Oval track layout

[Anonymous]

Well I guess this is one of those "stupid" questions if ya wanna call it that. Anyways being the new guy to the hobby, Im really puzzled when it comes to oval track layouts. Have read numerous times that one of the joys of having a model railroad layout is to make it as realistic as possible. But what I dont get is how can a small layout such as those that fit on a 4x8 (like the one I'd like to start with) be realistic when an oval track of some sort is used? It seems that every track plan I see for layouts of this size all have some kind of an oval, sometimes more than one. Some of these track plans I see seem very crowded. What is realistic about that?

I guess what Im getting at is if you were in that toy locomotive on your oval track, you would be going around in circles seeing the same places over and over. One minute your seeing the front of the building and the next your seeing the back of it.

Is there some kind of trickery that you have to play with your mind when model railroading with an oval layout? Do you imagine the whole track as just one long mainline and going around the track numerous times depicts mileage/ distance? The more times you go around without stopping the longer the trip. And to get back to your origional destination(home), you have to go back that number of rounds? Imaging the buildings, etc are not even there until your home?

I guess this is the most confusing part of model railroading that I have encountered so far. The whole oval track and realistic issue is swelling my brain with confusion. lol

Maybe the John Armstrong book that I just ordered would help me clear this issue up.

Anyone understand where Im getting at?

Thanks for your help.

Steve

[gvdobler]

Steve
I ran train sets as a kid and never had a "layout" til after my military service. My first layout was inspired by a display in a hobby shop of an HO steam engine and 4 34' passenger cars by Roundhouse. (An old-time looking train.) I bought the display train and then had nothing to run it on.
I bought the Atlas track plan pamplet in the LHS (local hobby shop) and found a plan than was kind of a figure 8 or two circle with one going over the other. I built it on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood (I think that's case law.)
I had more fun doing the scenery (all new to me.) Yes, the train went around in circles endlessly but it was great.
Most of the big layouts you see in books are clubs or the modeler was in college when he or she started and now they're retired and they still have some work left to do.
Also, most of those big layouts still only have a few scale miles of track.

The point is find something you like start with a 4x8 sheet (remember it's the law) and get to work. The realism and your interests will be developed along the way.

I'm an airline transport rated pilot flying for over 30 years. Every new pilot wants to start a new United airlines, me I still like flying 30 minutes to get breakfast.

I am no expert but I do know how to enjoy watching trains--Good luck you.

Jon - Las Vegas

[challenger3802]

Try incorporating part of the oval in a tunnel, with scenery (e.g. a town scene) on top.

Alternatively have a hole in the middle for the operator to stand in, meaning you have to turn round to follow the train, giving the impression that the layout is longer.

Warning: Don't have the trains going too fast otherwise you'll get dizzy and fall over!!

Ian

[cwclark]

one suggestion I would like to make is to get it off the flat plywood and make it incline a bit...the style is called "cookie cutter"...lay the sheet of plywood on some saw horses, draw out the track layout with a pencil, and cut it out in a 2 1/4" wide section with a jigsaw where the track will eventually lie....now you can add small blocks of wood as risers between the track subroad bed and the benchwork so that the track will rise and fall in elevated contours instead of the "train on a flat sheet of plywood look"....chuck[:D]

[cuyama]

Steve,

While the 4 X 8 "sacred sheet" is very commonly shown as a beginner's layout, it's not very efficient in terms of the actual footprint it occupies. I described a few alternatives to the HO 4X8 on my website.

Bottom line, if you have room for a 4 X 8 and all its aisles, you might have room for something more interesting.

And the issue you raised of the classic oval not seeming very realistic is also true ... although placing a viewblock down the center helps quite a bit.

