NHTXHow could a state impose a regulation governing a vehicle used in interstate commerce, on private property?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Act_of_1887
States have long exercised their regulatory reach on the railroads. In 1853 Texas required any railroad operating in the state to be headquartered IN the state of Texas.
https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/railroads
Often, states had laws regulating crew size, weather a caboose could be occupied when a helper locomotive is in use and, of course, many regulations for operations through cities.
Remember the man on horseback with a flag proceeding each train through town? I wonder if laws like that are still on the books in some places.
I've been on passenger trains when the liquor cabinet had to be locked up in dining and lounge cars when passing through "dry" counties. Sometimes drinks could be purchased beforehand, other counties required that ALL alcoholic beverages had to be consumed or disposed of before entering the county. Sometimes the entire state (Oklahoma!).
Even into the Amtrak era:
On July 18, 1972, Amtrak’s Texas Chief train was boarded by state and local police when it pulled into Oklahoma City. Liquor was confiscated and the lounge car attendant was arrested, jailed overnight, and charged the next day under a law against operating an “open saloon” — i.e., selling alcohol for on-premises consumption.
https://www.straightdope.com/21344044/did-the-railroads-leave-oklahoma-because-it-wouldn-t-allow-liquor-sales-on-trains
Regards, Ed
NHTX How could a state impose a regulation governing a vehicle used in interstate commerce, on private property?
How could a state impose a regulation governing a vehicle used in interstate commerce, on private property?
The 9th and 10th Amendment - Basically, any power not specificly given to the Federal Government by the Constitution, is resevered to the people and the States.
Now, for last 150 years or so, every branch of the Federal Government has used the "commerce clause" to walk all over these powers reserved to the states. But many state laws effecting the railroads stood unchallenged for many decades.
And it is not interstate commerce until it crosses the state line with cargo. This is not a forgone conclusion for every load of freight just because you are in the railroad business.
And the railroads used this various times to actually get around federal regulation.
When piggyback first started, federally regulated freight rates in both trucking and railroading limited the growth of the service. A number of railroads argued that if they picked up cargo, and delivered the cargo, in the same state, without crossing state lnes, they were not subject to Federal regulatory rate controls. Controls that not only prevented overcharging, but also "undercharging".
Those rate controls actually required them to charge more and thereby not be competitive.
So, for example, the Southern Pacific moved piggyback trains up and down the California coast, set up their own trucking company for pickups an deliveries of the trailers moved by rail, that never left the state, and charged whatever was profitable, not the inflated trucking/transfer rates set up by the ICC to protect the truckers.
Sheldon
Lastspikemike In Canada railroads connected across Provincial boundaries cannot be regulated by Provincial authorities. Some Provinces developed their own internal railroads to sidestep this constitutional block. It seems the lawyers didn't understand how interchange tracks always have to actually connect two tracks....
In Canada railroads connected across Provincial boundaries cannot be regulated by Provincial authorities. Some Provinces developed their own internal railroads to sidestep this constitutional block.
It seems the lawyers didn't understand how interchange tracks always have to actually connect two tracks....
As per my post above, it was once a little different here, not so much today.
dehusman SeeYou190 There is a "rule" that says cabooses are to be painted red. However, since these rules only apply to cars that are interchanged between railroads, it had very little effect on what color cabooses were actually painted. There is no such rule. Cabooses have been painted a wide variety of colors right from the beginning. Many early cabooses were painted yellow. Bright red cabooses have been used very early. It is compeletly up to the railroads and how much they want to spend on painting cabooses.
SeeYou190 There is a "rule" that says cabooses are to be painted red. However, since these rules only apply to cars that are interchanged between railroads, it had very little effect on what color cabooses were actually painted.
There is no such rule. Cabooses have been painted a wide variety of colors right from the beginning. Many early cabooses were painted yellow. Bright red cabooses have been used very early. It is compeletly up to the railroads and how much they want to spend on painting cabooses.
Yellow was popular for cabooses and passenger cars in the late 1800's and into the 20th century.
