About 30 years ago Rivarossi put out their version of the Cardinal Train. This was a special train the New York Central had painted cardinal red to transport Roman Catholic cardinals from New York to a special council in Chicago. I believe it was held in 1926. The cars were standard generic Rivarossi heavyweights with the cardinal livery as was the Hudson. I bought this set on an impulse. I ended up running it very sparingly and for most of the past 30 years it has been sitting in the original box which is quite faded but the equipment inside is almost new.
I was thinking about upgrading the passenger cars and retrofitting the Hudson with a decoder but I was out on ebay and saw two of these listed, this one with an asking price of $745.
Rare Vintage Rivarossi “The Cardinals Train” | eBay
The asking price on the other is about $200 more. I know enough about ebay to know that asking prices don't mean squat. It is the selling price that gives a truer idea of the worth of an item. If this item sells for anything close to the asking price, I certainly wouldn't want to modify mine in any way. It would be far more valuable to me to sell it than upgrade it. Is there a way to determine what an item actually sells for on ebay if you are not actively bidding on it? I'd like to see what these two sets actually sell for and how long it takes to find a buyer. I'm sure my set would be in at least as good a condition as the two being offered.
UPDATE: I noticed the set with an asking price of $949 has 21 watchers if that means anything. I put the cheaper one on my watchlist. Maybe these watchers are people like me who have one to sell also and just want to get an idea of the selling price. If there are that many sellers, I doubt any of us would sell it for anything close to the asking price.
John-NYBWIs there a way to determine what an item actually sells for on ebay if you are not actively bidding on it?
In eBay's Advanced Search, you can check the boxes for completed listings and sold items. This is very useful to find what things sold for - or if they did not sell. As you said, this is a much more accurate indicator of the marketplace than an asking price.
Ed
Even sold prices you have to look at date sold and even that can be misleading, all it takes is two in a bidding war also even though I have not seen it personally in many moons but people used to have freinds bid up the price.
Right now neither is up for auction. Both are listed as By It Now and one is Or Best Offer.
I would think this item would have limited appeal and probably would be of more value to a collector than someone who would actually put it on a layout. After all, the prototype would have only made one round trip New York/Chicago. I'm guessing the consist was repainted after a single use. On top of that, it is generic Rivarossi passenger equipment, not prototype specific.
Collectibles are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them at any given time. I doubt these two are going to sell an time soon but we'll see.
There's another one for $499: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Con-Cor-New-York-Central-The-Cardinals-Train-HO-Scale-RARE/164645332714?hash=item2655a066ea:g:6YQAAOSw96xgANG1
Looking through sold items, it seems like you can get them for around $300.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=%28rivarossi%2Cahm%2Cconcor%2Ccon%29+cardinals&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1
Good luck!
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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As far as prototypes go..
The combine is actually a Santa Fe Fast Mail 2602-2608 "rider car" (its technically a combine but it was never seen at the front of a train), a car used specifically at the end of mail trains.
The sleepers are all generic 12-1 sleepers, which should be the most accurate thing on this list.
The diner is another Santa Fe prototype.
Lastly the observation is based on a Santa Fe 1513-1514 "Cafe Observation" car. (compare the windows)
That all being said, if youre a collector of Rivarossi models OR you want a cardinal set by any means, the closest youre probably gonna get is this set, unless youre willing to paint and decal a set of your own....possibly source a few brass NYC cars.
I modified my rivarossi cars with weights, interiors, proper 36" wheels, pickups, and constant lighting...adding some wire formed detail while I was at it. They look, feel and operate half decently now.
Trainman440 There's another one for $499: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Con-Cor-New-York-Central-The-Cardinals-Train-HO-Scale-RARE/164645332714?hash=item2655a066ea:g:6YQAAOSw96xgANG1 Looking through sold items, it seems like you can get them for around $300. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=%28rivarossi%2Cahm%2Cconcor%2Ccon%29+cardinals&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1 Good luck! Charles
Looks like the sweet spot at auction would be about $300. That's probably about what I paid for it in 1990s dollars so apparently this set hasn't appreciated in value. This is more in line with what I expected it might sell for. At that price, I'm more inclined to hang onto it and maybe upgrade it. Horn hook truck mounted couplers were the standard back then and the wheels are plastic. I can see how this could become a nice looking, if non-prototypical working train. Since I'm a free lancer, I'm sure I could come up with a semi-plausible story line for it.
I do find it interesting that there have been a number of recent sales so maybe there is more of a market for it than I would have guessed but not to the point where I could actually turn a profit by selling it.
Yea turning a profit on these "collectible" but not "desirable" sets is never really a good idea. What I mean by those is things like franklin mint, these "limited edition" rivarossi sets, which arent exactly super desirable by themselves alone besides the fact that theyre rare.
That, versus a TCY set, which is truly collictible and desireable and very rare.
Yea, upgrading these coaches isnt a hard job and can be made into a good looking set.
I bought the combine diner and obs painted for Santa fe as Rivarossi is the only one who ever made these cars in non brass. I made a quick vid describing what I did to upgrade them here:
Trainman440As far as prototypes go.. The combine is actually a Santa Fe Fast Mail 2602-2608 "rider car" (its technically a combine but it was never seen at the front of a train), a car used specifically at the end of mail trains.
I had always wondered about that car, with such a small passenger section, but it makes sense now that you've explained its useage. I sometimes run mail/express trains, and often use a Rivarossi coach as the rider car.I'm a long-time fan of Rivarossi's passenger equipment, despite the naysayers who complain about incorrect details or window arrangements. I bought most of mine off the "used" table at a now-long-gone hobbyshop, and in most cases, they were under $10.00 apiece. I also replaced the undersize wheels, using 36" wheels from Kadee.
