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Advice For Scratch Building a What-If Locomotive. Brass Or Plastic?

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Advice For Scratch Building a What-If Locomotive. Brass Or Plastic?
Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 8:35 AM

Long ago, I saw a youtube digital product demo that was an add on for the "Trainz," Train simulator came, which was a what if locomotive had the Pennsylvania Railroad during WW2, instead of chosing the C&O Texas 2-10-4 T1 for its new locomotive basis, chose the N&W Articulated 2-6-6-4 A class they also tested.

This add one, is called the PRR FG-1 2-6-6-4 type locomotive, created by K&L Trains. I even called the creater and asked for the soundfiles I would need, and he said it would be no trouble sending them to me once I was ready. He even said he would be honered to see his creation come to physical fourm once I get to it and help me with said files.

This inspired me for a future project to create once my scale modelling skills are up to par, and I am confidant and know I can take this project on. However, work with a entirly brass locomotive, a plastic one or both? To model the FG-1 on a HO N&W 2-6-6-4 Class A, I would need to add and make the following moficications.

1. Remove N&W pilot cowcatcher, add a PRR style one with folded coupler.

2. The Belmont firebox. 3D print and add one on?

3. Bell is added to the front. The headlight, is raised to the top of the smokebox.

4. PRR keystone logo on the front.

5. A PRR style cab with rounded window. Would need to remove the current N&W cab.

6. A PRR welded coast to coast tender with doghouse.

7. A middle steamdome with a pennsy three chime whistle

My idea of an HO locomotive for the project would be the Paragon 3 Broadway Limited N&W Class A 2-6-6-4, the most recent release of the type by a few years. It would require alot of cutting, add ons etc. But what else would you experiances modellers recommend I should plan for & know beforehand?

Here is a link to the video to give you an idea of what it looks like.

 

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Posted by mlehman on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 9:07 AM

If you need to ask brass or plastic, it suggests you don't have any experience with brass. Brass has a much longer learn3ing curve than plastic. Hacking a brass model is going to be anxiety-inducing, at best. So I'd suggest you lean towards plastic, which can be more forgiving than brass.

Which doesn't mean that will work with the model cited, just that it's more likely to be within your skill set or easily picked up if needed.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 10:05 AM

Hi Mike,

Now that you say that, I have never worked with brass. I thought I might add the word brass, because when reading the MRR Book on detailing steam locomotives, which was released in 2019, an authur said he liked best to work best with brass. I suppose this advice didnt apply to me, a beginner not ready to dive into this skill.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 10:32 AM

I've watched them repair brass on the videos at brasstrains.com and they use a resistance soldering unit.  I believe they are relatively expensive, but if it's worth it to the OP, that's his choice.

Could the same thing be done with a standard soldering station?  I don't know but I would think if it could, that is what they would use.

Henry

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:02 AM

I think it would be 'worth it' to the OP to learn soldering -- but not 'just' for this project.  

In the olden days, it was easier to make or source many of the 'detail parts' via jewelers' techniques like lost-wax, and to fabricate these using "low-temperature brazing" as contemporary adhesives weren't as neat and positive.

This started to change in modeling right around the time Clouser published his initial epoxy-and-RTV techniques, and adhesives like CA began to be marketed.  Today I think it's unnecessary to scratchbuild in brass vs. plastic to get higher-quality results, particularly for a one-off project.

I'd start with a 'used' model for the conversion, which in HO would probably be a Broadway Limited engine.

First: of course, you wouldn't put the headlight for the 'beauty treatment' on the smokebox, particularly on PRR, where it would be shining off into the weeds most of the time on an articulated engine of this proven flexibility.  The generator would go on a bracket above the smokebox door (following PRR 'standard practice', perhaps) with a flexible lead to a postwar-size headlight where the N&W engine would have its headlight mounting.(For fun you could arrange this to be steerable, like some of the Canadian engines, but it would be electrically rather than cable adjusted, probably with multiple conductors along with the headlight power, so little additional 'outward' detail other than the pivot mount and drive.  (Yes, keystone on the smokebox door, although I'd be tempted to put something out on the front of the forward engine somewhere...)

I think I'd use the same pilot as the J-class engines..  Keep in mind that there are going to be some polar-moment-of-inertia issues on a Mallet chassis with a large and heavy cast drop pilot and the frame mods to support it, and you should at least think carefully about this while 'imagineering'.  Likewise the detail cab design.