Bright red did seem to dominate the first half of the 20th century. But in the 50's that started to change quickly.
Southern Pacific and Burlington had silver cabooses pretty early after WWII, don't know the exact years.
C&O had yellow before the 50's were over.
B&O went blue early in the 60's.
Here on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL grey is the color of choice.
More info - many major cities, especially in the east, had smoke ordinances, noise ordinances, special safety rules, going way back.
As Ed mentioned some states had crew size and other safety regulations. Some had speed limit and train length restrictions. And for many years the Federal courts protected these state/local powers.
Being aware of the penchant regulatory bodies have for imposing what they feel is benevolent regulation, supposing the state of Indiana declares cabooses shall be red, while Illinois declares, they shall be yellow, and Wisconsin declares, they shall be orange. What would a Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Railroad (Milwaukee Road) which owned trackage in all three states do, when it came to a state border?
Speed, smoke, noise, crew size regulation make sense to a degree but something as mundane as the color of an object that by purpose and design crosses multiple jurisdictions in its daily use, is a perfect illustration of why a central body must intervene. If municipalities regulated the Milwaukee Road's caboose colors as they saw fit, the MILW would have had to change cabooses at each state line or, have one of each color on the train. There are other equally ridiculous solutions to the theoretical situation. The whole point was to illustrate how absurd the regulatory entities can become when they are left to run amuck.
NHTXsupposing the state of Indiana declares cabooses shall be red, while Illinois declares, they shall be yellow, and Wisconsin declares, they shall be orange. What would a Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Railroad (Milwaukee Road) which owned trackage in all three states do, when it came to a state border?
Easy. Half an hour after such a law was passed in each state, they'd go to court and have the law or rule thrown out. It is true states have a lot of power - like whether or not to have the death penalty, but there is zero chance that any federal, state, or local government agency ever passed a law or created a rule about what color a caboose could be. It's just nonsense.
Basically, I guess, the federal government regulates interstate commerce, which more or less means what railroads do with each other and their customers. What a railroad can or can't do within each state is largely up to that state...within limits.
If you look closely at a Walthers HO DM&IR wood caboose, you can see that the real caboose looks kinda like a four-wheel bobber caboose with part of another tacked on to make a longer car. That's because that's what they originally were. Minnesota's Railway Act of 1911 (IIRC) said all cabooses had to be at least 24' long, and have at least two 4-wheel trucks. So railroads in Minnesota that had bobbers - like the DM&IR's predecesor roads (DM&N, D&IR) put two bobbers together to make one caboose. Minnesota also set state regulations regarding things like the size of loading docks, giving a conductor a right to arrest the same as a sheriff of the county the train was in, and outlawed building of common carrier narrow-gauge lines.
mthobbiesCheck out the Red Caboose Motel in Strasburg PA. They have just about every color caboose imaginable. All different road names. And you can sleep in them
I spent a happy weekend there. Got in late Friday afternoon and went to a Pennsylvania Dutch place for dinner - Chicken and Waffles with Cream Gravy and Shoofly Pie washed down with Kaffee for dessert. Watched some TV - mounted in the cabin car's pot belly stove - then to bed. Up early the next morning, got cleaned up in the bathroom mounted under the cupola, then had a hearty breakfast in the Motel's dining car (which rocked when the sound of a passing train - piped over the PA system - was loudest)
Then on to a day spent railfanning the Strasburg, followed the next day by a solid breakfast in the dining car and a day spent in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania and the Toy Train Museum.
Back on the road at sundown after a great experience - to include the Motel
Gotta go back....
Since my railroad is freelanced, I could choose any color I wanted but I always liked the idea of a bright red caboose so that's what I chose. Rather than paint my cabeese, I built my fleet using Atlas cabeese in various roadnames that had bright red bodies and black roofs. I then just relettered them for my own road and did some light weathering. I remember reading John Armstrong's first book on layout design and learned that each crew had it's own caboose assigned to them which required more cabeese than what would otherwise be necessary. I put that into practice but discovered I had a few more cabeese than the layout could accomodate. At various times in the operating session, I would have too many freight trains having terminated in my main yard rather than being on the road or in the staging yards and my caboose tracks would overflow. I ended up pulling a couple off the layout to alleviate this problem.
