Steam vs Diesel

[Anonymous]

I am new to the hobby of model railroading and have yet to start anything. About the only thing I have done so far is to subscribe to Model Railroader and just recently sent away for John Armstrong's book titled Track Planning For Realistic Operation. Heard it was a good start from looking through the archives so I went ahead and ordered a copy.

I know little about trains let alone this hobby. Everything is so confusing at the moment (endless amount of info and names) and has been sence I've come across the idea of doing this (month or 2 ago).

Anyways I get the occasional free catalog from Walthers and also look at what is for sale in the ads of MR, just to get an idea of whats out there.

I'm just curious, whats easier for a new guy, modeling steam or diesel? What would you advice? I guess if I went with steam it would be the early stuff and of the smaller type like the 2-6-0(whatever that means). As for diesel, I dont object to anything. When it comes to locomotives, cars, buildings, etc, are they pretty even when it comes to selection and availability?

At the moment, my layout would most likly be a 4'x8'. Not sure on scale, stuck between HO and N. Im not even close to purchasing trains, scenery, tracks, buildings, etc. Probably could be 4-6 months if that, before I settle down to start. Learn, learn, and learn some more.

Thank you for your help.

Steve

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
I'm just curious, whats easier for a new guy, modeling steam or diesel? What would you advice? I guess if I went with steam it would be the early stuff and of the smaller type like the 2-6-0(whatever that means).

First welcome to the forum!!

i model HO so all my prices and stuff are in HO.
2-6-0 means that (the steam locomotive) has 2 pilot wheels (i think that's right but if i'm wrong correct me) 6 driving wheels (3 on each side) and 0 trailing wheels.
Well it depends which era you grew up. don't use that as a general rule but i guess that's what people do. i'm growing up and i model BNSF because that's what i see all the time. I have 2 train buddies who are in there late 50s and they both love steam locomotives because that's what they saw when they were young. and most importantly, what do you like. go to a couple layouts (or read about them in the MR(modelrailroader) magazine) and choose what era and place you are going to model.
generally, diesels are cheaper than steamers. go to the GATS(great american train show) in your area or go to other swap meets! if you are going to buy diesels get a couple of those athrean BB (BB=BlueBox) locomotives. they have good detail and run great for their price.
well my mom is booting me off the computer so i'll fini***he replie later but there are some good model railroaders on this forum. well so long

Alexander

[tstage]

Steve,

Welcome on board!

It really depends what era you want to model. Diesel is anything from the late 30's on. Steam is basically anything from the late 50's back. There's about 20 years overlap (transition) when diesel came in and steam went out. A lot of folks like that era, subsequently, there is a plethora of locomtoves, cars, structures, etc. in that time frame.

A few quick answers. Your layout is the size of my layout. (Click the link at the bottom of this for a better look.) The largest radii curve to make a continuous loop that you can squeeze into that size (HO) will be 22". If you go with N gauge, you'd be able to get about twice as much trackage as HO. (Size ratio: HO - 87:1, N - 160:1)

In HO, your rolling stock (freight cars) should, in reality, be in the 50' and less catogory to look and perform their best. (Classic older stock sizes.) Larger than 50' starts to look bad and have a lot of overhang on curves.

The numbers 2-6-0 refer to the wheel configuration on steamers: i.e. 2 front or pilot wheels - 6 drive wheels - 0 trailing wheels. (The picture of the 2-8-2 Mikado below should help you visualize that better.) You should be able to see when you get to the 4-8-8-4 Big Boy, you understand why they came up with that name. [:)]

Hang in there, Steve, and learn what you can. This forum is a great place to pickup info and ask all the - what you presume as "stupid" - questions you want. No question is TOO stupid. Most of the guys are very patient and more than willing to answer any questions you might have. Just ask Spacemouse. He's only been here since 12/27 and he has close to 200 posts (that's the number underneath your name) credited to him already. No matter how long we've been in MRR, we ALL are still learning.

Steve, good to have you aboard!!!

Tom

[Jacktal]

Trying to know as much as possible is a smart way to do,but it can also become so confusing that you may not really know what you really want or what really suits you best in the end.I suggest that you go "simple" all the way in the beginning so that you could learn the "art" of model railroading at your own pace and hone your skills as it goes.

