About 35 years ago I acquire an unpainted brass 2-6-6-2 logging steamer as part of an estate sale. I had no specific plans for it but I thought one day I might actually put it to use. I ran it only occasionally on my old DC layout. I recently came across it as part of my effort to unload a lot of equipment I had acquired over the past 40+ years that don't fit the current theme of my fictional railroad and were just taking up space. I ran it on my DCC layout using address 00 and it still runs reasonably well. I thought it might be put to use as my fictional railroad set in 1956 still runs lots of steamers, some of which are castoffs from railroads that had dieselized by that date. To do that would require painting it and installing a decoder, preferably with sound, but this seems like it would be a daunting task and something I could easily screw up. My question is if there are companies or individuals who do this type of work for a fee. I'd like to put this loco on my roster but I'm afraid if I were to attempt to upgrade it, I might end up destroying it instead.
There are people who do this type of work, but the wait is very long and the costs are very high. Painting brass is an art form and one that is quickly vanishing from the ranks of model railroaders. Those who are able to paint nicely and do it for others get booked up, usually a year or more in advance. This has caused a lot of burnout among the custom painters. The engine, most likely a NWSL(Northwest Short Line) import will need a can motor installed so that DCC/Sound can be installed. A "keep alive" circuit is also highly recommended. If you google search brass train custom painters, you will find several websites for those that do this kind of work. I would take some pictures then email each person and inquire to costs to have the model painted, DCC/Sound installed, working lights, ect. and include the pics of the model to show what you have. Good Luck. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
John,
Does it have an open frame motor or a can motor? Even some brass locomotives from the late 70s had can motors.
If it already comes with a can motor then that's a major plus. I converted a NJ Custom Brass 2-6-6-2 Mallet to DCC, added two speakers inside the boiler (along with the decoder) and an SMD LED to mimic a flickering firebox. It took a bit of thinking through to do all that but I got it to fit and it runs and works great. The only thing left to accomplish is to add the front headlight.
I haven't painted it for my road yet. Maybe someday. The important thing is that it runs well.
If you've successfully done a sound install before then doing one in a brass locomotive isn't that much different. You just have to isolate the motor brushes from the frame and wire in your decoder (& speakers). The challenge is making sure everything will fit when you put it back together...but it's that way with any DCC install.
And, I'm going to disagree with Mike: If you have a 2-6-6-2 with good pick-up, you shouldn't need a keep-alive module since the frame (and your pick-up length) is quite long. Therefore, you shouldn't experience hesitation - i.e. unless you trackwork is dirty and/or your track wiring is minimal or spotty. If that's the case then a keep-alive would be beneficial...but it's not necessary.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
John-NYBWMy question is if there are companies or individuals who do this type of work for a fee.
The answer is yes, there are companies that do this.
Others have explained some of the "cons" for contracting this out.
I have never installed DCC in a brass locomotive, but I have modified some to run with electrical pick-up and lighting wiring all contained in the tender. I would approach a DCC installation the same way. Wire all pickup to the tender wheels and run four wires to the boiler, two for the motor and two for the headlight.
I am not suggesting this is the best method, just sharing what has worked for me, and is not too difficult.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I suspect his is a tank Mallet as most logging engines were in the 2-6-6-2 unless its a PFM Sierra, pics would help establish what he has. Then we can get an idea and game plan to what that engine would need. Pretty much any logging Mallet will NOT have a can motor unless previously upgraded. Most all came long before the builders started using them in that type of model. If the OP can post up some pics of the model that would be of great help. A Keep Alive really does away with needing to try and set up power pickup on extra wheels. And on a tank Mallet there is precious little space to accomplish this anyways( I know as I have owned a couple of the NWSL 2-6-6-2 engines and one of the PFM Sierra 2-6-6-2's with a tender). Both ran well with the stock power pickup, a can motor, DCC with Keep Alive would be my direction if I was doing a rework for someone. They really are straight forward to take apart and work on, I would say much easier than the modern plastic/diecast steamers from BLI ect. Its the painting thats much harder to pull off nicely. Mike
I would reccomend contacting your LHS as some do this work or know of someone who does if you live in a decent sized city. Last year I purchased 3 brass locos. Two had can motors but needed servicing. I had motor decoders installed and headlights changed to LED. The cost was $100 each and they both run beautifully now. The third needed a can motor and I had a Tsunami2 decoder and keepalive installed for a cost of $300. It crawls on speed step one. He also paints and the cost is $200-300 depending on the work involed. This fellow has been working on brass for over 40 years and truly is an expert so they are around. I won't give out his name on the forum.