I also modified a number of Rivarossi passenger cars, to varying degrees.Here's my take on the Santa Fe rider car, with more windows for the riders (courtesy of New England Rail Services), while the ones in the baggage compartment were "borrowed " from an Athearn coach or Pullman...
...and the slightly modified underbody...
This one was originally the Rivarossi diner, but I shortened it into a combine, and it's normally used in mixed train service, doubling as a caboose...
This one was a Rivarossi coach, which I made into a fairly accurate model of one of the CNR's "Express Horse Cars"...
I used another Rivarossi coach to make this CNR "Mountain Observation" car for a friend, as the CNR used a number of such cars through the Canadian Rockies...
This Rivarossi combine was converted into diesel-electric doodlebug, with parts from numerous model producers. The front portion of the frame, along with the underslung fuel tank, and powered truck, is from an Athearn Blue box F7, with power supplied by a Mashima can motor. The detail parts are from Details West, Details Associates, Cal Scale, NERS, MDC, and other, along with some scratchbuilt stuff ...
I recently added a couple of trailer cars, using Athearn coaches...
Here's an under-construction view...
I have a bunch of the Rivarossi 12-1 Pullmans, but converted this one into a solarium observation using window castings from New England Rail Services...
...and also gave all of them some better underbody details...
...most of the rest of them were converted into day coaches...
I opted to make my observation car into a private car for railroad officials, but other than closing-off one window and upgrading the underbody, it's pretty-much stock...
I've just recently begun a project to convert some Rivarossi passenger cars into into wooden headend cars, mostly baggage and mail/express cars, along with a bunch of fruit baggage cars. The latter were very common in this area, and were simply baggage cars with various arrangements of ventilation for transporting fresh produce, which didn't require refrigeration. Along with the Rivarossi cars will be some scratchbuilds, a total of 17 or 18 cars, to be split between me and a couple of friends.
Wayne
Very impressive stuff as always Wayne!
To expand on the rider car, from what Ive read, Santa Fe needed a way to put a (non passenger) fast mail express train on as a high priority, first class passenger train. So in order to qualify as one, they always would put this car at the end, since now it would technically have a "passenger" section. Most of the car is baggage, and the crew can sit and relax in the rear. Im not sure if they ever allowed paying customers to ride in the car.
That's why it looks so off putting. There are very few full length combine cars out there, (besides this) and maybe Rivarossi wanted consistency in car lengths with its other car types (diner, sleeper, etc) when choosing which prototype cars to model.
Your kind words are much appreciated, Charles.
To be honest the old Rivarossi steam engines weren't bad but weren't all that great. I'd probably look to sell the set all together, and use the money to buy a better Hudson (like BLI) and passenger cars. As noted, AHM/Rivarossi cars generally run $10-20 at flea markets, and the later redbox ones often came with interiors included. If you're patient, you can find Undec ones if you want to paint them for a specific railroad.
wjstix To be honest the old Rivarossi steam engines weren't bad but weren't all that great. I'd probably look to sell the set all together, and use the money to buy a better Hudson (like BLI) and passenger cars. As noted, AHM/Rivarossi cars generally run $10-20 at flea markets, and the later redbox ones often came with interiors included. If you're patient, you can find Undec ones if you want to paint them for a specific railroad.
One thing I don't need is more Hudsons. I have 4 from BLI and one from MTH. In additional to the Cardinal Train Hudson, I have both the Rivarossi TCL and and ESE streamlined Hudsons although the latter are sitting on the shelf.
If somebody were to offer me $400 today for my Cardinal Train I'd probably sell it to them. If I couldn't get more than $300, then I would probably hang on to it with the idea of upgrading both the cars and the loco which would require a decoder installation. Somewhere between those is the tipping point at which I would sell. I don't need to make a decision on this right away. It's been sitting on a shelf for about 25 years so it won't matter if it sits a few more. I'm going to keep my eye on how they are selling on ebay and decided if I can get enough for it to part with it.
One thing I do know. This train has far more value as a set than if I were to break it up. As you said, the cars go for about $20 at flea markets and who knows if I would sell all of them that way. I doubt the loco by itself would bring in much more than $50. That makes the break up value less than $200.
Interesting
I would never recommend breaking the cars up and selling them separately, or modifying/repainting them either. My point was it would be better to sell the set all together, thereby getting the most you could for them, and use the money to get something you want and can use. You could for example buy AHM/Rivarossi passenger cars undecorated for $10-15 each, and decorate them as you wish. It would be better to do that than repaint the Cardinal cars.
wjstix I would never recommend breaking the cars up and selling them separately, or modifying/repainting them either. My point was it would be better to sell the set all together, thereby getting the most you could for them, and use the money to get something you want and can use. You could for example buy AHM/Rivarossi passenger cars undecorated for $10-15 each, and decorate them as you wish. It would be better to do that than repaint the Cardinal cars.
If I decide to upgrade my Cardinal Train, I doubt I would repaint them. Being a free lancer, I'm sure I could come up with a plausible explanation for the all red train. For example, the NYOW only had a small amount of passenger traffic. Unfortunately for them the same was true of their freight traffic which is why they went belly up. When more prosperous lines were spending money to streamline the locos on their premier trains, the NYOW decided just to give a fancy paint job to one of their locos. Since the NYOW is one of the railroads my freelanced road is based on, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to invent a similar story.