Hi, I have this Proto 2000 Berkshire, but was never satisfied with its paint. The fact that the entire thing is a matte black for some reason just looks wrong to me. Ive been studying the photos of the NKP S-1 class, and have considered to either weather the entire engine to lighten the black and bring out the details, or to paint the smokebox (and possibly firebox) a dark graphite gray color.
What would be the best way to paint the smokebox graphite? Should I just paint over the separately applied details (such as the handrails, and other piping), and then come back and paint those black, or should I remove those details, paint, then reattach?
Also, what smokebox graphite color paint do you recommend?
Photo for reference. Something about the entire thing being matte black just doesnt look right to me. It just lacks the charm the Bachmann Berks have. Am I crazy for wanting this?
Thanks,
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
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Keep in mind that the graphite coating used was essentially 'thermosetting'; it depended on the heat of the smokebox to harden properly. So you wouldn't paint anything but an actual hot surface with it.
Some railroads got around the issue of high-temperature paint blistering by extending the boiler lagging and jacketing over some or all of the smokebox. This could lead to maintenance concerns, for example accessing the front-end throttle mechanism or poppets, without some work and mess.
ATSF for one used 'tarpon gray' paint rather than graphite on some smokeboxes.
It was my impression that graphite would weather 'darker' as it aged, and that you'd see all sorts of weathering effects in it when you knew what to look for. So the 'right' color might be a range depending on how old your engine is meant to be in service.
Thanks, yea Im aware they werent actually paint, but unless we got a smoke unit, our models (thankfully) stay cool.
So you're recommending I just weather it instead of attempting to paint the smokebox a different color?
I brush-painted Scalecoat #1003 Graphite & Oil on this PRR B6b:
PRR_B8b_tone by Edmund, on Flickr
I seem to recall I added a few drops of black to it. Some roads, such as the B&A used more of a silver (aluminum) color and others, as some B&O engines I've seen, were a darker gray, almost black. Of course quite a bit of soot will accumulate after a while.
Good Luck, Ed
Not at all: I'm just giving you a heads-up on how this early 'heat-resistant coating' would work so you can model its appearance.
Since the coating was powder in a vehicle, you can easily use a paint instead on a cool surface; you could probably use graphite dry lubricant mixed with an appropriate clear 'paint'. You might even be able to 'metalize' it with powder over thin adhesive as for other types of 'metal look'.
Note that as with ATSF, if you have your own color scheme and want the smokebox and boiler front a 'racier' color, you can get it that way whether lagged or not -- it's just a little more time in the shop masking and painting. Ed will have pictures of the 'green' scheme on Boston and Albany that featured white smokebox fronts on some engines for a while.
If you are going to brush paint, I would recommend Vallejo Model Color #70-863 Gunmetal Gray. This is water soluable, and if thinned slightly is goes on very smooth.
If you are going to airbrush, Scalecoat 2 #2005 Smokebox Gray is what I use.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I used light gray auto primer, from a rattle can, for the graphite smoke box and the firebox. This is an old AHM Berkshire.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Prototypicaly the NKP Berkshires did not have any Graphite on their smoke box as the smoke box was lagged so they were painted black like the rest of the engine.
MTH incorrectly painted their NKP Berks with graphite smoke boxes, but then again MTH does not contact any experts before releasing their models.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
dti406 Prototypicaly the NKP Berkshires did not have any Graphite on their smoke box as the smoke box was lagged so they were painted black like the rest of the engine. MTH incorrectly painted their NKP Berks with graphite smoke boxes, but then again MTH does not contact any experts before releasing their models. Rick Jesionowski
Interesting, I figured so, but I needed confirmation as so many places (MTH , Bachmann, Steamlocomotive.net, Trainz) all have it where the smokebox is a dark graphite color. Guess I'll just weather the engine a bit to fade the black a bit. Thank you!
Ed- thanks, I'll try that for my other engines. Your B6b looks great (never knew PRR had a tank engine B6)
Kevin- thanks, I think the Scalecoat Smokebox gray looks good.
By the way I prefer Scalecoat Graphite and Oil for smokeboxes and fireboxes that need it.
The late John Pryke, a great New Haven RR modeler who was frequently featured in Model Railroader, told me he used actual graphite mixed with oil on all his scratch built steam engines.
