Both Grubba and Wolf are former Lionel people. They can't shake their toy train backgrounds.
That really sums it all up. And nothing against that if you like it, but HO has historically had a bit of a different focus until more recently.
Now HO does have a much larger RTR, casual play value following than it ever had before.
And, many older "modeler" types like myself have embraced some degree of RTR with or without sound, smoke, etc.
I admit, I like buying some stuff ready to run and possibly just doing a little "kit bashing" to it, leaving me more time for other more involved modeling projects.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But then again, I only need to add about 6-8 locos to my 140 loco fleet and I will have all the locos I ever wanted or needed for my layout theme.
But then again, I only need to add about 6-8 locos to my 140 loco fleet and I will have all the locos I ever wanted or needed for my layout theme.
That's what I said, yet they keep coming!
I wish BLI still sold some "No sound" engines like PCM used to.
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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Grubba was an engineer at lionel , Mike wolf never worked for lionel. He started and owns MTH electric trains that he started in the late 80's
MTH did do some contracted work for lionel in the late 80's and 90's.
Williams, MTH and Lionel all started the scale 3 rail segment of O gauge
in the early 90's and it has continued since.
Dave
DAVID FORTNEY Grubba was an engineer at lionel , Mike wolf never worked for lionel. He started and owns MTH electric trains that he started in the late 80's MTH did do some contracted work for lionel in the late 80's and 90's. Williams, MTH and Lionel all started the scale 3 rail segment of O gauge in the early 90's and it has continued since. Dave
True, Mike Wolf never worked for LIONEL, but the point is they both come from the O gauge high rail world, which remains different from the HO scale world.
And to varying degrees, both have trouble fully understanding the HO market....
OR, as I have suggested for years,
they arrogantly assume they can "change" the HO hobby.
And, maybe they have expanded or created a new aspect to HO, but the expectation that all HO modelers will embrace those aspects is arrogant at best.....
Since there has been a diversion into talking about sound, I'll add my thoughts.
I don't model steam, rather modern diesels, so my comments come from that angle.
I've come to consider the sound of the horn and bell to be essential items of detail when conducting operations. Kind of like how some might consider box car ends or smoke box contour to be essential items of detail on any accurate model. Plus, I simply enjoy them.
Add ditch lights that alternate flashing when the horn is activated and it becomes that much more realistic and enjoyable for me.
Prime mover sounds can be a bit annoying if not done well, and IMO, EMD PM sounds can just be too whiny after a while. LokSound and Tsunami2's representation of Alcos is outstanding however. An added detail worth leaving at a high volume level, but I mainly adjust individual sound volumes to have the horn and bell prominate while the PM sound should drone rather quietly in the background. Reving and notching is a nice touch.
All of the other sounds such as coupler clank, brake squeel, engineer or conductor voices, etc seem gimmicky to me. The CVs on those sounds are set to 0 immediately upon first programming.
- Douglas
Doughless Since there has been a diversion into talking about sound, I'll add my thoughts. I don't model steam, rather modern diesels, so my comments come from that angle. I've come to consider the sound of the horn and bell to be essential items of detail when conducting operations. Kind of like how some might consider box car ends or smoke box contour to be essential items of detail on any accurate model. Plus, I simply enjoy them. Add ditch lights that alternate flashing when the horn is activated and it becomes that much more realistic and enjoyable for me. Prime mover sounds can be a bit annoying if not done well, and IMO, EMD PM sounds can just be too whiny after a while. LokSound and Tsunami2's representation of Alcos is outstanding however. An added detail worth leaving at a high volume level, but I mainly adjust individual sound volumes to have the horn and bell prominate while the PM sound should drone rather quietly in the background. Reving and notching is a nice touch. All of the other sounds such as coupler clank, brake squeel, engineer or conductor voices, etc seem gimmicky to me. The CVs on those sounds are set to 0 immediately upon first programming.
More than a decade ago, a number of local modeler know all agreed that it would be good to just have bells, whistles, and horns without chuff or prime movers........
Still waiting for the CV that does that....
ATLANTIC CENTRALStill waiting for the CV that does that....
When you silence the prime mover with F8, at least on Loksound decoders you still have whistle and bell and air sounds.