Regards,

Byron

[Anonymous]

A small mostly finished 4x8 will give you much more satisfaction than a dream layout. I think it's important to build a layout becuse it teaches you how to squeeze the most realism in a space as possible. I would try to put the track near eye level and run short trains slowly it easy to make the visual sacrifice. I also remember some track plans that cut a 4x8 to make more of a dogbone layout that gives some 'straight' running.

good luck
Rich

[BRVRR]

A 4x8 layout properly designed can be a lot of fun. With scenery and view blocks you can create many illusions about the lenght of the mainline run. Remember, when running at scale speeds, a steam powered freight could take 2.5-3 minutes to run around a 'simple oval' of track. Keep the train lengths down and the realism increases again.
Though far from finished, my 4x10' BRVRR will have several view blocks with landscaping, buildings and foliage to increase the illusion of length. Yes, it is against the wall, but because it is on rollers, I can duck under the layout to operate or work on it from both sides. Maximum reach is 24".
I would love to have more room. An around the wall layout with a peninsula or two would be great. But I have to live with reality. What I have works for me. With a little thought you can come up with a layout 4x8 or otherwise that will give you the satisfaction only your own railroad can give.
End of sermon.

[Anonymous]

Suggestion: use a 5x9 instead of 4x8, it will give you much bigger radii for steam locomotives to go around.

Good luck,
Greg

[tatans]

These are some of the best answers to an age old (seemingly standard) "4x8" query. some of the replies have given me a few answers and new ideas to limited space(4x8) Keep those replies coming, I'm learning too!!! ( you may have surmised I'm not offering any solutions-I'm here to stimulate my old geezer brain)N.B. gvdobler: your'e right 4x8 IS the law.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainwreck100

Suggestion: use a 5x9 instead of 4x8, it will give you much bigger radii for steam locomotives to go around.

Good luck,
Greg

A 5x9 would be considerably better, however, 5x9 plywood sheets have not been produced since the late 60s (correct me if I'm wrong).

Just add one foot wide boards to a long egde and short edge of the layout. They can easily be supported with the cheap, but strong metal "L" brackets sold at hardware and home supply stores.

[Anonymous]

Thanks again everyone and as always I appreciate your help and the knowledge that comes with it.[:)] Keep it comin.

You guys really opened up my eyes about the ideas I can do with the typical 4x8. I dont know why I didnt think of that before concerning about going away from the standard 4x8 block sheet of plywood and instead cutting isles and weird shapes out of it. Byron's website was excellent as was Rich's idea of a dogbone shape. The dogbone shape could definatly make for a neat layout. Maybe have a seperate little town at each end. Have hidden turnouts at the ends of it as well so the train can turn around instead of making the loop on the layout itself and in return taking up space.

Im sure Im going way over my head with my future layout. As a newbie, I know I should keep it simple but its so hard to follow that path when your excited about something.

Never knew about this "scale speed" either, mentioned by BRVRR. I figured you guys just turned it up a slow to medium speed and let her loose. No wonder I read about operation sessions taking a few hours.

Steve

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainwreck100

Suggestion: use a 5x9 instead of 4x8, it will give you much bigger radii for steam locomotives to go around.

Good luck,
Greg

A 5x9 would be considerably better, however, 5x9 plywood sheets have not been produced since the late 60s (correct me if I'm wrong).

Just add one foot wide boards to a long egde and short edge of the layout. They can easily be supported with the cheap, but strong metal "L" brackets sold at hardware and home supply stores.

You could also build the train table 5x9 and cut the plywood into quarters and leave the extra foot in the middle. Could fill in with 1x12 board (warning they are really about a half inch narrower) or a particle board shelving pieces which should be an actual foot and less likely to warp (make sure the thickness is the same as your plywood). You could make it a scenic element like a river with bridges, in which case the cuts don't have to be straight.