CN Charlie
emdmike Pretty much any logging Mallet will NOT have a can motor unless previously upgraded. Most all came long before the builders started using them in that type of model.
I have an old United/PFM SOUTHERN PS4 4-6-2 that draws 1.4 amps with its open frame motor.
It runs fine, and it is no problem for my Troller 2.5 DC power packs. I would imagine it would require a motor upgrade for DCC to be installed.
Thanks to all who replied. For starters there is no chance I would undertake this project myself. Typically when I do something for the first time, I screw it up badly. Since this is a one and done project, that approach is unlikely to yield good results.
The reason I say it is a logging loco is I remember doing some research on it several decades ago and was told that. I also learned the retail value of it was estimated at $150. That might have gone up some since then. I acquired it about 35 years ago but I have no idea how old it was when I bought it. It had no box and was not shiny new. For all I know it could be 50 years old or more. I'm pressed for time right now but will try to post some pictures this evening. For now it looks very much like this offering on ebay:
United Models/PFM HO Scale BRASS Sierra RR 2-6-6-2 Mallet Steam Loco/Tender | eBay
For all I know, it could be the same make as my loco.
In addition to asking at the LHS, contact the local (or as near as local as you can find), NMRA chapter in your area and inquire about a local painter/fixer. Keep expanding the search area until you find one. They are out there (I know a couple). Thoroughly vet anyone you find and make sure that they are completing projects for customers in a timely fashion. Expect to wait once you locate an individual.
In general, test the loco thoroughly on DC first before making any decisions about what to do in terms of decoder installation. The United/PFM Sierras can be good runners with old motors although a new can will run better. They also have reliable, but noisy drive trains. Re-motoring is relatively easy, reworking the drive train is not.
If the loco runs well and doesn’t stall or have other issues, I would leave the electrical pick-up scheme as it is and install a two-amp decoder, speaker and a keep alive in the tender. You have room for all of the components and the keep alive is extra insurance.
I have done sound/DCC installs in the Sierra and other logging articulateds and I haven’t had to add extra pick up to most of them due to the long wheel base pick up capacity. I use the two-amp decoders because they aren’t much bigger (or expensive) than the one-amp versions and they hold up better in often finicky old brass locos.
Good luck with the project,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
While my layout is DC, I have done a couple of DCC installations for friends - they're not that difficult, but I'm totally baffled by the programming procedure - it seems to me a lot of gobbletygook compared to DC. The latest one was for a dead rail locomotive.
Painting and decal work shouldn't be at all intimidating - do it and you'll see.
John-NYBWFor starters there is no chance I would undertake this project myself. Typically when I do something for the first time, I screw it up badly.
As for painting and lettering, I'd suggest that you do it yourself. When you do screw it up, that's one that you can cross of your "it-always-goes-wrong-on-my-first-attempt" list, then clean-up your screw-up and do it properly...perfectly do-able because it then won't be your first attempt.
You could use an airbrush or good quality (Tamiya) spray cans, or a brush. If you're convinced that you'll screw-it-up, use a roller, and you'll quickly learn what a real screw-up is like.
Have some confidence in yourself...everything we do for the first time can be scary, but running away from it gains you nothing but more fear.
Personally, my fear would be in the costs to have someone else do it.
Wayne
doctorwayneI have done a couple of DCC installations for friends - they're not that difficult, but I'm totally baffled by the programming procedure - it seems to me a lot of gobbletygook compared to DC.
Perfectly stated.
