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First vs second run Broadway Limited NYC J1e Hudsons

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First vs second run Broadway Limited NYC J1e Hudsons
Posted by HO Loco loco on Thursday, April 23, 2020 7:51 AM

Are there differences between first and second run (2005) BLI NYC J1e Hudson steam locomotives beside just their prices being different?  Thank you.

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Posted by tstage on Thursday, April 23, 2020 9:34 AM

The decoder would be a Paragon 2 rather than the Paragon of the first run.  The tooling, however, should be pretty much the same.  I only have the Paragon 2 and it runs great.

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, April 23, 2020 9:39 AM

I have one from the first run. It is the Paragon series with a QSI decoder. Not long after I bought it in 2004 or 2005, I had to upgrade the decoder with an add-on chip to resolve some performance problems. That was common for that particular loco.

Rich 

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Posted by tstage on Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:41 AM

Yea, I had a BLI 2-8-2 Mike that required the same thing, Rich.  I had forgotten about that...

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Posted by selector on Thursday, April 23, 2020 11:03 AM

I have one of each issue, and I don't see a difference.  Just the sounds, which is unfortunate because I don't happen to think the P2 versions are very accurate.  But for tooling, appearance, and performance, they're twins.

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, April 23, 2020 11:21 AM

selector

I have one of each issue, and I don't see a difference.  Just the sounds, which is unfortunate because I don't happen to think the P2 versions are very accurate.  But for tooling, appearance, and performance, they're twins. 

Did you buy the earlier edition new? If used, the original owner may have upgraded the chip. If new, I seem to recall that not every loco in the series required the upgrade chip. It was a hit and miss proposition.

Rich

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Posted by BRVRR on Thursday, April 23, 2020 11:56 AM

My BLI Hudson was a 2005 Christmas present from my wife. It is also my autistic grandson's favorite locomotive. It has had its wheels run of over the past 6-7 years but still happily tools around the layout with 10-car passenger trains or 10-20 car mixed trains. There has never been a problem of any kind. As a matter of fact is is on the layout with a 10-car freight train right now.

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, April 23, 2020 12:00 PM

If it required the update chip, you would know it. When I first bought my loco, it jerked and sputtered up and down the mainline.

Rich

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Thursday, April 23, 2020 1:38 PM

First run Hudson here as well.  Mostly fine, but the motor shaft gear started to slip.  A drop of CA fixed it.

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, April 23, 2020 8:10 PM

There was more to it than just a decoder upgrade. BLI even had a "buyback" plan where, for a hundred bucks, you could send them your 2002, model 001,2, or 3 Hudson and they would replace it with a "new and improived" version.

The early BLI models had QSI Quantum V 6.0 decoders in them, the chip made them V 7.0 IIRC. (I'll have to dig out my upgrade instructions)

There were changes to the drive and IIRC, how the actual rail pickup worked, i.e. split frame over wheel wipers.

Yes there were QSI "Quantum Sound"  upgrade chips but for the Hudson it went beyond that. The Paragon decoder came later. The upgrade chip was for Quantum decoders:

https://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/staff-reviews/2006/11/qsi-upgrade-chip-for-quantum-decoders

Paragon Version 1 came along in late 2006 and Paragon 2 about a year or two later.


 

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/281000.aspx

BLI had no hesitation in dumping all the trade ins on the open market. They have their refurb outlet and back in the day they were selling grab bags full of bits-n-pieces. I seem to recall many of those first-run Hudsons were sold "as-is" with the decoders removed from the tender.

Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, April 23, 2020 8:26 PM

I can only say that when I installed the upgrade chip, the performance problems disappeared. Sixteen years later, it is still one of my favorite steamers.

Rich

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Posted by Paul3 on Thursday, April 23, 2020 11:28 PM

The very first BLI NYC Hudsons had some pickup problems.  The wipers were too rigid and wouldn't follow along with the wheels that well.  This led to power interruption issues.

The second issue was with the drivers; the first run NYC Hudsons had sintered metal driver tires (think old Athearns) instead of nickel-silver plated drivers.  These tires were not painted to match the centers, and made them look like the NYC had painted them gray.  The later runs not only used N-S tires, but painted them black, too.  They look much better, IMHO, that the sintered wheels.

