Upgrading loco motors

[CPPedler]

Some of my early Athearn loco's are showing signs of motor bearing wear and was thinking of replacing them with something more modern. Is there any motors available that any better suited to DCC than others? Any thoughts would be welcome .

[Anonymous]

I switched several of mine over to Micro-Mark 12vdc motors. I haven't tried them on DCC as of yet, but found that these motors work quite well, and can be installed without too much work. Of course there are those out there who may have other ideas as to which type of motor to use as there is a plethora available for use in Athearn engines.

[rrinker]

Helix Humper has direct replacements for the Athearns, drop right in, couple up to the existing drive shafts, etc. No odd cutting or fittign required. And they run VERY well.

--Randy

[Don Gibson]

THE most satisfactoty replacements were 'flat' Can motors. The MASHIMA imported by A -Line is such a motor.

Quieter, more toque, less current draw, and more realistic speed.

http://www.ppw-aline.com/re-power.htm

I also recommend their book 'REPOWERING ATHEARN'S

[nfmisso]

I am with Don on Mashima motors, and need to add there are sources other than A-line for them.

[CPPedler]

Thankyou Guys, That's fantastic I'll check them out, probably at the Springfield Show in 2 weeks time, I guess someone there will sell them . CPPedler.

[dragenrider]

Are there any Sagami or Mashima can motors with flywheels that can drop in an Athearn GP9 frame without modifcation?

[cacole]

When you compare prices between an Athearn Blue Box locomotive and the Helix Humper remotor kit, it might be more cost effective to just buy a new Athearn locomotive and put your old shell onto its frame if you have a road name that isn't available any more, unless you really need the improved slow speed operation available with the Mashima motor.

[crzink]

Along that train of thought, what can anyone suggest as a replacement motor for a Spectrum Decapod? Mine is less than three years old, and just hasn't got the cajones to pull more than 6 - 8 cars up a 2% grade?

I'n not worried about top speed, I need TORQUE for the grades. My aim is 15 of the short ore cars plus a caboose.

Decapod Driver

[Anonymous]

Adding my hat to the ring...

Which can motors are drop-ins (or close to it) for the LL P2K PAs? I have 3 of them with the killer motors (3.2A stall current!) and I want to DCC them without frying decoders like eggs. I know NWSL makes a dual-shaft motor that might fit, but I need confirmation, and preferably a cheaper supplier. Pointers?

-dave

[cacole]

Stall Current is a measure dreamed up by decoder manufacturers to insure that they could never be blamed for a decoder failure and being expected to replace it. Think about it for a minute -- how likely are you to EVER push down on a locomotive while it's running to the point of the motor stalling? In reality, the wheels will begin to slip before the motor will stall if you are not pushing down on it, even if it has traction tires.

You would probably be safe putting any 1.5 Amp decoder into those P2K PAs without having to worry about burning them up or needing to replace the motors. I have nearly 20 P2K locomotives, and I have never burned up a decoder in one.

[rrinker]

Start up one of those monster power suckers with a decent train behind it. Have an ANALOG ammeter connected - most digital meters are too slow responding. Open the throttle up. No, it's not the same as holding the wheels from turning, but it is above the typical 1-1.5 amp continuous rating of most decoders. Will it damage it the first time, or the 100th time? Probably not. But over time the stress will do in the decoder.
You can exceed the redline on your car's engine and nothing bad will happen, either. Not right away. Keep doing it on a constant basis and see what happens.
Between myself and my father in law we have at least 20 P2K units as well, Some of his are older ones - I tested each and every one, and none are the 3.2 amp monsters.
For the original poster, I believe the newer P2K motors are a direct replacement.

--Randy

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dragenrider

Are there any Sagami or Mashima can motors with flywheels that can drop in an Athearn GP9 frame without modifcation?

YES. See A Line 'Re Power kits'
http://www.ppw-aline.com/re-power.htm

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Stall Current is a measure dreamed up by decoder manufacturers to insure that they could never be blamed for a decoder failure and being expected to replace it.

While that's completely true, the 12VDC run current (no load) was 1.1A even, and the current at wheel slip was 1.9A. The stall current number was only thrown out for effect [:D] Running my A-B-A set will absolutely clobber my Zeyphr with a long line of cars behind them. I've measured suge current well in excess of 3A for them when started from a dead stop with 34 cars behind them on DC, and that was a 'short run' with all 3 engines pulling (the B shell is on a donor A chassis). As it is, I can't run all 3 on DCC, and I'm not really happy about it.