Thankfully that's not the case with NCE systems. It's quite intuitive - even doing it the first time.
doctorwayne While my layout is DC, I have done a couple of DCC installations for friends - they're not that difficult, but I'm totally baffled by the programming procedure - it seems to me a lot of gobbletygook compared to DC. The latest one was for a dead rail locomotive. Painting and decal work shouldn't be at all intimidating - do it and you'll see. John-NYBW For starters there is no chance I would undertake this project myself. Typically when I do something for the first time, I screw it up badly. As for painting and lettering, I'd suggest that you do it yourself. When you do screw it up, that's one that you can cross of your "it-always-goes-wrong-on-my-first-attempt" list, then clean-up your screw-up and do it properly...perfectly do-able because it then won't be your first attempt. You could use an airbrush or good quality (Tamiya) spray cans, or a brush. If you're convinced that you'll screw-it-up, use a roller, and you'll quickly learn what a real screw-up is like. Have some confidence in yourself...everything we do for the first time can be scary, but running away from it gains you nothing but more fear. Personally, my fear would be in the costs to have someone else do it. Wayne
John-NYBW For starters there is no chance I would undertake this project myself. Typically when I do something for the first time, I screw it up badly.
If painting and upgrading this locomotive would be something I would do again in the future, it might be worthwhile to learn the skill to do it but as I mentioned in the OP, this is a one-and-done endeavor. What good does it do me to learn by trial and error if I screw up my one and only attempt at it. I'll end up with an unusable loco for my efforts. Painting isn't the part that concerns me. It's disassembling the loco which will be necessary for painting as well as decoder installation. This is the only brass loco I own and I have no experience working with the insides of one. I have done decoder and speaker installations with diesels with varying degrees of success. My first attempts did not go well and I roasted a few decoders in the process. There are some things that are better left to experts and this seems like one of those things to me.
I agree with you about programming decoders. I have done very little with advanced functions and the possibilities make my head spin. I don't need those advanced functions and most of my programming efforts have been to disable some of the functions that newer high end decoders come with. For example, I bought a WOW-Sound decoder whose default settings required the brake to be applied separately from throttling down. Without the brake, the loco would coast for over 20 feet in HO. It has a setting that allows it to function like a basic decoder and I programmed it to do just that. I know some modeler's are fascinated by all the possibilities available with modern DCC decoders but I prefer KISS (keep it simple, stupid). I want a decoder that starts and stops my locos in response to how slowly or quickly I turn the throttle. I'm happy with generic whistles on my steamers and horns on diesels. I like having the chuff on my steamers and having it synced with the speed. Other than that, I have no interest in delving into all the other capabilities DCC offers.
LastspikemikeThere's that great gag in Star Trek the Movie where Scottie is confronted with a very old computer that does not respond to voice command. He treats the mouse as a microphone. Given how far into the future that's supposed to be the gag works on several levels.
Ummm...
That scene was actually in Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home, not Star Trek, The Motion Picture. Star Trek IV took place 265 years from now, or 300 years from 1986 when the scene you describe took place.
Stick to what you know.
Lastspikemike The main problem with programming DCC is the software is very old by today's standards. There is no real interface between what the chip needs to know and your fingers typing in the numbers.
The main problem with programming DCC is the software is very old by today's standards. There is no real interface between what the chip needs to know and your fingers typing in the numbers.
DCC seems complex but it's the opposite. It's confusing in part because it's so simple as a software system.
The solution is to use the decoder maker's "look up chart". I call it that because actual general computer programming also involves coding the processor to go "look up" some value and perform a calculation. The decoder maker does all that hexadecimal conversion stuff for you. You are the processor that must use the look up table, there's no user interface to do that for you.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
PruittAgain, there is - JMRI. It makes changing speed curves and all that other stuff easy to do. Setting it up requires a bit of work and knowledge, but once up and running it's simplicity itself to use.
My DC controller can change speed curves with a movement of the speed-control knob...even a brain-dead operator can easily make it work.
Hi there. If you can't find a pro, you might want to do a temporary paint job, as suggested earlier. This is probably a good engine to start with if you want to try upgrading and painting a brass engine. Logging companies were typically not too fussy about the paint on their engines (as long as it's black...), so it would not be too difficult. By the way, many companies did keep their engines clean - I find that many modelers over-weather their logging engines.