Expect the largest class of sixteen-wheel tender AND an adaptation of a V1-turbine-style 'water bottle' to run the engine as needed.  The Q2 was already a water hog; something making best use of still more TE would only be worse...

In my opinion a 'practical' FG1 might use an adapted Q2 boiler in place of the N&W one, just as ATSF considered using ex-N&W Y boilers on some 4-8-4 chassis as an upgrade.  I believe there is enough clearance to retain the 70" drivers.  I think you're presuming no WPB influence in forced-sourcing the A "in wartime" (which kept radial boilers on the adapted C&O 2-10-4 design of the J1s and J1as) and I think it's unlikely that PRR would 'keep' the A boiler (which by then was a somewhat dated construction) and just tack a Belpaire (note sp.) firebox onto it.  An interesting possibility would be to use a double-Belpaire chamber (which would have the 'hips' of a typical PRR Belpaire-through-the-chamber boiler, but with a matching set underneath ahead of the firebox throat) as projected for the Lima 2-8-6 and some other plans in the late Forties -- that would give you something to write home about!

What to do with the steam dome placement is an interesting issue.  It would likely go in much the same relation to the two engines that the dome on a duplex does, the idea being to equalize the two admission circuits, but the issue of having a common front-end throttle for the two engines then arises, and that would be at the outer end of the superheater header (where, for example, the PRR T1 is somewhat handicapped by not having convenient room for two).  You should be mindful of keeping the arrangements around the steam dome and dry pipe good for 'treated' water on PRR grades (I suspect N&W to be 'comparable' in this respect) as priming and carryover with a single throttle with often-demonstrated PRR hamfistedness on front-end-throttle-equipped engines will Be A Problem.

It would be highly interesting to see if PRR could make use of the work N&W did to improve the high-speed augment of the A by using Timken rodwork (something I think was a response to C&O's Chessie turbines in the 'race to Cincinnati' competition that didn't develop as anticipated in the late Forties).  PRR at that point would have had exhaustive experience with Timken lightweight rods and their particular 'care and feeding' and there are interesting things a 2-6-6-4 so equipped might be capable of doing that a J1a could not... to get this you would use one of the models of the last few that had these rods, or adapt pieces from one of the commercial J models.

 

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Posted by dknelson on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:07 AM

Back in the 1960s into the 70s, just about every issue of Railroad Model Craftsman had an article by Bill Schopp about modifying brass - often very heavy and elaborate modifications of exactly the sort you talk about, to get a locomotive that was not available or had never been available.  I think he did this for himself but also commercially. 

In the event you decide to give brass a try, you would certainly want to acquire and bone up on those RMC issues and articles.  He'd swap cabs, pilots, move domes around, put this boiler on that different chassis, new running boards, everything.  And if he needed to he was not above using a die cast part such as the separately available cabs that Model Die Casting sold for their Santa Fe 2-6-2 and 4-4-2 die cast models.  Sometimes he'd also have to use a die cast tender.

But - you knew there had to be a "but" -- some things have to be understood.  

First is that Schopp had the skills and the tools to scratchbuild a brass locomotive.  His soldering was perfect.  And he understood the sequence that has to be employed, using solders of different melting points, so that you are not constantly undoing the work you just did by soldering on another part.  The workers in Japan and Korea who do this are highly skilled artisans, and so was Schopp.

Second, among those tools was a special form of electric tweezers/soldering tweezers.  In fact he imported and sold those tweezers for years, and they were not cheap.  He pretty much said he wouldn't attempt some of his projects without them.

Third, he had been at this for years and would talk about the boxes and boxes he had of brass locomotive parts - in some cases 15 or 20 years old, going back to the very early days of brass imports.  There was a fair amount of "basket case" brass sold at train shows back then.  I suspect he also had relationships with the major importers to buy their factory rejects and damaged/returned items.  

Fourth, while brass certainly did not seem cheap to us at the time, this was when a brass locomotive was usually a $50 item unless it was a huge articulated ($100 plus) or small switcher ($30 to $40).  Tenders were often sold separately for $20 or so list price.  Importers such as Pacific Fast Mail often sold brass parts including lost wax castings and the drivers and valve gear and even frames separately.  So there was both availability and affordability for the modeler.  Said another way, the modeler was not competing with the collector and the prices and availability reflected that.

