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Question about Scale Figures, Up Date

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Question about Scale Figures, Up Date
Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, May 2, 2020 10:50 AM

I have a question for the Forum.  I’m currently working on HO scale vehicle lighting.  In particular a M38 Military Jeep.
 
My question is why when the jeep is very very close to 1:87 scale don’t 1:87 figures fit in the jeep?  The real M38 is 133” long and my HO scale M38 is 1.6” = 139”, 133” = 1.52”.  I’m not a rivet counter but .0689” is close enough for me.
 
It’s seems to be the same no mater what I’m putting people into, passenger cars or any other scale goodie.
 
Just wondering what or how others handle this problem.
 
It just doesn’t look right for a driver of a M38 Jeep to have chopped off feet to fit.  I’m 6’ 2” and I had a M38 years ago and I don’t remember having a problem sitting in my jeep.
 
Just wondering.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by ricktrains4824 on Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:01 AM

The problem is that the seat "cushions" do not really cushion, as they are also styrene, metal, or whatever other material, that is anything by soft.

And, scale figures flesh is also anything but soft. 

I have never been able to figure out any other way except a bit of "corrective surgery" to correct this issue.

P.S. - Pun above WAS intended...... Big Smile

Ricky W.

HO scale Proto-freelancer.

My Railroad rules:

1: It's my railroad, my rules.

2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.

3: Any objections, consult above rules.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:25 AM

Hard cushions would make the legs shorter by making the distance to the floor longer, more leg room.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by Water Level Route on Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:39 AM

If all you've got to do is cut feet off, your way ahead of the poor person I put in a Woodland Scenics convertible.  They are cut off at the waist, and had to trim part of the back away to wedge them in between the seat and the wheel.

Mike

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Posted by Southgate on Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:31 PM

Putting figures in vehicles is hard, since as mentioned there is no give in either when they're styrene.

Below is a figure I put in a 1/25 crane cab. The figure and the controls were built at the same time, working around each other.  The arms and control levers were positioned at the same time, and the pedals and his legs and feet too. There is no cushion in the seat or backrest, theyre carved out to fit the guy. And he is removable by making the seat slide back far enough to pull his feet out.  That would be a lot to ask in HO, (was a lot in 1/25) but maybe some of the ideas could be applied.

Note the pedals are not yet in place here:

 

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Posted by mlehman on Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:42 PM

Think about it this way. The exterior of vehicles is what is to scale. The interior is a different matter. Almost all are smaller than they should be because the materials the model is made of are all relatively thicker than on the prototype.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, May 2, 2020 1:43 PM

Part of the problem is the inflexibility of the LPBs...

...when I decided that my steam locomotives needed crews in the cabs, it was a virtual bloodbath...

Wayne

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, May 2, 2020 2:10 PM

When I putting figures in things where the chopping doesn’t show it doesn’t bother me.  When the figures are easily seen it’s a different matter.
 
The M38 figures will be obvious.  At this point I don’t have much to work with.  I spent several hours with the lighting and now I’m struggling with a driver.
 
1:100 figures look terrible, obviously wrong.
 
At this point I’m going to try and do some massive surgery on a couple of my castings, selective chopping while keeping the feet and most of the body.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, May 2, 2020 2:40 PM

RR_Mel
At this point I’m going to try and do some massive surgery on a couple of my castings, selective chopping while keeping the feet and most of the body.

Filing some material from both the back and bum will not likely be readily seen, as people usually sink somewhat into the seat.
You may be able to also take a small amount out of both the upper and lower portions of the legs, then cement them back together at the knees.

Shorten the feet, too, if needs be, and you could also cut them off the legs at an angle, removing any excess, then cement them back on at an angle suiting the foot-pedals.
While it's not likely a feature of that particular vehicle, another option might be to change the angle of the steering column, in lieu of shortening the driver's arms.

I was saving the amputated limbs for creating a gondola-load of slaughterhouse "offal", but I'd need to operate on way more citizens to load even just one car.

Wayne

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, May 2, 2020 3:24 PM

doctorwayne
Part of the problem is the inflexibility of the LPBs...

LPBs?  What are they?  Little People Buses?

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, May 2, 2020 3:25 PM

I have over 50 molds of figures with arms legs and heads in different positions.  I don’t have one that will fit the M38 so I plan on making a driver and passenger to fit. 
 
The M38 is unique in that both driver and passenger are in full view from all angles.  I’ll shorten some legs first then have a go at it.  Some time ago I spent a couple of days making arms in various positions then made a mold with a couple dozen arms on a sprue.  I need to do the same with legs, both male and female.
 