As far as realism is concerned, Model Railroading is the art of compromise. For the most part, our trains are too short, they run too often through towns that are too small. While there are many tricks/techniques for minimizing this we each have to pick our own way to an acceptable realism. In the 4x8 realm this may mean having an oval with one side a town and the other side hidden. The train appears and traverses the stage you have set doing the things you have scripted for it and then disappears. When it comes back it is another train .[:)][:)]

Enjoy
Paul

[simon1966]

Steve, your point about realistic operations and realism on the layout are extremely valid and ones that have to be faced by any modeler. In HO 1 scale mile is 60 and 1/2 feet!! My 60 foot main line in my round the walls small basement layout does not even represent a full scale mile, so we make all kinds of compromises. The smaller the space the bigger the compromise. One way to get away from the typical "round and round in circles" layout design so common on a 4 x 8 is to sacrifice the ability for continuous running for a point to point switching layout. Iain Rice regularly has designs in MRR mag that are shelf based layouts built with great realism in small spaces without continuous running. Do a search on his name in the MRR section of this web site and you will likely see some of his designs.

[Anonymous]

There is a lot of selective compression in this hobby. 18" radii found in most set supplied HO railroads were created so folks could have a railroad without eating up alot of household realestate. To get a railroader you got to get your train running and manufactures try to make their sets to address the new comers concerns. More advance model railroaders will not have any curve less than 24" radii or even larger numbers and no swithes (turnouts) less than a #6 or larger.
No one so far wants to do a grade representing a climb of 1000 vertical feet (11.5 feet) so they use helixes to another level and tell you its such and such which is 1000 feet higher then the track below.
Now for oval. Ovals do exist in prototypical railroads. I've seen them in several cities and they serve industrial area. Spokane, WA has a couple of them. The suggestion above on how else to dress up an oval are also good.
Check out the Atlas website for other plans that will also fit on a 4x8 sheet. You will most likely be limted to #4 turnouts and 18" radii but there is still plenty to learn as you develop your ideas of what you really want. Things to play with on this small layout would be bench work, flex track, power blocks, switch machines, track bed, ballasting and everything else to dress it up with out being over whelmed because you bit off more than you could chew. My current layout is an oval with switching yard, crossing track for reverse loop, industrial spur and maintenance spur with round table (Atlas plan #10 with modification). It has 15 powered switches. None needed to be powered but I wanted to learn and felt this would be salvagable for the next layout.

[tstage]

This has been a great thread and has challenged me to rethink some things. Byron, ditto with Slim on your web link info [:)] Good stuff!

I, too, am a first time modeler and am penned into a 4 x 8' layout mostly by the constraints of my basement. I have often mulled over what things I'd like to do and can do to my layout to make it more interesting and realistic. But, at the same time, I'm enjoying the "limitations" and constraints of my table because it is giving me an opportunity to learn wiring, scenery, trackwork, modeling, from my mistakes, etc. in a reasonable sized "confinement" - without being overwhelmed with a "plethora of possibilities" and what to do next.

If you click on the link at the bottom of this post, you can view my layout and see that it is a basic, "kidney bean" oval - i.e. a basic oval with a few extra curves built into it for variety. One of the elements that keeps me continually interested (and laying in bed at night musing over - WAY TOO MUCH!) is the meandering siding leading into my oval main. This gives my layout the possibility and potential of one day being turned into a peninsula, as part of an around-the-wall layout. But it also gives the oval a reason for being there.

I find that my "boring" oval (to some) also holds many different and unique observation points to view a line of boxcars or coal hoppers being pulled by my 2-8-2 or ALCO S1 switcher. Even with the train going around and around, I have at least a half dozen different spots to enjoy viewing it travel to, by, and away from my line of vision to destinations beyond. (I don't think that I would be able to do that as much with a point-to-point. That's NOT a slap against those of you who have PTP.) Along with the continuous loop, my small snapshot of railroad life would not be complete without some switching capabilities.

Anyhow, I've rambled long enough and probably have gotten off topic. Again, I do appreciate the ideas that have already been shared on the topic. Just one more thing to "lie in bed at night to muse over"...