I suggest that you avoid complex layout plans.Big pikes aren't usually a first modeler's attempt at modelling and you'd be better off with a nice working simple layout than a huge undertaking that got you overwhelmed and...discouraged.

Steam or diesel?I have some of both and love them all but if you ask me,I'd say diesels are easier to operate and maintain and also cheaper since good quality steamers are indeed more expensive.Brands?If you can afford them I suggest good quality locos like Kato,Atlas,Proto series from Life-Like,Spectrum line from Bachmann.Avoid base price bargain brands as the saving isn't worthed the poor running and frustration that often come with them.Models?Since you don't plan on a big layout,moderatly sized four axle locos offer quite a wide choice of types (switchers,passengers,freight) with an imposing array of colors,road names,etc.in either HO or N scale.

Scale?My personal choice is N because of my limited available space.You can have a more flexible operation in a tight space with N but I envy the HO guys since they have a broader choice of equipment,but N is catching up pretty fast however.Both scales have comparable quality with pretty much the same prices too.So your personal taste will decide,if you like detailing,HO is better but on the other hand,N isn't as detailed but this doesn't show as much either.

[ndbprr]

Get an early model four wheel diesel switcher and some 40' cars - like 3-5. That will be the most forgiving as you learn. I personally pity all the N gaugers who have yet to need bifocals. They have no idea how difficult that scale will be.

[Anonymous]

How good are your EYES? LOL! I went from "N" to HO do to my eyes changing a few years ago.

For what era YOU want to model, find out what YOU like and go that direction. Some folks are diehard fans of a certain RR and are a wealth of knowledge for that RR. I love to talk to them and learn from them. But for myself, that is not what I want to do.

One GREAT suggestion I got from the folks here is to think about modelling Chicago for my layout. Why Chicago? It was at one time the furthest WEST that the New York Central Ran, and I think the furthest EAST that Santa Fe ran. I have about an equal number of engines and rolling stock for both.

Being retired Military, I have a real interest in the Troop Trains from the 1940's, and I am gathering information on that subject. For me I have an interest in it, it spans both Stean and Early Diesel Loco's and as said before, many things are available.

Just look at it this way. It's a Hobby! You should have FUN doing it and if you LEARN something from it, all the better. YOU can take it as far as you want too. Myself, my layout is a piece of homasoate on some benchwork, nothing else. I just love to run my trains.

Enjoy!

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

Get an early model four wheel diesel switcher and some 40' cars - like 3-5. That will be the most forgiving as you learn.

Steve,

ndbprr gave you some great advice. Might I add that you can get a terrific deal at Trainworld.com for a Proto 2000 ALCO S1 switcher (This is an early switcher from the early '40's.) It's regularly $110. You can get it for $29.99! (Plus S & H) Both a beautiful looking and sweet running locomotive!

I also like and chose HO scale for the ease of detail working. Some small parts are challenging enough in just HO. Without a microscope (and I use them in my work), I can't even imagine what building in N (let along Z!) scale would be like.

Tom

[Anonymous]

If you have an opportunity, take a peak at the HO Walters reference book(catalog)

Over 1,000 pages of goodies and that doesn't include the biggest player, Athearn.
Perhaps as many as 15 + locomotive manufacturers and more in rolling stock.

It can be confusing , overwhelming & expensive so let us know your parameters.
We have all been there so let us share our experience, knowledge & wisdom.
No charge, one of the few that's free.

[Jetrock]

In place of "four wheel diesel switcher" I'd add only that this switcher should be one with TWO four-wheel trucks, not four wheels total--something like a GP7, F7, SW7 or S1. Single-truck diesels have a tendency to stall.

Early steam, as SpaceMouse is discovering, isn't all that popular these days--but an early 20th century light steam engine or switcher (something in an 0-6-0) can be had inexpensively, handles tight curves, and is fairly easy to work into an early 20th Century or transition-era layout.