Also - raw brass sheets and shapes at the hobby shop were reasonably priced then, too.  So even practicing was easier and cheaper.  

 

Fifth, the paints that worked best with brass were solvent based paints not easy to find now.  There were, shall we say, lots more airbrushes than there were vented spray booths.  

And lastly, while the articles were wonderful, I cannot recall a single instance where someone wrote in to RMC showing off a locomotive that they modified following a Bill Schopp article.  In reality it might be that those articles involved RMC paying Bill Schopp to "advertise" his custom building business, just as his "Layout Doctor" articles likely advertised his track planning business.  

Learning to solder and work with brass is a skill that perhaps many of us would benefit from.  I only got so far as to build an Arvid Anderson kit for a working switchstand and it was evident my little soldering iron was not the tool for the job.  That switchstand is NOT on my layout.  My soldering now is wiring related.  

Dave Nelson

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Posted by snjroy on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:27 AM

RDG Casey, a member of this forum, does really nice work with styrene...

Soldering is a real barrier for me. But epoxy and Gorilla glue do wonders if you want to modify a brass engine. 

Simon

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:39 AM

dknelson
Second, among those tools was a special form of electric tweezers/soldering tweezers.  In fact he imported and sold those tweezers for years, and they were not cheap.  He pretty much said he wouldn't attempt some of his projects without them.

This is the 'resistance soldering' previously mentioned.  A good introduction is on the Assembly Technology/American Beauty site:

https://americanbeautytools.com/faq/resistance%20soldering

Technically one of the small spot-welding machines (as seen in the YouTube video for manufacturing small Nixie tubes) can weld rather than braze brass, if it has tungsten (or comparable high-resistance) electrodes.  That can be useful for making up complex assemblies before strengthening with solder of the various melting points...

If the OP is interested, I'd have him find and read the flux discussion thread we had on one of these forums a few months ago.  Proper flux (and its removal) is of comparable importance to good heat management.

For the sake of completeness (as I doubt the OP would have the money even in the used market for the equipment) there is laser soldering for fine work, which eliminates some of the considerations governing effective resistance soldering.  There is a useful 'white paper' on this (Fundamentals of Soldering vol. 2) that can be downloaded if you have e-mail you don't mind offering up for 'marketing' purposes, here.

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Posted by Howard Zane on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 1:21 PM

I think this is a great project as the hobby is about limitless imagination....at least for me and obviously others. Recently I began my "What could have been" series of completely scratch-built freight and passenger cars using decals from quite obsure roads and offered by K4 Decals. All cars are my own designs, but look very accurate..just not following a prototype. Remember one of John Allen's quotes.." no matter how strange your model may be, most likely there was a prototype" I've weathered all cars realistically, all have upgrade trucks with steel wheels, KD's and complete underbody detailing in addition to brake hoses and cut levers. My plan is to introduce these at the next Timonium show (when ever that is) with over 300 offerings.

I do have several N&W class A's which since reading this thread, which I will soon begin  to convert to the FG-1 series, and possibly others. Thanks for the wonderful video and idea.

Howard Zane
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Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 1:47 PM
I do appreciate your impute. Oh boy that's a lot to take in. But too but simply, I am following the design the K&L Trains did.
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Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Wednesday, April 29, 2020 2:12 PM

Hello Howard Zane,

I'm honored you would reply on my post, and I am pleased you enjoyed it. I however am worried I wont be able to make it a reality soon, as I need to find a Paragon 3 BLI Class A, and I am inexperianced in the relm of doing this kind of project. Mind if we chat to talk about it further?

 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, June 5, 2020 11:14 AM

snjroy
Soldering is a real barrier for me. But epoxy and Gorilla glue do wonders if you want to modify a brass engine.

Modern adhesives have made it much easier to add/modify/repair details on brass locomotives. I never solder on my models. I have found Loctite Gel Control super glue to be just as strong after it fully cures for a couple of days.

Also, adding a backing support (out of sight) for details made out of epoxy putty is a big durability booster as well.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Friday, June 5, 2020 11:18 AM

How about actually building one of your mental creations instead of generating idea after idea, which most likely will never be realized?

When I was 10 years old, I made big plans for a layout that had no chance to ever be built. I assume your are not 10 years of age.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, June 5, 2020 9:52 PM

Tinplate Toddler
How about actually building one of your mental creations instead of generating idea after idea, which most likely will never be realized?

I think sometimes talking about an idea, even if it will never be realized, can be helpful.