I originally was planning to make the driver male and the passenger female with a dog in the back.
 
This M38 has been a hair puller from the get go, if it could go wrong it did go wrong.  A couple of days then set it aside for a couple of weeks, been working on it for a long time.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:09 PM

maxman

 LPBs?  What are they?  Little People Buses?

 
Well, I was told that it's the short-form for Little Plastic Beings, but I've also heard a different version of the word starting with the "B".  Smile, Wink & Grin 
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Mel is using the second version, given the circumstances.
 
Wayne
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Posted by DAVID FORTNEY on Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:27 PM

It seems it is this way in every scale. A buddy of mine in O scale had to trim every passenger for his daylight train he has been putting together. 

it's just not you Mel.

Dave

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Posted by RR_Mel on Sunday, May 3, 2020 7:09 AM

doctorwayne

 

 
maxman

 LPBs?  What are they?  Little People Buses?

 

 

 
Well, I was told that it's the short-form for Little Plastic Beings, but I've also heard a different version of the word starting with the "B".  Smile, Wink & Grin 
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Mel is using the second version, given the circumstances.
 
Wayne
 

Wayne
 
Yea, I was planning on using this one in the passenger seat but I’d rather cut a hole in the floorboards than cut off her feet.
 
 
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, May 3, 2020 10:40 AM

RR_Mel
...this one....

I do admire your artistry, Mel.  Bow

That's a much nicer use of a word beginning with a "B" (or a couple of "Bs"), and as Daffy Duck once said, "So round, so firm, so fully-packed!"

Apparently, Merle Travis had similar thoughts, too.

Wayne

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Posted by G Paine on Sunday, May 3, 2020 10:45 AM

Depending on ow close a fit, sanding or filing the back and underside of a figure may help it to fit in a seat.

George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch 

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Posted by dknelson on Sunday, May 3, 2020 11:19 AM

Most "scale" figures look like they come from Milwaukee.   Cheese eaters.

 

The problem, if it is a problem, can be readily illustrated if you have good knees.  Slowly start to sit in a chair.  The moment your [word that starts with B] touches the chair, stop - if you can.  That is how a plastic figure sits.  Now continue and notice how much further down you go.  Things give, things spread, things compress.

Even the old "Flexible Freddy" figure wasn't flexible that way.  

Word has it that Rapido is doing 3D scans and is looking into the issue.  Any volunteers?

{I do believe Allan Pollock's Fun & Games line of figures had some sitting figures which had been, um, adjusted to meet the reality of what sitting does to the puffy parts of our backsides.}

P.S. years ago I lived in a hi rise and one neighbor was an undertaker.  I once asked him how I'd be crammed into a casket when the time came, as at that time I was6'8".  He unhesitatingly answered, "we'd cut your feet off.  We do it often."  So there's your prototype ...

Dave Nelson

 

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Posted by maxman on Sunday, May 3, 2020 12:08 PM

RR_Mel
At this point I’m going to try and do some massive surgery on a couple of my castings,

I'd like to see how you make the molds and do the casting.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Sunday, May 3, 2020 12:47 PM

Most of the female figures I use are castings of 3D ShapeWays figures.  The detail on the ShapeWays 1:87 figures is outstanding!  My second generation castings are very good.
 
Many of my castings are third generation, second generation chopped up and reconfigured, molded then cast.
 
 
 
 I also make furniture castings.
 
 
Some of my molds are 20+ yrs old and still usable.  I have several boxes of molds that I made over the years.
 
 
I have somewhere in the vicinity of 1000 figures on my layout, all but a couple of handfuls are my castings.  Passenger trains take a lot of little people, 30 to 50 per car, 22 cars.
 
When I get going I’ll finish up 80 or so at a time.
 
 
 
I use Molding kits from the hobby stores, Michael’s, Hobby Lobby and off eBay.  For the last couple of years I’ve been Model I-Pro resin off eBay for price.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by bluesbreaker on Sunday, May 3, 2020 4:00 PM

As a figure sculptor of about 50 years experience (Junes Small World ,Pheonix Model Developments ,David Piper,Dart castings ,all mainly in OO and O scale ,I can tell you fitting even a master figure into auto ,plane ,race car ,train is very difficult as often the model is only to scale on the outside measurment .The actual thickness of a train body or autobody as paper thin in small scale amd impossible to cast  sa,e for the floor and seats . Compromises have to come into play  to get it to fit .I was once given the large scale plans of a locomotive , even a card mock up of the cab but when I went to fit the figure  to the seat with its arm resting on the window sill looking out nothing fitted anywhere .The guy blamed me so I sent him some plasticene and told him to make me a  quick mock up .Silence followed followed by a check for wasting my time .The drawing must have been wrong and the seat in the wrong place for no human normal or super distorted was ever going to sit on the seat ,look out the window , and have his arms on the side .You can do it if you work on everything at the same time so that seats are compromised and poses allow for thickness.to be honest the best way is  to the cast seat and person together but even then it will probably end up with short legs  as the floor is too thick .