[Anonymous]

Do a google on Whyte. You'll find a link or two explaining the steam nomenclature and names.
A Diesel switcher can be an excellant place to start as its' short enough to take the tighter curves and is less finicky about several opertional issues. You'll be railroading in short order as you research what you really want. Here's a secret. None of us got it right the first time. Taste develop and change. Some have gone one way only to abandon and go a complety different direction. Others don't really know what they want to do when they grow up so try everything. (Me) And there is everything in between.

[Virginian]

I think you're off to a good start. I would look and read a lot before you start buying and go where your heart leads you. That way you don't end up with $'s spent that don't contribute to the goal you decide on. I am HO because when I started the availability of specific prototypes was far greater in HO. To a large extent that is still true. I have envisioned N scale empires, but as my vision has deteriorated I have no regrets.
If you think you like steam now, you may have a problem down the road. That liking may turn to loving, and then the sky's the limit. Try to hit some shows with layouts. If you can look at all the BLI Class A's, Trix Big Boys, Athearn Challengers, Spectrum J's, etc. and are unmoved and find you like big modern diesels just as well or even better, or find you like a small first or second gen diesel in a branchline setting best, you pretty well have your direction.
You need to decide what you want and go there. Everyone here can tout their views, but you need to decide for you. Practically every viewpoint has merit.
Oh. And 1950's big steam is the best. :-)

[IRONROOSTER]

[#welcome]
Hi Steve;
Picking a scale is tough and your first choice may not work out well. I would try to go to some train shows that have layouts in different scales to get an idea of what they look like.
Second, decide how much you like building cars, buildings, etc. If you like building, the larger scales are usually a good choice. On the other hand if you want a layout with lots of trains, long trains, etc then a smaller scale is better.

One good way to start is to do HO using the cheaper lines such as Athearn, MDC, etc. and Atlas track, Atlas buildings. This will give you experience without spending a lot of money.

I personally started with HO, moved to O and now am in S. This has turned out to be the best size for me.
Enjoy
Paul

[scole100]

Welcome to the hobby! One thing that needs to be addressed in the steam diesel debate is, wich one looks better to you? The great thing about starting a new railroad is that all the options are yours to decide. Pick one you think looks cool. Something that you would be excited about learning more about. At this point the world is truly yours to shape, so make it in an image you find interesting. Best of luck!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the welcome and help. Really appreciated it.

I'll probably go with HO, but than again my mind might change as I think it over in depth and hopefully get to some shows and see everything in person in the coming months. My eyes arent all that great and well my fingers are fat [(-D] so thats probably another reason I should look into HO.

After doing a little research on what a switcher is, when you guys say I should look into a switcher, are you suggesting that I look into a yard switcher or a road switcher (I think those are the correct terms)?

I have yet to choose whether or not I should go with steam or diesel. I guess its one of those things that when I see the models in person and talk about it more, I'll come to a conclusion.

I guess when it comes to steam, seeing that I live in a small town that at one time was served by rail, I envision of a small steam engine in the early 1900s to 1920s or so pulling a small set of passenger cars and serving a few farm related industries like a feed mill and a dairy and lets not forget the depot. Going from one small town to the next. At one time these were real places in the town I live in and thats where I got the idea from. Plus because I will be using small steam engines, in my eyes, its an excuse to run smaller trains, unlike with diesels from what it appears on a small layout, you can't run full trains in HO. Correct me if Im wrong.

Heres an example of a train set I was looking at:
http://www.eastsidetrains.com/On30.html

Get a passenger set and a few freight cars and I think I would be set. I've seen this exact same set in a MR ad for alot cheaper, but I've also seen this set listed as sold out on a few online stores. So by the time I get ready to model, it would probably be completely sold out.

I guess the reason for diesel is simple, its out there. Need to look at something, I can go to the nearest city (Janesville, WI) and look at the trains (WSOR). Plus theres lots of reading available and well I live in an era of diesel. Which will make it easier I think. For steam, once I get more involved in the hobby, it would probably lead to doing lots of research to get the appropriate cars, colors, buildings, etc. Might find it difficult at times. There was an article in I believe the January 05 issue of MR that talked about this very issue.

Either one I choose, Im up for the challenge though, and it sounds like fun, which I guess is the whole reason for being in the hobby. [:)]

Sorry for rambling on.

Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

I think most of us were thinking yard switcher. These would be NW1, SW1200, SW1500 and there are others. Nice size road switchers are GP-xx (GP=General Purpose) or F units. GP-38 and F-7 are probably most produced. This will get you railroading while you figure out what steam you want and what timeframe.
The set you had a link to is O scale (1/48) running as narrow gage on HO track (1/87). This has become popular due to the buildings you can get at various boutique and discount stores usually with a Christmas theme.
The engine shown in that set is a 2-6-0 also known as a Mogul. A couple of the Whyte classification charts found on line will also tell you common name and typical service of what ever wheel arrangment takes your fancy. Two major types of steam are rod engines such as the Mogul, American (4-4-0), Ten-wheeler (4-6-0), Consolidated (2-8-0), Mikado(2-8-2), Praire (2-6-2) and geared engines such as the Shay (offset boiler, 2 or 3 cylinders side mounted), Climax (2 inclined cylinders), and Heisler (V-twin mounted cross-wise). Rod engines liked freindly grades and could attain higher speeds then geared engines. Depending on the rod engine its service would be agriculture (suger cane), industrial (pick your industry), freight or passenger. Some were designed for dual purpose of freight and passenger. Sizes vary from 0-4-0 to really really big. Geared engines were used in logging, mining and some heavy industry. Well funded logging operations would have a mix of geared and rod engines. The geared engines would bring the logs down from the rougher terrain to a rod engine that could cover the distance to log dump faster than the geared engine. Geared engines have been clocked at ear pinning speed of 17MPH. Depending on rod engine, Speeds as high as 100 MPH were recorded.

[dehusman]

One caveat with choosing the 1900-1920 era, there is relatively littel (as compared to teh rest of modeldom) in the way of equipment out there.

If you are starting and want to do steam I would suggest the late 30's through the 40's as your bes bet. There are several very good steam engines out there that would fit the bill quite nicely and run well. Plus there are enough cars to give you some variety . Virtually anything USRA would work. The Bachmann 2-8-0 or 4-6-0 would be perfect. Athearn and Accurail hoppers. Accurail single and double sheathed boxcars. MDC 2 old time boxcars wouldn't be out of the question. Train Miniature/Walthers/Red Caboose PRR X-29 style boxcars. Virtually any boxcar with a 10 ft or less interior hieght. Any of the Life Life P2k Mather cars. Any wood sided reefer. Any caboose other than a wide vision or steel bay window would be correct. Virtually any heavy weight passenger car.

Dave H.

[Jetrock]

Slim: One thing about the link you provided: The train set pictured is an HO scale set, but in fact an On30 set. The engine itself is O scale (1:48, as opposed to HO's 1:87) but it runs on narrow-gauge track (30 inches wide, thus the "30" in On30) that just happens to be the same width as HO standard-gauge track.

Narrow gauge is kind of a "subculture" of model railroading--while narrow gauge railroads are pretty much gone now, they were quite common up until about the Depression era. If you want to go On30, you should be aware that O scale equipment (which is what you'll be using for everything besides the track) is far less common and generally more expensive than HO.

Modeling the 1900's-1920's isn't too hard--there isn't quite as much stuff out there as there is for the modern era or the transition era, but it can be had. A lot of structure kits are made for that era, and the low-cost "Woodland Scenics" building kits are absolutely ideal for an early 20th Century setting, and positively chock full of charm and character.

dehusman's recommendations for locomotives are good ones, although on a dusty old branch line one might still find rattletrap 1860's 4-4-0 locomotives and all-wood Overton passenger cars. A 4-6-0 (known as a "Ten-Wheeler" or "Casey Jones") is a popular choice for early 20th Century steam engines.

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of great tips in this thread, Steve. I'm in a similar spot as you, though I may be a couple of weeks further along. I've found that my interests have developed with research into the hobby, and that most of the high-level issues (scale, era,etc) sort of resolved themselves. What began with a thousand different questions and what-ifs have coalesced into a workable plan. I think of my lessons can be summarized simply- start small but dream big. My 4x8 layout is certainly not the end point, but it is a great place to start