Folks, I've bought some of the new Bachamnn HO scale Amfleet passenger cars as I was fed up with the Walthers cars, included their latest run.
Out of the box, they look great, with lights. However, these cars do not roll well. I've added graphite to the wheels where they meet the inside frame (unlike a standard passenger car), and they still don't roll well. They have some type of drag on them preventing them from rolling like any other type of passenger or freight car!
At first I took the 5 cars and added them to an Athearn P42 engine. The engine, on straight track; struggled. I thought maybe it was the engine, so I took out an Intermountain ES44 for the inquisitve mind, and it struggled to pull the 5, slipping the same wy the P42 did. Put 2 P42's on it, and while it pulled the cars, no where with the ease as one engine should. I have Kato passenger cars that run much better than these cars.
Has anyone had any success trying to alleviate the drag on these cars? Thanks in advance to all who reply..
Neal
It is the trucks. Amfleet trucks are different than everything else out there and there isn't a whole lot that can be done to improve them. No one makes a replacement truck and the original ones can't duplicate the bearings from the real ones.
Could the Intermountain ball bearing wheel sets be fit into these trucks?
Mark Vinski
I've never examined the Bachmann trucks, but I doubt that Intermountain's ball bearing wheelsets would work. While those, I'm told, help with poor rolling brass passenger trucks, they're substantially different from the wheels and axles on the the Amfleets.
The problem with the Intermountain ball bearing wheelsets is that you'll have to figure out how to mount the inside axle into where the previous axle went. I'm pretty sure it can be done, but YOU are the person who'll have to do it.
I also wonder what the Intermountain wheelset will look like, from the outside, after it's installed. Will the ball bearings "show"? If they do, how bad does it look? When you use your Dremel tool to grind off the pointy part of the axle, does any of the garbage get thrown into the ball bearing, and does it ruin it?
Quite the science experiment, I do believe.
Ed
I note that the Amfleet cars are lighted.
My old Walthers Amfleets had lighting pickups that were spung onto the axles and caused extra drag. It might be worth checking the light pickups on the trucks, to see if these cause the drag.
If lighting isn't important you could remove them or if it is, try a different type of power pickup.
Peter
7j43kI also wonder what the Intermountain wheelset will look like, from the outside, after it's installed. Will the ball bearings "show"?
The bearings are set in the backs of the wheels, giving them a very unprototypical appearance there; without looking I would say that significant (but not structurally very difficult) modification of the truck frames would be needed to accommodate them.
The principal issue in removing the 'point' on the axle end, in my opinion, is heat rather than debris, although both are important. I would be tempted to make up something that would chuck the center of the axle and spin it, and use some sort of narrow-kerf saw rather than a cutoff disk to keep grit down, with something like a cordless vacuum's nozzle and perhaps a magnet right there to pull metallic cuttings away from the bearings. We discussed getting the face of the wheel 'correct' for Amfleet.
I'm going to put up a call here: what are the current 'best practices' for modeling inside bearings -- or converting various crappy approaches to best rolling?
Some of this was discussed in other threads - link to them as part of the discussion.
I personally like the idea of 'necking' the axle with chamfers either side, and making acetal bearing inserts with corresponding lateral thrust faces to go in whatever truck sideframe construction rings the bell. I do NOT think that little clock bearings are the best solution (although I love them 'in their proper places')
If it is a needle type now, how about reaming out the trucks a bit? Really need to see the truck insides to really answer the question.
rrebellIf it is a needle type now, how about reaming out the trucks a bit?
Overmod rrebell If it is a needle type now, how about reaming out the trucks a bit? Kiddo, it's Amfleet. Pioneer III-derived inside-bearing trucks. No needle points. No conical journals. No self-restoring lateral float or small working contact area via different conical radii.
rrebell If it is a needle type now, how about reaming out the trucks a bit?
Kiddo, it's Amfleet. Pioneer III-derived inside-bearing trucks. No needle points. No conical journals. No self-restoring lateral float or small working contact area via different conical radii.
Just found a pic, looks alot like the trailing trucks of a steam engine I once saw as far as how the wheel is kept in place. If I recall right for that we had to install bushings, a lot of work.
rrebellGreek to me.