Tom

[TurboOne]

[#welcome][#welcome] Steve, glad you joined us. I am a 3 week veteran here, and had the same question in my mind. The best advice I got, is get it built. I put the 4 x 8 on two sawhorses, put down to seperate ovals, not connected, no roadbed, and no scenery, down, and my two kids and I played trains hours later. After rolling an engine off the edge, I have 22 curves because I wanted bigger, smoother running passenger trains, I am going to a 6 x 10. The magic advice is keep the track 6" or more from the edge. If the train falls, it falls over, it doesn't explode on the floor after that 3-4 foot drop, which is what in scale miles, I don't know but it wasn't pretty. Also you have more options like others mentioned, dual levels, bridges, tunnels and more.

I went to http://www.atlasrr.com/ and looked at all their layouts. Then I bought the books that covered the plans I was interested in. You can also download their track planning software for free and spend forever designing the perfect layout. Jon in Vegas said it best, some folks spends years working on their projects, and are still working on them. If that is what you want go for it. But build your 4 x 8 with whatever layout you like, then you will know what your likes are, passenger, freight, switching, scenery, trolley, or whatever. Then you will get new ideas for what you want to do. Get a walthers catalog, I drool over it every night. All I need is 50k and a 100 by 100 layout, and about 10 years for model and scenery building, and I would be happy. Til then, 6 x 10, or maybe a little bigger...[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Again welcome, stop by the coffee shop and have a drink and a donut !

Have a great day Steve,

Tim

[Jetrock]

Slim: People make 4x8 track plans because (a) people got used to the idea of trains running in an oval during the era of trainsets, and (b) because plywood comes in 4x8 sheets. Plus, most starting model railroaders have a "trainset" that came with a loop of track, so they simply nail their trainset track to the plywood.

There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER why anyone HAS to build an oval. The most popular reason for making a loop of some sort is to allow one to simply sit back and let the trains run around and around, and one can just sit back and watch 'em. Which is fine, some people like to do that--personally I don't care for it that much.

There are other down sides to the 4x8: limited maximum radius (22" maximum), ineffiient use of space (remember, you need 2 feet on at least three sides for proper access, so it's not a 4x8 layout, it's an 8x10!), the fact that you're viewing trains from the outside of a curve rather than the inside (trains look better viewed on the inside of a curve), and of course the overwhelming issue that real railroads generally don't travel in loops.

Increasing the size of the 4x8 to a 5x9 doesn't get rid of the problems inherent in the train-set loop mindset--it just makes them easier to work with, if you can afford the extra space.

There are methods to mitigate the problems of 4x8's--a favorite is to provide a view block in the middle of the layout, making it impossible to see both sides of the layout at once. This can be provided by tall mountains or a backdrop running down the middle of the layout, with tunnels or other view blocks to limit the view around the edges of the layout. This technique can be used to model two very distant points on a layout (say, a coal mine on one side and a powerplant on the other) in a relatively small space, which is a plus.

Personally my favorite thing to do with a 4x8 sheet of plywood is have it ripped into 1 or 2 foot wide boards and build a shelf layout around the walls of a room! It's a more efficient use of space (the layout runs around the perimeter of a room rather than dominating its center), I can watch trains from the inside of the curve (and those curves can be quite broad if one wants), have close-up access to any point without having to cut access holes, and my view of the layout is much more limited, increasing the perceived space of the layout (unless one looks right down the track--which ends up looking a lot like looking down a real right-of-way, straight off into the distance.)

With the addition of either a lift-out section in front of the room door (to go around the room entirely) or a pair of return-loop "blobs" (to reverse trains) one can even run trains continuously around the room.

Of course, point-to-point plans aren't for everyone--and kids generally want to run trains around in circles. But, even though it seems like heresy to some, it is always possible to break out of that 4x8 mold. Even on the Atlas website, there are some great plans for point-to-point shelf layouts, perfect for someone who doesn't have the space for that 4x8.