I still have a bottle of Floquil Graphite paint, but I've used it only on a couple of locos belonging to friends.For my own locomotives (and most that I paint for others) I use black paint modified with some white and/or grey, along with some red or orange and use it on both the smokebox and firebox (unless they're lagged). It's applied during the painting process (I use several other versions of mostly black: straight black for the cab and tender sides, a slightly lighter black for the boiler and cistern deck, and a further lightened black for the running gear). Where pipe, conduit, or handrails pass over areas like the firebox and smokebox, I brush paint them to match the black of the boiler.When the paint and lettering has all been applied, I add various clear coats: a fairly high gloss on the cab and tender sides, a less glossy clear finish on the boiler and smokbox front, an only slightly glossy finish to the running gear, and a dead flat clear coat on the tender's deck. The smokebox and firebox get no clear coar at all, but the pipes and railings which pass over them get a brush-applied clearcoat similar to that on the boiler.
Some of my friends want them that way, but most want a little weathering added, mostly on the running gear and trucks, which is easily done with an airbrush with the loco running (I use an old Bowser turntable bridge in my spray booth, with jumper wires from an old power pack).
A few examples...
This one was done for a friend...
and this one was for another friend...
...but she wanted it to represent a loco in its last days of service...
This is an Athearn Mikado, modified for a friend to represent a CNR loco in a photo he had...
This one, bought "used" by the same friend...
...I turned into this, also a pretty-good match to a photo of the real one...
One of my few brass models, also re-detailed to represent a particular prototype...
Another friend was looking for a Pennsy A-5, like this one...
...and it just so happened that another friend had an unbuilt kit of the same loco. I mentioned the interest of the party of the first part to the party of the second part, and I, being the third part, got the kit and built it into this...
...then delivered it to the friend who had made the initial request.
I've probably included enough photos that viewers eyes are starting to glaze-over, so I guess I'm done.
Wayne
Trainman440 Hi, I have this Proto 2000 Berkshire, but was never satisfied with its paint. The fact that the entire thing is a matte black for some reason just looks wrong to me. Ive been studying the photos of the NKP S-1 class, and have considered to either weather the entire engine to lighten the black and bring out the details, or to paint the smokebox (and possibly firebox) a dark graphite gray color. What would be the best way to paint the smokebox graphite? Should I just paint over the separately applied details (such as the handrails, and other piping), and then come back and paint those black, or should I remove those details, paint, then reattach? Also, what smokebox graphite color paint do you recommend? Photo for reference. Something about the entire thing being matte black just doesnt look right to me. It just lacks the charm the Bachmann Berks have. Am I crazy for wanting this? Thanks, Charles
1) You can look at pictures to see what the prototype looked like. You may be disappointed though... I model CN and CP, and many just used a black colored finish that hides the details when reduced to HO scale.
1) I don't remove the details. If you use an airbrush, you can mask what you can, and brush paint details later.
2) I like a graphite color paint myself. Some craft acrylic paint makers offer that color "right out of the bottle". You can use a dark gray color and weather it to a darker color (see point 3).
3) I weather by applying several coats of black washes until I'm happy with it. You can brush on black pastel powder under the stack to simulate coal deposits.
Simon
20200927_135150 on Flickr
Ive been studying tons of photos (online, not of 765) and videos from around the 1950s of the NKP and the smokebox seems to be black, although likely just because the entire engine's dirty. Interestingly, 765 seems to have a lighter (still dark gray) smoke box.
Yea, I think Im going to try out scalecoat graphite and oil, and mix a lot of black into it, just to make it a tad lighter than the rest of the body.
Wayne: amazing models, like always! You said you add a dash of red or orange into the black, which I can see from the pictures gives the engine smokeboxes a very slight brownish black color. What would make a smokebox have that sort of color? Is it just from dirt?
Trainman440Ive been studying tons of photos (online, not of 765) and videos from around the 1950s of the NKP and the smokebox seems to be black, although likely just because the entire engine's dirty.
Note this picture of 767 being moved (from the Fort Wayne group's Web site).
https://fortwaynerailroad.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/NKP-765767-being-moved-across-4th-street.jpg
I do not know if this is merely a 'preservation painting' of the sort a Boy Scout troop might do for civic pride or whether it represents late NKP practice. But I do know that if you wanted a definitive answer about 'right' alternatives, someone at Fort Wayne would find out for you...
Thanks for your kind comment, Charles.
Trainman440...What would make a smokebox have that sort of color?...
I'm not sure what the source of that colour might be, but I always thought that it was the paint (or oil & graphite) reacting to the heat. I've seen so many colour photos of real steam in-service with smokeboxes and fireboxes that colour that I simply use it on most of my paint jobs, unless someone specifically asks to have their's with a simulated oil/graphite paint.I don't, however, recall seeing too many passenger locos with the brownish-coloured smokeboxes...perhaps they got the graphite/oil treatment more frequently, before it turned brown.
Another possibility might be that the locos in the photos to which I referred were not treated with the oil/graphite mixture.
I find I'm not sure what type of oil was used to make the graphite mixture, but I've seen a number of different types (including high-sulfur cutting oil) that turned various shades of red when heated.