Regards, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless Since there has been a diversion into talking about sound, I'll add my thoughts. I don't model steam, rather modern diesels, so my comments come from that angle. I've come to consider the sound of the horn and bell to be essential items of detail when conducting operations. Kind of like how some might consider box car ends or smoke box contour to be essential items of detail on any accurate model. Plus, I simply enjoy them. Add ditch lights that alternate flashing when the horn is activated and it becomes that much more realistic and enjoyable for me. Prime mover sounds can be a bit annoying if not done well, and IMO, EMD PM sounds can just be too whiny after a while. LokSound and Tsunami2's representation of Alcos is outstanding however. An added detail worth leaving at a high volume level, but I mainly adjust individual sound volumes to have the horn and bell prominate while the PM sound should drone rather quietly in the background. Reving and notching is a nice touch. All of the other sounds such as coupler clank, brake squeel, engineer or conductor voices, etc seem gimmicky to me. The CVs on those sounds are set to 0 immediately upon first programming. More than a decade ago, a number of local modeler know all agreed that it would be good to just have bells, whistles, and horns without chuff or prime movers........ Still waiting for the CV that does that.... Sheldon
Overall, the piling-on of useless features in the name of higher quality is an aspect of the digital age that is a pet peeve of mine. Do I really need a TV screen on my refrigerator door, or even on a telephone for that matter? Maybe its just me, but I can step away for a while without having to watch video.
I think the stripped down versions of some sound decoders offer something like that. Bachmann Sound Value and Economi have those sounds plus the PM, but nothing else, for less cost, which is nice. They say that motor control has not been compromised, but I noticed less sensitivity with slow speed control, but that could be a lower quality motor they tend to come installed with the OEM versions.
I'm waiting for less sound features in a highly detailed model.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless Since there has been a diversion into talking about sound, I'll add my thoughts. I don't model steam, rather modern diesels, so my comments come from that angle. I've come to consider the sound of the horn and bell to be essential items of detail when conducting operations. Kind of like how some might consider box car ends or smoke box contour to be essential items of detail on any accurate model. Plus, I simply enjoy them. Add ditch lights that alternate flashing when the horn is activated and it becomes that much more realistic and enjoyable for me. Prime mover sounds can be a bit annoying if not done well, and IMO, EMD PM sounds can just be too whiny after a while. LokSound and Tsunami2's representation of Alcos is outstanding however. An added detail worth leaving at a high volume level, but I mainly adjust individual sound volumes to have the horn and bell prominate while the PM sound should drone rather quietly in the background. Reving and notching is a nice touch. All of the other sounds such as coupler clank, brake squeel, engineer or conductor voices, etc seem gimmicky to me. The CVs on those sounds are set to 0 immediately upon first programming. More than a decade ago, a number of local modeler know all agreed that it would be good to just have bells, whistles, and horns without chuff or prime movers........ Still waiting for the CV that does that.... Sheldon Overall, the piling-on of useless features in the name of higher quality is an aspect of the digital age that is a pet peeve of mine. Do I really need a TV screen on my refrigerator door, or even on a telephone for that matter? Maybe its just me, but I can step away for a while without having to watch video. I think the stripped down versions of some sound decoders offer something like that. Bachmann Sound Value and Economi have those sounds plus the PM, but nothing else, for less cost, which is nice. They say that motor control has not been compromised, but I noticed less sensitivity with slow speed control, but that could be a lower quality motor they tend to come installed with the OEM versions. I'm waiting for less sound features in a highly detailed model.
On a similar note, I have long felt that Broadway Limited and MTH are very "crafty" and figuring out what details they can leave off without loosing the overall effect too much, while focusing more on sound, and trying to make the models more "handling friendly", that is less fragile.
Justy a few years back, you started to hear newer modelers, who are very RTR oriented, complain that the models were too fragile.
Compare a Broadway E8 to the original Proto2000 E8, the Proto is way more detailed, hands down. Just one example.
gmpullman ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still waiting for the CV that does that.... When you silence the prime mover with F8, at least on Loksound decoders you still have whistle and bell and air sounds. Regards, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Still waiting for the CV that does that....
Well that is a recent development because a few years back when I was running on a half dozen DCC layouts on a regular basis, F8 gave you total silence.
But that will still not get me to invest in 140 decoders and 10 wireless throttles........