TL;DR - inside-bearing trucks. The bearings are between the wheels, and since the wheels are pressed on the axles, any sort of roller or ball bearing would have to be installed first (as with roller-bearing drivers).
Reducing the model's axle diameter weakens the axle at those points. If this is done after the wheels are pressed to gauge, this is less trouble than if the axles are machined first in mass production. Even a very little wobble or effective runout would be intolerable.
At least one 'solution' for inside-bearing trucks has been bewailed multiple times here: certain tender trucks from Olympic that are apparently almost poster children for the wrong way to do it. As I recall, there are designs from Bachmann where the axles 'snap' into a plastic lead-truck frame much like the construction of '40s toy automobiles -- with comparatively large 'journal area' if subsequently oiled or greased, leading to smooth but 'draggy' pulling characteristics...
Are the Bachmann trucks identical to the Walthers trucks? I know people have impoved the rolling quality of the Walthers ones by reaming out the "axle clip" and inserting a small segment of brass tubing in there. That, at least, gives a less resistant surface for the axle to roll against.
NittanyLion Are the Bachmann trucks identical to the Walthers trucks? I know people have impoved the rolling quality of the Walthers ones by reaming out the "axle clip" and inserting a small segment of brass tubing in there. That, at least, gives a less resistant surface for the axle to roll against.
I would say first issue is the inside bearings.
Secondary is the drag from the lighting.
Neither will be easy to correct, nor will the best fix be eye-pleasing....
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I've said it before; now I see I'll have to try saying it again:
WHAT ARE BEST PRACTICES FOR THE DESIGN, MODIFICATION, LUBRICATION AND MAINTENANCE OF INSIDE-BEARING TRUCKS?
Surely there is a wide range of experience with two-axle locomotive lead trucks alone that could be 'technology-transferred' to these various poor Amfleet designs? And why hasn't a maker like Kadee developed a replacement inside-bearing frame, perhaps with adjustable wheelbase and pin locations, with optimized bearing running and lateral?
NittanyLion and rrebell both answered this.
NittanyLion said - "reaming out the "axle clip" and inserting a small segment of brass tubing in there"
rrebell said "If I recall right for that we had to install bushings, a lot of work."
So, in short - Enlarge the axle sockets, then install brass bushings to again reduce the size back to what is needed to hold the axle in.
Although it is not a short project to do by the sounds of it....
All that does is replace a large indeterminate bearing area of plastic with a larger indeterminate bearing area of brass. Which must then be glued so it will not move, line-bored accurately to the reference of the truck pivot so the result doesn't run whopperjobbed, finished inside for lowest lubricated running resistance, faced off for lateral compliance, bottoms cut away to get the axles in and then some kind of keeper arrangement provided so they don't fall out again... so many practical questions that a simplistic armchair answer doesn't seem to get.
I have not done this, and while I can certainly figure out what's necessary, I (along with Neal) want to see detail of actual implemented solutions that work. Including, for Amfleet, the best approach to lighting pickups.
I repeat again (strange how that isn't redundant in this thread): what is the detailed best practice for minimizing resistance and maximizing smooth running in model inside-bearing trucks?
Nano-lube, works best metal to metal.
rrebellNano-lube, works best metal to metal.
I'd think anything that would 'wet' brass bushings and stay reasonably in place eould produce some effect of viscous drag -- again, that's not necessarily bad but I'd bet the result is gliding more than free rolling as with the conical point contact...
I dont know if this was mentioned yet, but I was considering just enlarging the Bachmann plastic truck sides, and place inside roller bearing wheels (by Rapido) in, once they're released (hopefully as parts for their new Bombardier cars):
They seem to be fairly freerolling, atleast in the video, and should ve very easy to install.
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
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How much of a "rivet counter" are you?
Easiest fix if you do not count rivets, replace trucks with "standard" passenger trucks from other models. Then you can use the standard needlepoint axles which are more free rolling.
If you need "prototypical accurate" inside bearing trucks, then you will be much more involved, and I personally have not done this. I will therefore defer to those who have.
OvermodWHAT ARE BEST PRACTICES FOR THE DESIGN, MODIFICATION, LUBRICATION AND MAINTENANCE OF INSIDE-BEARING TRUCKS?
More power on the head end. (There's a reason those old Walthers Mainline F40PHs are so heavy.)
Aaron