Black auto primer can to the job. As mentioned earlier, it's not a one-way deal - it can be easily removed later. I suggest you remove the boiler and paint it separately. You can also paint the tender with the can - just protect the wheels with masking tape. A pro would also dismantle the power train and the side rods, but you can brushpaint the frame if you don't want to risk that. Several light coats, and try to pass the brush only once or twice. A good brush makes a huge difference.
I find the biggest challenge in re-assembling brass engines is putting back in those tiny screws. The best trick I found is to put a dap of silicone on the screw driver to hold the screw. Alway work deep on your work bench to prevent a drop - I don't know how clean your work area is, but in my case, finding a tiny screw on my basement floor is HELL. Line up little plastic boxes and place the screws in them, in the order of your engine (left boxes hold the front side of the engine parts). Some people take pictures.
All parts should be thoroughly cleaned - warm soap and water works. Auto primer paint is not fussy... Try not to manipulate the outside of the boiler, the oils on your fingers will leave marks. If there is tarnish, you can use a dremel with soft brushes, at low speed, to remove it. Go easy on that. A little tarnish in the corners is not a problem, as long as it's not thick or crusty. When totally dry, paint with the rattle can. If you are not used to doing this, practice on an old boxcar. Touch up using a brush.
You can continue using your original motor at address zero. Remove it from the track when not in use. The worse thing that can happen is a bit of smoke and potential damage to the motor. If you want to convert to DCC, you should change the motor. It is possible to keep the original motor and convert to DCC. You can also change the magnets. Ask the question if that's the preferred route, I'm not the best at addressing that point, some members here can explain the process. In my opinion, it's hard to get good motor control with an old open-frame motor.
The two most important commands in DCC is the reset (to default values), and CV1 (address number) to give your engine a two-digit number of your choice. In most cases, that is sufficient to get you going. If something goes wonky, reset and CV1. Not rocket science... In the majority of cases, it will be OK.
Simon
Try All Brass Backshop. He has done 4 brass engines for me and I am very satisfied.
snjroyI find the biggest challenge in re-assembling brass engines is putting back in those tiny screws. The best trick I found is to put a dap of silicone on the screw driver to hold the screw.
Good tip. I will give it a try.
I have a brass locomotive I took apart and painted a couple of years ago. When I finally go to reassembling it, I will be relying on help from some experts in here.
Kevin, I see that you are doing everthing by the book... I truly admire that. Because I'm NOT an expert, I don't dissasemble everything when I paint steam engines. Dissassembling-reassembling linkages and re-quartering is very painful for me. Handbrushing these parts is good enough for my old eyes.
snjroyKevin, I see that you are doing everthing by the book... I truly admire that. Because I'm NOT an expert, I don't dissasemble everything when I paint steam engines. Dissassembling-reassembling linkages and re-quartering is very painful for me. Handbrushing these parts is good enough for my old eyes.
Thanks Simon.
I did not intend to leave this model disassembled this long... but things happen.
All the parts are carefully stored in one of my project boxes.
I did not disassemble the main rods from all of the drivers. I did take the valve gear apart because it would not come out of the frame as one piece.
Let me say this one more time. I am not painting this loco myself under any circumstance.
John, if you google search "brass train custom painters" you will get several options. Your best bet is to send each a message and get a quote to get done what you wish done to the model. Most every site has examples of the painters work and what all they are able to do in the upgrade dept like remotor, regear, DCC ect. The NWSL Hi-Lo gear box set up is nice in the Sierra as far as quieting down the drive. But a major job to install and that adds greatly to the expense. I guess how much you spend is up to you in the end and depends on how much you want to run it. Just a can motor driving the original spur reduction gearing is pretty simple job for the technican to install. A total regear is a whole new ball game. Sierras tend to fetch about $225 to 250 without a box and much more with the box or if its a later run. They are bullet proof models and a great one to invest some $$ into so you can enjoy it on your layout. Start with getting ahold of the painters and see how deep your gonna get $$ wise. Thats your first step. Mike