I am glad no one posted a response like that to one of my questions on the DCC forums. DCC is a subject I know almost nothing about, but I might have an idea or two I want to discuss.

Kicking around ideas and thoughts might not get this project into production, but it can get ideas going that can lead to some real modelling.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Friday, June 5, 2020 9:52 PM

Tinplate Toddler
How about actually building one of your mental creations instead of generating idea after idea, which most likely will never be realized? When I was 10 years old, I made big plans for a layout that had no chance to ever be built. I assume your are not 10 years of age.

Well, I dont have the time or resources to start due to the pandemic and being a beginner so it will take time to develop the skill. I know my username might sound odd, but its my first time on a forum such as this (I'm a young guy) but it was something I wanted to make. Alot of forum names are like that, and what I came up at the time, is what I came up at the time.

I mean I joined to I could ask for impute on my ideas. Thats the one way as this forum is quite knowladgable. I mean give me time (and slack) to make it a reality with whats going on at the moment, being Covid 19. As for that layout of yours, did you reconfigure your idea to be built in way that could be built.

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Posted by xdford on Friday, June 5, 2020 11:38 PM

Hi there,

When I was a teen, I saw a "Trackside Photo" of a 0-6-0 that I fell in love with and vowed one day, I would do. The boiler was made from conduit and thought it in my range. Fast forward many years later and I have a Proto 0-6-0 that filled the need. 

Similarly I had plans and ideas for expansion, loco acquisitions or rebuilds etc, that have not happened through a variety of reasons, mainly time being taken by other tasks, work, family, travel and just maintenance of that which I do have. 

I did marvel at the work of others at the time and I remember reading about models of "Could Have Been" Garratt locos being bashed from Mantua locos if any had existed in North American - boy would they have drawn some current back then!

One of my more recent whims was to cross an F45 body to an F7 nose to emaulate what Amtrak wanted in 1972 which was inspired by the Australian CL class loco and paint it in the D&H scheme similar to Bill McLanahans TRGW as I recall... The CL is available as a model now here in Australia and no I do not have one but maybe one day!

I "only" have a 4 x 8 which has had a few different extensions over the years which similarly I did not get around to expanding before moving here and being limited by room size - but I still have a lot of fun with it and develop different skills on a small scale.

My main aim is to operate it prototypically simulating operations witnessed over the years and enjoy it. The accuracy of the models is questionable but those who criticise my layout and scheme as needing too much imagination are in need oof a lot more imagination to run what they have - virtually nothing!

Feel free to PM me... I have a couple of things you may be interested in article wise... totally gratis!!

Cheers from Australia

Trevor   - my sites for your interest

http://xdford.freeasphost.net/stag01.html

https://sites.google.com/view/stagnesrailway

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, June 6, 2020 10:23 PM

Random_Idea_Poster_6263
...1. Remove N&W pilot cowcatcher, add a PRR style one with folded coupler.

That's not really much of a big deal, as Cal-Scale (Bowser) and Precision Scale have lots from which to choose.
I replaced the generic USRA-style pilot on this brass 2-10-2...

...with a CNR-style pilot, which was, I believe, from either PSC or PIA...

Random_Idea_Poster_6263
2. The Belmont firebox. 3D print and add one on?

It's easy enough to create the shape of a Belpaire firebox using sheet material (styrene or brass) for the flat portions and filling in the rest with epoxy body-filler, then file or sand to the finished shape.

Random_Idea_Poster_6263
3. Bell is added to the front. The headlight, is raised to the top of the smokebox.

As mentioned, the headlight would be mounted on the front deck of the lead engine, likely similar to that on the N&W loco.

Random_Idea_Poster_6263
5. A PRR style cab with rounded window. Would need to remove the current N&W cab.

I've removed cabs from several brass and plastic locos and replaced them with different style brass or plastic cabs...

Here's that brass 2-10-2 with a brass cab from Kemtron...

...and for this diecast Pacific, from John English...

 ...added a similar plastic version of the Kemtron cab...

I don't have a photo of the "stock" Bachmann Northern, but removed the original front end, and replaced the pilot with one from Cal-Scale, along with twin air pumps and radiator, and a new package of lights and markers, etc....

 

...and then scratchbuilt vestibule-style cab sides from sheet styrene, cementing them to the sanded-smooth sides of the stock cab.  Whatever of the original cab that showed through the cab windows was then carefully removed with an X-Acto knife...