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Posted by selector on Friday, April 24, 2020 1:00 AM

richhotrain

 

 
selector

I have one of each issue, and I don't see a difference.  Just the sounds, which is unfortunate because I don't happen to think the P2 versions are very accurate.  But for tooling, appearance, and performance, they're twins. 

 

 

Did you buy the earlier edition new? If used, the original owner may have upgraded the chip. If new, I seem to recall that not every loco in the series required the upgrade chip. It was a hit and miss proposition.

 

Rich

 

 

Rich, I got one of the early ones that has the sintered wheels (now showing lots of brass on the tires) and an early QSI that came out with the BEMF disabled.  Mine jerks to a start.  I never did upgrade that decoder, so the loco, my first in the hobby, is pretty much as I purchased it, minus the sintering, of course.

I upgraded the early Niagara, T1 Duplex, and J1 2-10-4.  

The whistle sounds and bell sounds, which I love, are substantially different from the P2 audio files.

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, April 24, 2020 5:45 AM

selector
 

Rich, I got one of the early ones that has the sintered wheels (now showing lots of brass on the tires) and an early QSI that came out with the BEMF disabled.  Mine jerks to a start.  I never did upgrade that decoder, so the loco, my first in the hobby, is pretty much as I purchased it, minus the sintering, of course.

Thanks for the reply.

Rich

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Posted by Onewolf on Friday, April 24, 2020 9:34 AM

I have two of the original QSI Hudsons that run like crud and I can't even detect/program using JMRI.  What would be a good sound decoder to install as a replacement for the original decoder?  Thanks.

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Posted by selector on Friday, April 24, 2020 12:18 PM

TCS Wow, Tsunami 2, or the latest LokSound.  In each case, really you can take your pick, I'd shop by going to look for their sound file offerings.  Each of us (should?) have a good idea of the 'ideal' sounds for our locomotives, even if it's just what you first were exposed to in QSI decoders, as is my own case.  If you're open to just about anything, none of this matters, but if you would like something close to 'ideal', then go to their sites and listen to samples.  Pick a good match/batch of files, and then place your order.  Just remember to keep notes so you'll correctly identify the files you want included.

 

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Posted by Trainman440 on Friday, April 24, 2020 5:28 PM

I have one of the first first runs of BLI J1e (as others have mentioned, the 001, 002, or 003 varient)

In short, its mechanism is completely different than the second run(still paragon QSI sound). Second run and third run(paragon 2 sound) have identical mechanisms, just added smoke and new decoder. 

All three runs have the same shell details. 

While I paid only $40 for my first gen hudson, without sound from Ebay, I dislike it. It runs much louder(gear/motor noise) than my paragon 2 hudson(which runs silent!). Its no wonder shops were later selling first gen hudsons for around $100!

I painted the tires on mine black, and replaced the VERY blue LED headlight with a more yellow LED. 

The mechanism is also very unfriendly to servicing and modification. You can't remove the drivers without pulling the wheel of the axles, as the axles go into holes in the chassis, not clamped between the chassis and baseplate. As a result, there are no springs on the bearings. 

Don't get me wrong, as a first model to ever be released from a manufac, its very impressive, but their later renditions are certainly worth the extra price. 

I plan on selling it and eventually purchasing a second gen or newer engine, if I can ever find one for cheap. 

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, April 25, 2020 7:01 AM

Onewolf
What would be a good sound decoder to install as a replacement for the original decoder?  Thanks.

I have installed maybe two-dozen replacement steam decoders in some of my BLI engines. The first ones were Tsunami as they were the only game in town. Sounds were very good for the time. Motor control was OK.

Then I tried a few WOW sound steam. They sound great and have excellent motor control but I just can't comprehend that goofy Audio Assist thing No  All it takes is one errant push of a function button and I'm hearing church bells or a tug boat whistle Bang Head

Loksound Select and the recent Loksound 5 are excellent decoders but, in my opinion, their recordings of steam sounds are lacking. I've tried several variations and the quality of the sounds are not to my liking.

That leaves Tsunami 2 which is what I've been installing lately. So far, so good. And for an extra $25. the capicitor add-on is worthwhile on some of the BLI engines with finicky pickup. The BLI speakers are also lacking. Some better hi-bass speakers or even the ESU or Soundtraxx cube speakers are a better choice.