Yes that is the case with LokSound, and I'm glad they did that. However, every one that I have set on F8 mute continues to generate some sort of a spitting sound, like a valve release every 4 seconds. Silent when running except for a recurring spit that apparently escaped the mute setting. Unless there is another CV setting for muting that individual sound, I'd rather cover it up with the prime mover sound.
Its ok, Loksound and T2 have evolved to where the PM sounds aren't bad. I really have no complaints except I generally still can't take turbo squeel.
DoughlessSilent when running except for a recurring spit that apparently escaped the mute setting.
I seem to recall there's also a CV setting to have the "spitter valves" quiet when the prime mover is deactivated. Buried in the manual somewhere, IIRC.
Generally, I set the volume pretty low on the spitter valves anyway.
Ed
gmpullman Doughless Silent when running except for a recurring spit that apparently escaped the mute setting. I seem to recall there's also a CV setting to have the "spitter valves" quiet when the prime mover is deactivated. Buried in the manual somewhere, IIRC. Generally, I set the volume pretty low on the spitter valves anyway. Ed
Doughless Silent when running except for a recurring spit that apparently escaped the mute setting.
Yeah, its probably one of those minor technical design oversights where that one sound escapes the F8 mute command. I've never bothered to hunt down the actual individual volume CV.
Aren't those valves largely or wholly mechanical, and intended to be operating any time a consist has good brake-reservoir pressure with 'ambient' condensation, not just when a unit is actively pumping?
There seems to have been a change sometime in the early '90s to a type of valve that has a rather continuous pop - pop - pop sound.
http://www.grahamwhite.com/products/drain-valves/580-series-automatic-drain-valves
Most of my roster of diesels is first- and second generation locomotives. My recollection of these is more of a pressure-relief sound that tapers off, as if you were relieving the pressure on a line.
I still have to experiment with the "spitter valve" settings on sound decoders. Sometimes I can not find the "old-style" ones I'm familiar with.
I believe the gist of the ESU system is that the two types are in two different sound slots and you simply mute, through volume CVs, the one you do not want active.
gmpullmanMost of my roster of diesels is first- and second generation locomotives. My recollection of these is more of a pressure-relief sound that tapers off, as if you were relieving the pressure on a line.
Ed, weren't these designed to be 'failure-proof' so that if something stuck it wouldn't bleed away all the air?
I sorta remember a design in which reservoir pressure charged a chamber of 'proportioned' size such that air at reasonable pressure would clear a filled trap, after which an interlocked valve would close. In operation some sort of dashpotted float would indicate the trap was filled, at which point only the chamber air would be admitted to blow the water out of the trap (with the pressure-dying-away sound effect mentioned). Only when the float dropped would the chamber be cycled full again to 'arm' the system for the next discharge event. I'll bet you have detailed descriptions of early 'self-clearing' air-system condensate-trap operation in that library of yours!
OvermodI sorta remember a design in which reservoir pressure charged a chamber of 'proportioned' size such that air at reasonable pressure would clear a filled trap, after which an interlocked valve would close.
I quite agree and recall such a system. Presently, I can only find a reference to this New York Air Brake system which seems to rely on pilot air from the compressor governor:
Main-res-drain-layout by Edmund, on Flickr
Here is a close-up of the sump at the radiator but there is no apparent "interlock" between it and the drain valve.
Main-res-drain by Edmund, on Flickr
If I find anything further, I'll post it.
MTH is just cloning what they do in O gauge down to HO as the technoligy allows them. The smoking whistle and other gimick crap have been going on for some time now in O gauge, so it was only a matter of time till smoke units became small enough with the volume and fan drive to do more than just go up the stack. I am another one who's asthma does not like smoke units. I can do ok with my G scale live steamers, but that is different and not just oil fumes up the stack. So my O scale in the past and now American OO do not have smoke units. Only filling the room with the wonderful smell of ozone and hot oil. Makes you wonder what the next step is in HO for a gimick to sell models? Figuring out how to safely color the smoke? Leave it to MTH to lead the with the "play" factor Atleast on these models, just as on the O gauge, there is an OFF switch or digitaly controled OFF switch for the smoke unit. So the nice models can still be run where they would be banned, such as a club or other venue.
Mikie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome