Genesis F-7 comes out to about $15 or $16 in 1957 dollars. IIRC, the Varney F-3 sold for about $20 in 1957 (roughly $160 today) and compared to today's models, it was a poor rendition of the prototype. The Genesis loco (and its Intermountain equivalent) is a screaming bargain in comparison.

In the late 50's, a Varney 2-8-4 sold for about $50 for a kit (roughly $400 today give or take). That represented approximately 60% of a week's pay for the average wage earner at the time. For the price of a generic kit in '57, now we can buy a sound and DCC equipped prototype specific locomotive from BLI and in a number of cases get change back. What eventually killed Varney and caused Mantua to cheapen its product line around 1959/1960 was the influx of relatively cheap Japanese prototype specific RTR brass. If memory serves, when PFM brought out the Southern Ps-4 in 1959, it sold for $49.50.

As for manufacturers "gouging" us poor slobs, there's a limit on what the traffic will bear and a fairly low one at that. The model railroad hobby business is not a significant part of the overall US economy. It never has nor will it ever be. Anybody who thinks he can become the next Donald Trump by going into the model railroad biz was not only napping in Econ 1A, but was positively comatose.

When I was a kid oh so many years ago, I thought someone who had more than 4 or 5 locomotives in his roster was positively rolling in money. Now it seems that no one is satisfied unless their locomotive and rolling stock roster doesn't at a minimum exceed that of the currrent Kansas City Southern.

One of the first kits I put together was a Silver Streak caboose (essentially same prototype as Walther's SP C30-1 currently available in RTR plastic). Only the sides were painted. The cupola, end walls and window inserts were cast metal and had to have the flash filed off. As I recall, the thing took me about 10-12 hours to put together much of which was cleaning up flash from the castings. That's after painting the underframe, roof, ends, cupola and the bits and pieces of wire for the handrails. The trucks had to be assembled. Ever try and find a phosphor bronze leaf spring on a spatter linoleum floor? I've forgotten what the price of the kit was, but I think it was in the $4.00 range including trucks but no working couplers (IIRC, dummies were included). Funny thing is, that kit cost me more in comparison than the Walthers RTR model I bought a few months ago.

One of the funnier things about this whole controversy is that RTR models have been the backbone of the Continental European model railroad industry from the beginning and they ain't cheap. Never have been at least from the standpoint of the European modeler. But then, they get highly detailed, smoothly running equipment for their euros. In fact, I'd say they get brass detail for significantly less than brass prices.

As for the Brits, they seem to be the holdouts on RTR equipment even though there is a reasonably healthy market for the likes of Hornby and Bachmann Branchlines. Ever priced a locomotive kit from DJH? DJH tried to enter the US market in the late 1980's with some pretty good kits that, while not easy to put together (or cheap), were fairly straightforward for anyone who'd ever built a steam locomotive. DJH dropped the line in the early 90's as the demand just wasn't there. Take a look at http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3030. This is a starter kit and it appears to be on sale as the recommended retail price equates to $164 USD (sale price $131). And that kit includes everything. Most other DJH kits leave the wheelsets and mechanism out as there are several scale/gauge combinations in GB. By the time you get the motor/gears, wheel sets, paint and decals for a BR standard class 7 4-6-2 http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3020, you'll end up paying close to $400 USD for the thing.

We've got it easy.

Andre

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon

....In the late 50's, a Varney 2-8-4 sold for about $50 for a kit (roughly $400 today give or take). That represented approximately 60% of a week's pay for the average wage earner at the time. For the price of a generic kit in '57, now we can buy a sound and DCC equipped prototype specific locomotive from BLI and in a number of cases get change back. What eventually killed Varney and caused Mantua to cheapen its product line around 1959/1960 was the influx of relatively cheap Japanese prototype specific RTR brass. If memory serves, when PFM brought out the Southern Ps-4 in 1959, it sold for $49.50.

As We've got it easy.....

Andre

I purchased one of those PFM kits in 1960 and had to put it on layaway because their wasn't enought money to pay cash for it. I had already purchased a Tenshodo 0-8-0 the same way, $5.00 per week.

The Varney kit was available in sections, I think that their were four sections. When you purchased a section it might take you several weeks to get it together and then you'd saved enough money to buy the next section.

Thinks are a lot better now then back when. The good old days are last week

Bob

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TEFFY

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon

....In the late 50's, a Varney 2-8-4 sold for about $50 for a kit (roughly $400 today give or take). That represented approximately 60% of a week's pay for the average wage earner at the time. For the price of a generic kit in '57, now we can buy a sound and DCC equipped prototype specific locomotive from BLI and in a number of cases get change back. What eventually killed Varney and caused Mantua to cheapen its product line around 1959/1960 was the influx of relatively cheap Japanese prototype specific RTR brass. If memory serves, when PFM brought out the Southern Ps-4 in 1959, it sold for $49.50.

As We've got it easy.....

Andre

I purchased one of those PFM kits in 1960 and had to put it on layaway because their wasn't enought money to pay cash for it. I had already purchased a Tenshodo 0-8-0 the same way, $5.00 per week.

The Varney kit was available in sections, I think that their were four sections. When you purchased a section it might take you several weeks to get it together and then you'd saved enough money to buy the next section.