My 2 Cents YMMV, Cheers, Ed

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Posted by HO Loco loco on Sunday, April 26, 2020 9:43 AM

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies and insights.  It looks as though first runs had some motor control and pick-up shortcomings enough that BLI had a return for a swap to a second release unit program and/or a decoder upgrade.  

From their legacy product web page https://www.broadway-limited.com/discontinueditems.aspx  You can see which product numbers were first release and which were second.  That might explain why recently I've seen a fair number of first release product number units on the bay for very reasonable prices. I think were I to buy one I want either a second release product number unit or later (e.g. P2, P3).  Glad to hear some of you have had such a good long run operating yours.  Perhaps its luck of the draw or your unit was returned to BLI for some work and improvements by the original owner if purchased previously owned. 

Here are the 1st run and 2nd run listing from BLI's Legacy page in case you're interested.

Paragon NYC J1e (1st run) 

001 NYC J1e Hudson #5344 $    279.99

002 NYC J1e Hudson  #5343 $    279.99

003 NYC J1e Hudson unlettered $    279.99

020 NYC J1e Hudson #5324 Modern $    279.99

021 NYC J1e Hudson #5330 Modern $    279.99

022 NYC J1e Hudson #5334 Modern

Paragon NYC Hudson J1e/d (2nd run - 2005) 

060 NYC J1e Hudson, #5319 w/ Roman lettering, Sound, DC/DCC, HO $   329.99

061 NYC J1e Hudson, #5335 w/ block lettering, Sound, DC/DCC, HO $   329.99

062 NYC J1e Hudson, #5395, Big Four w/o water scoop, HO $    329.99

063 NYC J1e Hudson, #5398, Big Four w/o water scoop, Sound, DC/DCC, HO $    329.99

064 NYC J1d Hudson #5275 w/ Elesco FWH & striping, Sound, DC/DCC, HO $ 329.99

065 NYC J1d Hudson #5297 w/Elesco FWH & no striping, HO $329.99

066 NYC J1e Hudson 4-6-4 w/ Elesco FWH, painted w/striping, unlettered & unnumbered, HO $329.99

067 NYC J1e TH&B Hudson, #502 w/Elesco FWH & striping, HO (ex NYC J1d #5313) $    329.99

068 NYC J1e Hudson #5344 retooled, HO $    329.99

069 NYC J1e Hudson #5343 retooled, HO $    329.99

070 NYC J1e Hudson, ptd., unlettered, retooled, HO $    329.99

071 NYC J1e Hudson, Block lettering, #5324 retooled, HO $    329.99

072 NYC J1e Hudson, Block lettering, #5330 retooled, Sound, DC/DCC, HO $    329.99

073 NYC J1e Hudson, Block lettering, #5334 retooled, Sound, DC/DCC, HO $    329.99

074 NYC J1e TH&B Hudson, no FWH, #501, HO 

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, November 22, 2020 2:26 PM

I had a friend in MD who had some problems with his. I bought it and brought it back down to FL.

 

Broadway Ltd NYC J-1e, 4-6-4
Sound, DCC, and Smoke

 

This locomotive was almost new when it began experiencing an erratic chuff and weak smoke unit. I took it to the Broadway headquarters just south of me, and they did a complete refurbish job on it.

They replaced the entire engine with a 2nd run series, and they replaced the entire smoke unit. The tender was also replaced with its new decoder. So this engine is 'better than new'.

I have not run it at all since I got it back, as I did not have a layout (only now in the building phase).

I don't run any NYC engines so I'll likely be selling it. I own a few other QSI equipped locos of theirs. I only hope I don't have similar problems with them?...or have to get into replacing decoders??

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Posted by gmpullman on Sunday, November 22, 2020 2:58 PM

railandsail
I own a few other QSI equipped locos of theirs. I only hope I don't have similar problems with them?

Just look into your crystal ball — There's really no easy way to answer. I probably have fifty or more Broadway and PCS locomotives. Some of my oldest ones with QSI decoders run just as good as the day I bought them. Some of them I put the "upgrade" chip in them.

