Tony's Trains wouldn't sell me a decoder

[SpaceMouse]

I just called Tony's to get a a decoder for my Proto 2000 S1 and daughter's Bachman Plus 4-8-4.

He sold me a Digitrax DNI 143 IP for the S1 and a pack of resisters for the light. But he didn't want to sell me anything for the Bachman. He says they are impossible to wire for DCC and that his shop doesn't or won't do them. He said that he wouldn't be doing me any favors by selling me a decoder.

I suppose I could have talked him into selling me one, but he convinced me the job was way over my head. He said that the last one they attempted at the shop, he ended up buying the guy a new locomotive. Guess my daughter is going to be the queen of channel 00 at the club. Too bad.

[DigitalGriffin]

Too bad about the Bachmann.

I would be careful about using the Bachmann on address 0. I read somewhere that some motors couldn't handle the heat generated by the AC current, and that it makes the motor humm. i would hate to have to see another burial for your switcher and your daughters bachmann. *cringe*

[NZRMac]

I've just wired my Bachmann mogul 2-6-0 for DCC using a soundtraxx decoder put the speaker and circuit board in the tender, ran 6 wires thru to the motor, pickups and headlight works great .

I'm having a problem with the wheel pickups but apart from that all is fine.

Using a dc loco on dcc does heat the motor and make a buzz, I've been doing it and the motor is still fine.

Ken.

[tstage]

Chip,

Even though I've never really dealt with them, I would trust TTE's judgement. However, you might try asking Loy's Toys to get a second opinion on the matter. They sell DCC systems and accessories (e.g. Digitraxx) but I'm not sure whether they do installations or not. Worth a second ask...

Tom

[ndbprr]

Why not ask Bachman?

[orsonroy]

Sounds like Tony's got an axe to grind somewhere.

You can literally add DCC to ANYTHING electric, including TVs and blenders, with a little time, knowledge and creativity. First things first: Wiring for DCC has a section on how to add DCC and sound to the Bachmann Plus GS-4:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/sbhgs4.htm

If it's not EXACTLY what you're looking for, it's awfully close. And if you run across any issues with the installation, the rest of the website should answer any questions. Keep the site bookmarked!

[Anonymous]

Well, you could always get a new DCC ready UP 4-8-4:

http://www.internethobbies.com/internethobbies/rivhounpac481.html

This Rivarossi UP 4-8-4 is EXCELLENT. Pulls like a brute, runs like a dream.

[dave9999]

QUOTE: He says they are impossible to wire for DCC

He actually used the word "impossible"? Hmmm....

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave9999

QUOTE: He says they are impossible to wire for DCC

He actually used the word "impossible"? Hmmm....

Yep!

Orsonroy,

I have that bookmarked already. I'll re-read it and decide again if I want to go try.

[dave9999]

Could it have something to do with not being able to isolate the motor... or something like that??
I'm with Ray, I was under the impression that any loco, some more difficult than others, could be
converted to DCC. Strange... Dave

[orsonroy]

You can ALWAYS isolate a motor, even if it means wrapping it in electrical tape and silicone caulk! I think somebody at Tony's just didn't want to mess with a "stone age, DCC-unfriendly, POS" (as the DCC snobs like to call most steam)

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave9999

Could it have something to do with not being able to isolate the motor... or something like that??
I'm with Ray, I was under the impression that any loco, some more difficult than others, could be
converted to DCC. Strange... Dave

Yes, that is the problem according to Ken.

[greendiamond]

I'd pick up one of the Lenz life-time warranty decoders when attempting the Bachmann install. Just in case you fry it, you'll get a free second chance at it.

[mcouvillion]

Chip,

I've done the Bachmann GS-4 Warbaby and it took a little care but it wasn't THAT hard. I can't imagine your 4-8-4 being "impossible" to do. Nothing is impossible if you are determined enough. I don't remember for sure, but I think the motor is one of the three-pole "pancake" motors that has the contacts to the frame halves. It's easy enough to isolate. They must not want to spend the time, or haven't tried, doing it. If you do it yourself, why would they care how long it would take? If you put the decoder and speaker in the tender, there should be plenty of room in the engine (read between the frame halves) for the wires for the track pickup, motor, and lights. Call Tony's again and get someone else, or try a different supplier.

Mark C.

[Anonymous]

Go ahead and get a TCS T1 www.tcsdcc.com The T1 is a basic decoder but it should have all the features you need for your daughter's engine. Plus, even if you screw up, you cant go wrong. they have a 1 year "goof-proof" warranty. Send them the destroyed decoder and they'll send you a new one no questions asked, free of charge.

[grayfox1119]

I have a Bachmann GP40 ( McKinley explorer set) and was told by TTE that it could not be made to use DCC. Upon checking directly with Bachmann, I received the very same answer. Bachmann instead wanted to sell me another GP 40 that is now DCC friendly. Tony does not have an axe to grind, he is straight up with modelers, I have been to his store and his people know their stuff. As you can see, the manufacturer THEMSELVES admitted to the problem. One "might" be able to retrofit, but will the patient survive?? Sometimes guys and gals, the cure is worse than the disease.

***

[Anonymous]

Courtesy of Trainorders.
I'm not DCC or a Bachmann guy but I saved this for future use.

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A clarification here...

I have a Spectrum Heavy Mountain which is a great model. I did, however, have problems when I tried installing a decoder. In this case it was a Digitrax DH163 series. I had erratic running problems and could not resolve it. Finally, I found an app note on the TCS web page concerning this problem.