I had planned to build an AMB Laserkit of an Gulf, Mobile & Ohio caboose. The kit contains painting instructions for the mid-60s, bright red with white or yellow handrails. However, I needed the paint scheme for the early 50s, and all I could find were b/w pictures. Still, they already showed that the handrails were more silvery than a bright color. Thus, I went to the experts and contacted the GM&O Historical Society. They responded immediately in a very detailed manner; I especially like the "Coca-Cola Red" story:
"GM&O was not very standardized so you see numerous variations once you start looking closely. Here's some examples:
DrW"GM&O was not very standardized so you see numerous variations
I bought a brass caboose from a GM&O modeller.
The story he gave me was that he painted it the way that the decal sheet instructed. Then he found pictures of similar cabooses, and none of them matched the way this one was lettered.
That was why he was selling it.
I intend to strip it and repaint it for my SGRR, but I have about a half dozen unpainted examples to do first.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Because I wanted a spray can on line, I ended up with boxcar brown. It's not as red as I wanted, but it's okay in a pinch. Thanks for all the response.
I use Tamiya TS-49 "Bright Red" in the spray can for cabooses. Their "Fine Surface Primer (Oxide Red)" is a good general boxcar red color; TS-1 "Red Brown" is good for more brownish-red boxcars.
Most hobby shops (brick-and-mortar and online) carry Tamiya paint.
A good thing about Tamiya - besides the fact that their spray cans result in a finer spray than hardware store "rattle cans" made for painting patio furniture etc. - is that you can also buy small jars of the same exact colors, so you can touch up paint where necessary.
mreagant Is it caboose red (brown?) That was widely used rather than the much more red on cabooses for many railroads. If so, is it available in a spray can?
Is it caboose red (brown?) That was widely used rather than the much more red on cabooses for many railroads. If so, is it available in a spray can?
Back before Mcginnis, the Boston and Maine took a cheap cut. Cabeese were painted box car red (the cheapest paint) except for the ends, which were painted bright red. The red helped with one of the caboose missions, namely marking the end of a train, and making it easier for overtaking trains to see the train ahead of them.
I use red auto primer from a rattle can for box car red. Spray the entire car, ends and all. The big box stores (Wallymart, Home Despot, Lowes) carry a line of rattle cans (Krylon or Rustoleum) that always has a good bright red. Mask the caboose and spray the ends with red. Bright red goes on well over red auto primer.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
The New Haven had a few black cabooses:https://newrr.com/Caboose/imag000.jpg
At least one NE-5 and several NE-6's were painted all-black after the arrival of Pres. Pat McGinnis in the mid-1950s, but the unions complained about visibility when making reverse moves. So the NH modified the scheme to paint the ends white with orange doors and window frames. Not too many NH cabooses got the black paint; perhaps half a dozen or so. They stayed black until PC and CR re-painted them.At the same time these were being painted black, the NH was also painting cabooses McGinnis orange-red (or red-orange).https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ff/26/78/ff26789d8b6bc1e2a4ffdf56f6743f39.jpg
Originally, these steel cabooses were painted Caboose Red on the NH.
Paul3 McGinnis orange-red (or red-orange).
Known as Socony Red
New Haven Socony Red ModelFlex Railroad Airbrush Spray Paints - 16-183 - New Haven Socony Red Paint, New Haven Socony Red Color, Badger ModelFlex Railroad Spray Paint, B61219 - Art-Paints.com
BTW the plural of caboose is cabooses. I wonder sometimes reading posts if there are a lot of younger people here who don't realize "cabeese" was a word someone made up as a joke some decades back - not sure if it started with an MR article, or someone's NMRA presentation, or what.