Thinks are a lot better now then back when. The good old days are last week

Bob

We sure do. If you deflate a $30 RTR plastic boxcar back to 1957 prices, it comes out to less than $4. Furthermore, current offerings have incredible (and separate) detail compared to their 1957 equivalents. The first Athearn plastic kit I bought was a D&LW boxcar for $1.29 (about $10 today). There was no separate detail except for the brake wheel. The trucks had these funny rubber inserts that served in lieu of actual truck springs (and you had to assemble the trucks). Current plastic offerings from Walthers, IM, Red Caboose, etc. are orders of magnitude better than even what was sold as craftsman kits back then.

Andre

[Anonymous]

I don't begrudge anyone trying to make a buck! However, it don't make sense to me to pay more for something than I can get elsewhere for cheaper. I agree, going to a supplier and asking all kinds of questions and then going elsewhere to buy something is in poor taste and I don't do that. I am loyal to companies whom treat me fairly. Treat fairly lest ye be ill treated!

My thoughts on my thread about Ebay was that there are more commercial seller there now, then there was a couple years ago. I don't have any problems with this and If these guys can sell their wares on Ebay for MSRP more power to them! I will, however, be shopping elsewhere. A come-on used is "Win multiple auctions and we will combine shipping". Great, except, now this creates a reason to overbid so you can combine shipping. It's at this point that a buyer really should look at buying from an online supplier as; if the products are in stock, you are guaranteed combined shipping.

I think it is very important we all treat each other fairly! Less important is saving a few bucks and even less important a few cents!

[Don Gibson]

D.Kelly

Another Kelly (Walt) may have said it best in his Comic strip 'POGO'

"We has met the enemy and they is us".


Such wisdom.

[Anonymous]

Don,

That's always been one of my favorite quotes.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

D.Kelly

Another Kelly (Walt) may have said it best in his Comic strip 'POGO'

"We has met the enemy and they is us".


Such wisdom.

That's one of my favorites as well, Don. However, there is a considerable mass of people out there (youngsters for the most part) who have no idea who Walt Kelly was let alone such characters as:

Pogo
Churchy La Femme
Albert the Alligator
Porky Pine
Howland Owl
Beauregard Hound
Sarcophagus MacCabre
Deacon Mushrat

Hmm. How did we get from cheap trains to the cartoons of Walt Kelly?

"Deck us all with Boston Charlie,
Walla Walla, Washington and Kalamazoo.
Nora's freezing on the trolley,
Swaller dollar cauliflower, alley garoo....."

http://www.pogopossum.com/deckus.htm

I miss Walt.

Andre

[Anonymous]

I've seen people pay $2.00 to $8.00 more for a decoder then they could get it from Loy's Toys. Buying it from Loy's also gets them a warrenty and a host of answers to many questions. But this is the way of eBay.

The only way to put a value on OOP brass or other items is what will I pay. I'm sure not going to pay more then Caboose Hobbies wants for the same item.

Bob

[dinwitty]

heh, I've been planning my layout and have been building my roster, and Ebay has suddenly become a focal point for buying, and found some great stuff. And good bargains.

but remember ebay is auctioning, the price goes wherever.

Like I bid on some locos I really wanted and won a few or some of them,
and the prices went up, and then there are some freight cars I am looking for, cheap, and maybe no bids and I let them pass on... ..duh...

welll maybe because I will be buying a winton 2-6-6-6 I have to budget careflully as the price is 400 bucks...

but then there are ebayers out there with tons of money and don't care...

an HO 2-8-8-4 DM&IR went over 2000 bucks, and starting price was over 1000 bucks... duh

if I ever pay that price for HO brass I think I will switch to 1 1/2 inch scale live steam and build my own 2-8-8-4....

if you look carefully you will find good bargains, and then...

EBAY is a service so they can charge the fees, and I heard they went up,
but to me it still seems very reasonable at least for the hobby area.

[Anonymous]

If you are going to compare prices today to prices "back then", it's not a fair comparison. Manufacturing methods have changed so much that it takes less time and work to do more. Some claim that shipping has gone up too. Well, I own a small (shrinking???) trucking company, and I have not been able to increase my rates since 9/11/2001, except for a few pennies to cover the fuel increase. Most trucking companies are in the same boat.
In 1979, I ordered a new Cutlass Supreme, loaded, for around $7k. I was making $22k a year. If someone is working that same line of work now, they are probably making $40-50k, but that car is now $30-35k. The income hasn't quite doubled, but the car has risen to 4 or 5 times the cost.
Things go up, some with inflation, some because noone thinks before they spend. A new car used to be an everyday necessity when I was growing up. Now the only way many can afford a new car is to lease one, because they can't afford the payments of a purchase. Prices rise to what the market will bear, but the market is becoming full of idiots that think owning something is much more valuable than actually getting a good deal.

[CNJ831]

Enduringexp is quite correct. The value of my home, purchased in 1970, has increased an amazing 12-fold to date but my salary only by 3-fold. Most of this increase has come in the past 15 years. For the same reason, it is not valid to reach back to 1970 hobby prices and compare them to todays figures, invoking inflation to justify them (inflation figures/CPI values don't apply to the pricing of items bought with disposable income anyway). Just like my house, most of the dramatic price increases in the model train world have occured very recently...for the most part since 1990 and are still rising steeply. I'm quite sure that all high-end locomotives will command $500+ in the very near future, with some passing the $1k mark.

I'd also venture that almost all hobby purchases made in 1970 or earlier were via cash, while today I believe the high-end items are bought to a great extent with credit cards. The manufacturers have seen that many consumers are willing to pay almost any price for a right now purchase, rather than waiting and saving up for an item. So why not charge the limit when selling to these easy marks?

CNJ831