It seems Bachmann is trying to deal with European RFI/EMI restrictions. These are pretty severe because they still want to use rabbit ear antennas on their TVs and don't like interference from noisy motors, as in your favorite model train. Thus Bachmann has gone to some lengths to suppress this by installing hash filters in the motor leads.

The filters are highly reactive, consisting of capacitors and inductors, or at least a capacitor. This kind of load affects the feedback that the decoder sees. The result is that the decoder can't figure out how to handle it, gets lost and does strange things.

My solution was to remove the filter components altogether. When I did that, the loco ran just fine with no hiccups at all. A second piece of information came in a recent article in Model Railroad News. The writer, John Sipple (also editor) described how he took the board out completely to cure his loco, a different model.

The item on Tony's web page doesn't seem to quite fit but in my years of dealing with customer's technical problems, it often turns out that the complaint doesn't quite describe the actual problem and maybe gets a bit exaggerated out of frustration.

I must say that this was one place Bachmann fell down on support. The only response I could get from them was "send it in for repair." That didn't appeal to me as it left me with the feeling that it would have led to one of those "no problem found" results. Certainly Bachmann must be familiar with this by now and have a fix. The least they could do is let their customers know about it.

The Digitrax data sheet didn't help either. There was a vague reference to the possibility of a capacitor across the motor leads causing problems but that was it. They could have been more specific as well.

The bottom line is if you have a Bachmann loco, don't hesitate to remove those filter components. It might be a pain to identify them but you can leave the board in place. If there are inductors, there will usually be two of them and they will be in series with the motor leads. You will have to replace them with a jumper. The caps can just be removed. If all else fails remove the board and wire in your decoder. Almost certain to work.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 05/10/04 14:52 by .


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[Anonymous]

I recommend Litchfield Station, http://www.litchfieldstation.com/. E-mail Bruce and see what he says. He has many decoders at good prices, including the TCS T1.
Gary

[cacole]

This Bachmann model you have is made the same as their SP Daylight. Tony's is right -- putting a decoder into one of these requires specialized tools and a lot of work because the drive rods and wheels must all be removed so the frame halves can be separated to get at the motor and isolate it from the frame. And then there's the problem of what to do about the smoke generator. When you separate the frame halves, you must break one of the heating element wires, and they are a type that cannot be soldered.

I put a decoder into one of these last year and will never attempt anything like that again. Bachmann Spectrum are easy, but not Bachmann Plus steam engines. Bachmann Plus diesels are also a nightmare.

[Don Gibson]

GENTLEMEN::

Not all BACHMANN's are alike. They are made in differen factories in different countries.
Even current 'Daylight 4-8-4's have revised their chassis.

Perhaps Tony's knows something WE don't.

TRUE, Anything CAN be done, but Perhaps it's 'cost prohibitive'.

[mcouvillion]

Guys,

I did a Bachmann Plus GS-4 Warbaby and it was not that hard. I may not have totally removed the wheels, as I think you can sneak the motor out by just loosening the screws holding the halves together. I did not change the smoke generator - it still works like original, contacting both halves of the frame to get its power direct. As mentioned in an earlier post, I did not do the lights, other than to connect it to the decoder. I'd like to do a firebox light and Mars light, but that will have to wait. It runs fine on DCC. Heck, I did the install in a couple of hours the night before a GATS show! I usually am not under any time constraints, but I wanted it to pull my 1940s era SP heavyweight passenger train. Ran all that weekend.

I just can't understand why it is such a problem. If the motor has the circuit board for the radio interference suppression, it could be taken off. My engine did not have that. If the motor does not run without the circuit board, then maybe a different Bachmann motor could be used in its place. I haven't seen a Bachmann yet that had a real good motor in it. They like the little 3-pole flat pancake motors. I would be very surprised if Bachmann fundamentally changed the design of their engines to be significantly different from earlier designs. I don't believe they are going to spend good money to change a successful design.

Mark C.

[AntonioFP45]

Guys,

I took the liberty of e-mailing this topic to Tonys. I've always heard nothing but positive feedback from this business. Hopefully the rep's intent was not to "blow off" space mouse but rather be helpful.

[Virginian]

If you don't think Bachmann TOTALLY changed their engine design, open up a Spectrum. The pancake motors are ancient history. The heavy 4-8-2 uses a timing belt drive.

[rrinker]

I think the intent was to say Bachmann hasn;t changed much in a given line, ie, the Bachmann Plus locos are built pretty much the same way they always have been. It was also already mentioned than the Spectrum steamers are MUCH easier to convert to DCC than the older style Plus locos.

I will reiterate what has already been said - you can put a decoder in ANYTHING, given enough time and effort. Witness the picture I saw of a guy who build an HO scale SPEEDER complete with decoder. Don't remember is that was here on on one of the Yahoo groups. Simply amazing.

--Randy

[BRVRR]

I installed a Digitrax DH163 in a Bachmann Niagara 4-8-4 without problems. I recently swapped it for a MRC sound decoder. The original installation was a bit tedious but not difficult. I managed to do it without totally removing the side rods and valve gear. I found no circuit boards inside. I did, however, find one inside of a Bachman Thomas The Tank Engine. After checking around, I removed the circuit board from Thomas and let the DZ123 decoder do the work. I have had no problem with either installation.
As far as running the Bachmann engines on address '00', I have a flock of them, everything from a 0-4-0 to 2-8-2s without decoders. The grandson runs them all the time on my DCC BRVRR. Some of them are 4-5 years old. Never had a motor failure. Yes, they buzz and get warm if sitting still, but no failures yet.
Remember, it's your railroad.

[Jetrock]

BRVRR: A Bachmann Spectrum or a Bachmann Plus?

And since SpaceMouse wants to put this decoder in to run it on a club layout, actually it isn't his railroad.