 Well, it was my intention to add some more examples, but it seems that this site has considered my input to be either finished or long enough that it's time for me to quit...I did not post this response, as I had not completed it.

Wayne

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, June 7, 2020 2:15 AM

Wayne: keep going.  This stuff is golden advice to him, both in ideas and practical technique.

i do recommend that you break posts with lots of pictures into a series of shorter ones that are the equivalent of shorter 'paragraphs' because even scrolling down to reply or to highlight stuff to be quoted as a reply can get tedious.  Some of the Trains Magazine forum posts were monster long before their authors decided to post them in 'sections'.

The one thing I would add is something I mentioned via PM to the OP: if you add something like a cast pilot, remember to also add the structure that the prototype would need to hold it, and account for the change in weight.  That would be particularly true for a drop-coupler cast-steel pilot capable of accommodating the drawbar pull of an A-sized simple articulated...

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Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Wednesday, June 24, 2020 7:37 AM

doctorwayne


The Headlight - As mentioned, the headlight would be mounted on the front deck of the lead engine, likely similar to that on the N&W loco.


Sorry for the late reply Wayne, but thanks for your impute. It will help me well in my endevour once I get to it. The technique to create the shape of the Belpaire firebox I like, and will test on another test locomotive to before applying it on an HO scale Class A.

I should ask why do you think the headlight should remain where it is. The creater told me when I was emailing him asking for specifics on his creation, told me he took inspiration from the PRRs Q2 & J1 locomotives thus resulting in this.

He said I would need the J1s Cab, A HO scale Class A with standard rods (I will choose a broadway limited HO scale version for this project) a coast to coast tender like the J1 did and the Q2s smokebox face and pilot. I looked persicion brass parts and even found a prr pilot that looked like the Q2s so thats good.

He even told me he had no trouble sending me the sound files, although I would need to decide on a sound decoder, file bit size etc to choose. That was good as well.

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, June 24, 2020 8:28 AM

 I haven't seen Casey posting here in a long time. He does have a facebook page under his real name. I've seen his moodels close up at meets, and even sat in on a clinic he gave on how he makes his boilers. It seems very straighforward, but I'm sure alot of practice is required. He's made some very nice locos that you can't get, or are only available in very rare brass form, usually by taking a commercial plastic model's running gear as the starting point and altering detail or just making completely new boilers and cabs. The finished product, close up, is as good as anything you can buy. This is a small sampling of his locos he had at this particular show:

 

                                     --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:09 PM

rrinker

 I haven't seen Casey posting here in a long time. He does have a facebook page under his real name. I've seen his moodels close up at meets, and even sat in on a clinic he gave on how he makes his boilers. It seems very straighforward, but I'm sure alot of practice is required. He's made some very nice locos that you can't get, or are only available in very rare brass form, usually by taking a commercial plastic model's running gear as the starting point and altering detail or just making completely new boilers and cabs. The finished product, close up, is as good as anything you can buy. This is a small sampling of his locos he had at this particular show:

 

                                     --Randy

 



Hi Randy, I dont recall seeing this modeller "Casey," mentioned in the discusison as its been some time. I wish I could ask him for advice, and hope hes ok. Thanks for showing me this picture of his work on display, as it gives me inspiration as what I can do in brass.

 

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Posted by BigDaddy on Thursday, June 25, 2020 7:01 PM

He posted a Flickr link in his profile 

 

He has also posted on Youtube in the last month

Henry

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Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:37 PM

BigDaddy

He posted a Flickr link in his profile 

 

He has also posted on Youtube in the last month

 



Hey thanks, I will ask him for his advice. Thanks for mentioning.

 

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Posted by chenxue on Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:38 PM

Tinplate Toddler
How about actually building one of your mental creations

I was reading this ambitious thread, and didn't even realize it was Random_ID until then...  I feel a little bit trolled...AngryEmbarrassed  oh,well...

Cid    (Memphis, Tennessee)

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Posted by Random_Idea_Poster_6263 on Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:50 PM

chenxue

 

 
Tinplate Toddler
How about actually building one of your mental creations

 

I was reading this ambitious thread, and didn't even realize it was Random_ID until then...  I feel a little bit trolled...AngryEmbarrassed  oh,well...



I hope I didnt make you feel bad, I kinda regret my username now as it was my first time creating a forum username. Will have to get it changed.
 

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