Many people stumble on the somewhat unorthodox "sleep mode" and the various reset methods both QSI and Paragon decoders have had over the years.

On a few I've had to replace the "chuff sensor" reed switch. Not too complicated but you have to get into the guts to get to it. A couple others have toasted the smoke unit, even after turning it off, and two of these destroyed the decoder when the smoke units smoked.

I really WANT to love BLI and I'll probably continue to buy their products but their track record, in my experience anyway, has not been all that great, especially with the Paragon 3 decoders. Slightly more than three out of four of the recent ones I've purchased have had to have decoders, motors, or both replaced.

When I buy a Broadway locomotive I do it with the realization that I'll probably be replacing the decoder, especially in the recent runs.

I remember trading up my first NYC Hudson must be twenty years ago? Yes, the first run had some issues. The replacement from Broadway is still running fine today with the QSI V6 (IIRC) decoder.

Regards, Ed

 

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Posted by thomas81z on Sunday, November 22, 2020 5:26 PM

gmpullman

 

 
railandsail
I own a few other QSI equipped locos of theirs. I only hope I don't have similar problems with them?

 

Just look into your crystal ball — There's really no easy way to answer. I probably have fifty or more Broadway and PCS locomotives. Some of my oldest ones with QSI decoders run just as good as the day I bought them. Some of them I put the "upgrade" chip in them.

Many people stumble on the somewhat unorthodox "sleep mode" and the various reset methods both QSI and Paragon decoders have had over the years.

On a few I've had to replace the "chuff sensor" reed switch. Not too complicated but you have to get into the guts to get to it. A couple others have toasted the smoke unit, even after turning it off, and two of these destroyed the decoder when the smoke units smoked.

I really WANT to love BLI and I'll probably continue to buy their products but their track record, in my experience anyway, has not been all that great, especially with the Paragon 3 decoders. Slightly more than three out of four of the recent ones I've purchased have had to have decoders, motors, or both replaced.

When I buy a Broadway locomotive I do it with the realization that I'll probably be replacing the decoder, especially in the recent runs.

I remember trading up my first NYC Hudson must be twenty years ago? Yes, the first run had some issues. The replacement from Broadway is still running fine today with the QSI V6 (IIRC) decoder.

Regards, Ed

 

 

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Posted by railandsail on Monday, November 23, 2020 5:49 AM

I really WANT to love BLI and I'll probably continue to buy their products but their track record, in my experience anyway, has not been all that great, especially with the Paragon 3 decoders. Slightly more than three out of four of the recent ones I've purchased have had to have decoders, motors, or both replaced.

That is really depressing to hear. I believe I have a fair number of these.

Any idea of what exactly fails on these decoders? And does Broadway stand behind engines that may be over a year old (and never run during their early life, or at all)??

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Posted by selector on Monday, November 23, 2020 12:54 PM

I don't like to cast aspersions on any importer/manufacturer in the hobby, but I do think that BLI has had some difficulty over the past maybe eight years now with some niggling QA issues.  Their original Platinum, PCM, and Paragon items, and later the BlueLine DC options, were generally very good quality and dependable.  Where people had some problems, BLI had a good record of repairs and returns, and to me they were both professional and kind.  They replaced a QSI decoder in my first Niagara when I assembled the axles under the tender backwards and fried it.  They didn't charge me for the repair.

When they moved into Brass Hybrids, they also began to use their own decoders very soon after that, maybe even at the same time...I forget.  The sounds changed from the QSI series, sounds which my mind had gotten used to hearing.  That was disappointing, personally, but if I wanted some nice steamers, that was the way to go.

BLI had some problem runs back in the 2014 time frame.  They moved into Paragon 3 maybe four years ago, five now?, and that was when people began to complain about the smoke units and decoders.  Unfortunately, we who go to forums will find posts from people who report troubles, and that is what we see about BLI's P3 decoders.  It happened to MRC 13 years ago.  There must have been many who had a trouble-free experience, and I'm guessing this is true of BLI.

Does BLI stand behind their product?  Yes, absolutely, and at least as good as any other importer in the hobby.  Will they 'understand' if you make a claim that the defective item was just opened, now three years after purchase, and it doesn't work?  Maybe....it can't hurt to explain and hope they'll take a look.  

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