I'm an engineer. "Probably" isn't good enough. Either the decoder meets the spec for the motor or it won't. In this case, the only decoder that I've seen that does is the long discontinued DH83FX, and those are kinda hard to find. Not to mention part of my goal is to reduce their current demands.

Randy-

The electrical engineer in me is apalled that LL would put motors with those ratings in the locos and label them as DCC ready, when they knew full well that decoder power density wouldn't be able to compensate.
The biggest issue I have is that when the power is disconnected (like if I hit the e-stop button) the flywheels make the motor coast for a while, and that feeds a fair amount of voltage (8-10V if it was traveling fast) on the outputs of the decoder's bridge. The flyback pulses during the on-to-off transition has wiped out the decoders of a few friends. I measured them at over 35V once (didn't have the o-scope scale high enough to catch the actual peak..35V was the upper line on the grid). That's plenty to toast 24V FETs, and it was there long enough to ensure any underrated protection diodes let their blue smoke out.

Decoder manufacturers have been very (read totally) unwilling to share the reverse rating of their outputs, or provide enough information so that I could calculate it on my own. The last thing I want to do is spend the money on a bunch (7) of multifunction decoders and burn them out one by one at random times. Yes, I've thought about the TCS no-fault warranty, but I don't want to do that to them, or me. I should never have to replace a decoder that wasn't mis-specified.

Summary: I'd love to hear from someone who's tried remotoring these beasts, either with aftermarket or 'new' LL motors.

-dave

[rrinker]

I totally agree. I have no idea why they would have used such motors. Heck, with current demands that high, they would be a strain on even a halfway decent MRC transistor pack. Efficiency sure doesn't have to equal current draw - look at the Canon motor Stewart uses in some of their locos, or even the Buhler motor in the F's. From 12V DC to stop mine coast a good 10 feet, keeping the LED headlight lit the entire time! Dynamic brakes are a must on those things (aka shorting the track..[:D])
Odd thing LL did, even the tan flat-sides Athearn motors don't draw that much current. Worst comes to worst, Trainworld sells a lot of the loeftovers are very low prices - probably a whole loco for what LL would charge for just a motor. Pick up a cheap one in some road you don't care about and swap shells. And sell off the leftover parts.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Not a bad idea Randy, but that's where I got them in the first place ;-)

I'm waiting for a callback from LL on the cost of replacement "new style" motors. It took about 10 minutes ot convince the guy on the other end of the line that there was a difference, and that it mattered. Maybe there's a magic person I should email instead?

As for them frying an MRC pack, I haven't run into that one, but my dad's super-hardcore DIY transistor throttles from 1971 run pretty darn warm (7A capacity, pure DC...he doubleheaded big brass back then [;)]) and if the clips get wiggled you get sparks! Not good!

I've been looking at the 1.5A decoders for about an hour now, and they'd probably work alright (it does take a lot to load those suckers down once they're running) but the startup surge really worries me, especially with the wimpy 2.5A output on my Zeyphr.

Oops, back to work. The boss is glaring in my direction.

-dave

[rrinker]

Should be OK on the zephyr, unless you actually stall one out. Like I said, none of the ones I have are the current hog types, but I have run 3 of the other types with significant loads all at the same time with my Zephyr. Even drove a two-motored Bowser PRR T-1 with it (no decoder, using 00) and that didn;t trigger an overload condition on the Zephyr.
Although, my next significant MRR purchase will be a Super Empire Builder set so I can get an extra 5 amps of power plus a DT400 throttle to use, I'm getting tired of being chained to the console, and my home-built jump throttle doesn't cut it as all you can do with that is control speed and direction.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Update....I got a call back from a very nice lady at LL, saying that they were still doing the motor swaps for the high current PAs. My replacements will be shipped out to me in the morning, gratis.

Man I love LL. [:D]

Woohoo

-dave

[Don Gibson]

THE manufacturer determines the probable amp requirements for 'normal' useage.
Weighting down the motor, or adding excessivecars, can overheat the engine - that's why slippage has been calculated. It's your engines 'safety valve'. To exceed this, will probably cause problems and void the warranty.

Manufacturers selling to the 'cost concious' customer need to cut corners wherever they can, and 'over-engineering' for extra pulling power suffers. Manufacturer's with more 'robust' designs often find they suffer in sales (Hobbytown - PPW), so who's to blame?

Last I heard, A-Lines' PPW chasis' are beating the rest at the Museum Of Science & Industry in Chicago, followed by KATO, and ATLAS. Surprised? Not really.

For the cost of re-motoring Steam ($100), double heading may be the best considered option.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by crzink

Along that train of thought, what can anyone suggest as a replacement motor for a Spectrum Decapod? Mine is less than three years old, and just hasn't got the cajones to pull more than 6 - 8 cars up a 2% grade?

I'n not worried about top speed, I need TORQUE for the grades. My aim is 15 of the short ore cars plus a caboose.

Decapod Driver

Decapod,

I too have 2% grades (newly installed). My Spectrum Decapods can barely pull 6 cars and a caboose, weighted to NMRA standards, up the grade. Its just physics. You might be able to squeeze a bit more weight in, which in turn might give you one or just possibly two more cars, but the better answer is to double-head. Looks great, two identical Spectrums work flawlessly together. And curiously (I have to double-head all my smaller steam) I have invariably found that double-headed locos pull a bit more than twice what either of them could pull on its own.

[Don Gibson]

I doubt the prootype's Decapod could pull moe than 5 or 6 heavyweight Passenger cars up over a 2% grade without double heading, so why can't you be like the prototpe?

My guess is after you see a couple of quote's for remotoring, you probaly will.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

THE manufacturer determines the probable amp requirements for 'normal' useage.

Don, while I know that's true, LL obviously went overboard with the motors int he early PAs. So much so that they still offer a free replacement. My "low current" GP9 has almost exactly the same drawbar pull when the wheels slip, yet it draws half the current. My remotored 2lb Akane AC-9 outpulls both of them, and at a mere 278mA.

The manufacturers may make the call, but that doesn't mean they're right.

<eagerly awaiting his new motors>

-dave

[dragenrider]

Don, thanks for the info and the link to the A-line motors. [tup]

[CPPedler]

Many thanks to all you guys out there, it's obviously an eMOTIVE subject . I don't model steam ,well not yet, it's all very interesting to get your different points of view. CPPedler

[Anonymous]

If you have high amp motors, go to a O or G gauge decoder. I have a 50's Hobbytown E7 with that big DC91 motor. After several burnouts of so-called 3 amp decoders, my favorite hobbyshop owner got me a Digitrak unit. I can now pull 3 express reefers and 12 passenger cars up a 4% grade from a dead stop and be accelerating all 20 feet (approx.) uphill. Spend the money the first time for the right decoder. Wiser but poorer.

da grouch

[crzink]

Thanks Rails5. I've already weighted it up, probably got an additional 3 oz's stuffed into the domes, smokebox, firebox and along the top of the boiler. On the grades the drivers just plain quit turning! It's not that they slip, they completely stall!

Then that putz with the F7 A-B-B-A lashup comes roaring up the grade on the main pulling 35 - 40 (NMRA weighted) cars, and it makes one feel, well, underpowered. But I get back at him on the single track. HA!

I'll have to do some research and see what the drawbar pull is on one. I've been told that a rare earth magnet motor is what I need, they have lots of torque.

Thanks for the support!

Decapod Driver

Decapod,

I too have 2% grades (newly installed). My Spectrum Decapods can barely pull 6 cars and a caboose, weighted to NMRA standards, up the grade. Its just physics. You might be able to squeeze a bit more weight in, which in turn might give you one or just possibly two more cars, but the better answer is to double-head. Looks great, two identical Spectrums work flawlessly together. And curiously (I have to double-head all my smaller steam) I have invariably found that double-headed locos pull a bit more than twice what either of them could pull on its own.

[Anonymous]

Have any of you had a look at Model Torque's excellent motors for remotoring? They deign units for specific individual characteristics.
Browse their website at www.modeltorque.com.au and check out their high tech products.
They are cheap, too![:)]

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know how or if it is possible to repower an AHM from early 70's with the vertical motor over the rear trucks?