hope it helps

Martin

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Posted by RR_Mel on Sunday, May 3, 2020 5:39 PM

Martin
 
I think you have hit the nail on the head!!  I measured the floor on my M38 HO scale Jeep and it measures .1405” thick = 12¼”.  That’s about how much I would have to cut off the legs of the driver.  As I remember the floor on my M38 I had back in the 70s was paper thin.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, May 3, 2020 10:00 PM

RR_Mel
I think you have hit the nail on the head!!  I measured the floor on my M38 HO scale Jeep and it measures .1405” thick = 12¼”.  That’s about how much I would have to cut off the legs of the driver.  As I remember the floor on my M38 I had back in the 70s was paper thin.

Mel,

That is a very innovative solution! It could be applied in all sorts of situations.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, May 4, 2020 12:13 PM

Martin is correct, it’s the thickness of the floor that dings us.  In all of the passenger cars that I scratch built the interiors I didn’t have to do any chopping.  I used my own scratch built furniture or Mel castings which are to scale and all the passengers fit great.  The interiors that came in some of the passenger cars are way off, most of the floors are .0625” thick, some as thick as .125”.  Even the thinner floors the distance between the chair/seats is off by .125” or a scale foot.
 
Dremel to the rescue, I cut out the floor on my M38 Jeep to correct scale and now any 1:87 scale sitting figure fits fine and looks good too. 
 
I’ll post pictures later (baring my Arthritis flare up) after I repair the Mel damage from removing the floor in the cast pot metal jeep.  I had painted it several days ago using True-Color Paint and to my surprise none of the paint got dinged in the Dremel process, I have to re-glue the windshield and steering wheel then install the driver and passenger.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Monday, May 4, 2020 9:46 PM

I don't do a lot of seated figures, but those that I do confirm the flooring hypothesis.  When I do a restaurant or bar interior with customers seated at tables, no problem.  But, when I do either vehicles or passenger cars, people need surgery to fit in their seats.

Yeah.  I feel bad about chopping off feet or even legs.  I have to remind myself that they are just plastic models.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, May 6, 2020 5:10 PM

I finished my M38 Jeep.  I cut out the floorboards and that made all the difference I needed.  I didn’t need to chop off any part of either figure.
 
 
 
 
From this point forward I plan on modifying the floor instead of chopping off feet.
 
The M38 turned out looking pretty good considering I found in the grass in a Bakersfield City Park having been stepped on a lot.  It’s been setting in my to-do box for years and only decided to take it on as an experiment for LED lighting.  I can’t find a source for the 1mm 1½ volt micro bulbs that I have been using for headlights for years.
 
 
 
I installed a pair of 1206 Warm White LEDs under the hood on the firewall for the headlights and coupled them to the headlights with 1mm fiber optic cable.
 
The tail light is a Red 1206 LED coupled to a .5mm optic cable.
 
Because I can no longer find the 1mm bulbs I’m stuck with LEDs.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, May 6, 2020 6:42 PM

RR_Mel
I can’t find a source for the 1mm 1½ volt micro bulbs that I have been using for headlights for years.

Hi Mel,

The jeep looks good! No more chopping off feet for me either!

I have 12 - 1.5v/15ma. bulbs. They are 1.2 mm dia. I also have two packages of 14v/30ma. 2.4 mm bulbs. I doubt that I will ever use them. You are welcome to them if you are interested. Send me a PM. I'll even pay postage!

Thanks for the idea about cutting out the floors! You can only have so many shoe stores on your layout!Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaughLaugh

Edit:

Hobbylinc says they have the bulbs in stock:

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mtr/mtr18c0310.htm

Amazon says they have 9 in stock:

https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Miniature-Lamps-1-2mm-Diameter/dp/B0755KPRZW

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, May 6, 2020 6:57 PM

Actually the Jeep looks pretty good.  I took over 15 pictures trying to get a good shot of the floorboards and the pictures I posted were the best of the bunch.
 
That poor little jeep looked like it had been stomped on for weeks when I happened to see it.  I had a CJ5 early on and my buddy had a M38, when I found the squished Jeep I knew I had to fix it up for my layout.
 
 
Mel
 
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 

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