Not sure if everyone is already aware of this but...
Lionel's release of the old Mantua 2-8-2 with 4-6-2 boiler is coming soon.
http://catalogs.lionel.com/2020/HO/Sheets/Mikados.pdf
Features can motor and flywheel, DC/DCC/LionChief Control...MSRP of $289.99(!!!)
Not sure how popular these models will be, but I'm curious as to how this will play out.
Cheers!
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
I'd guess the main comparison would be with the Bachmann 2-8-2's. Both models seem to be based on rather old tooling at this point, but just going off photos the Baachmann ones look just a bit nicer.
At least it has the pilot and trailer wheels.
Have to see what the street price ends up being. Bachmann tends to list fairly high MSRP but you can get them for well under that. Walthers as well. But really, a model of nothing, vs the Bachmann which at least makes an attempt to use different details to appear more like a specific prototype.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
xboxtravis7992 I'd guess the main comparison would be with the Bachmann 2-8-2's. Both models seem to be based on rather old tooling at this point, but just going off photos the Baachmann ones look just a bit nicer.
Old tooling indeed - both the Mantua 2-8-2 (with its original and somewhat improbable D shaped boiler) and 4-6-2 (the B&O boiler which Lionel has chosen to mate with the 2-8-2 chassis, as Mantua itself did in the later years as an option) date to the early 1950s. Lots of cast on detail which is frankly a chore to remove on these cast metal boilers. The valve gear still looks OK however.
The Bachmann tooling is much much newer.
But let it be noted that there was also separately applied detail on the original Pacific boiler that the Lionel photo seems to omit: originally there was a throttle rod equalizer and throttle cam shaft arm. Extra holes, posts and wire were provided for a throttle rod. In Lionel's defense I think Mantua/Tyco itself started to omit that detail in later years but it was there originally and adds considerably to the realism of the model. Also either the Lionel paint looks thick, or perhaps the age of the tooling has started to cost the crispness of detail that one originally saw in the generator, pop valves, boiler check valves, injector, and air cooling pipes, tanks, feedwater heater and steam chest covers. This was a highly detailed boiler casting in its day. But its day was in 1952!
Dave Nelson (also dated 1952)
Man, I was really excited at the prospect of Mantua products coming back in some form, because I do really like them for some reason. That being said, at the price point this is being marketed at, it's a strong no from me. When late production Mantuas from the late 90's have similar production quality and a much lower price, it isn't worth it. Even the Model Power runs can be had for much less, and those were pretty great. At a similar price point you could get a much better detailed steam locomotive from somewhere else, and the beginner demographic that I think Lionel is targeting with these models probably won't want to pay that much to get started.
-Peter. Mantua collector, 3D printing enthusiast, Korail modeler.
As with every other time Lionel has tried the HO market, they haven't a clue. After 4 time, you think they'd be able to figure it out, but there has to be some driver that keeps them sticking with a business model doomed to fail. Must be the collector attitude, but they just don;t get it - the Lionel name no longer holds the prestige among the general public as it once did, and anyone astute enough to know these are the former Model Power, former Mantua locos will know they can get the exact same thing for a fraction of the price at train shows or on eBay. ANd the lack of the Lionel name isn;t a barrier to those people - in fact I'd say a REAL collector would want the Mantua original, not a Lionel knockoff.
I wonder if they hope the appeal will fall on the Olde Tymers who used to run such engines, now long gone, and who might hope to capture that thrill of yesteryear when they were 10 and Mom 'n Pop set up a rudimentary layout one Christmas eve after the kids had fallen asleep. It's probably going to be very robust, maybe quite heavy, probably DCC-ready (? haven't looked).
Nostalgia, IOW, might be the catalyst they hope will earn them a few thousand sales.
Well, they do have DCC and sound, plus Lionel's Bluetooth control.
Those old Mantua engines, with their cast metal boilers, weighed a ton and would pull like mad.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Hi there. I can't really see from the pictures how the engines turn out. I have a few Mantuas, and the details were not great. I don't care much for the plastic trailing and pilot wheels, and it seems that Lionel did not improve the model on that front. I also never liked the Mantua cabs... I don't recall seeing any engineer on any of the original locos. I don't see any improvement there either. The original wheels on the Mikado also looked a bit too thick, at least to my eyes. I have a later model of the Pacific, and the connector between the engine and the tender was also not the greatest. The Lionel model does seem to have an improved drive-train, with a U-joint attached. For me, that's an important feature. If the boiler is easy to remove (the old ones were super easy), then maintenance should not be an issue. I don't like returning engines to the manufacturer.
I will look forward to seeing reviews of the Lionel vs. Bachmann. I agree that the Bachmann will be tough competition. What I would watch out for: What is the pulling ability of the Bachmann? Is the drive train easily accessible? How do the details compare? I assume the gears on both engines will be durable, but time will tell.
I'm curious now about what will be the next Lionel deliveries. The Mantua mallets were good little engines and filled a niche for logging enthusiasts. And what about their old time cars?
Simon
Really? The recent Bachmann USRA 2-8-2 is brand new tooling. True, it is not ultra high detail, it is not in the Spectrum line. But it is actually as well detailed as the Broadway Limited model, and has several proto specific detail changes for various roadnames unlike the BLI model.
As for LIONEL bringing this back, what they have done is put the old Mantua Pacific boiler on the 2-8-2 running gear.
Something Mantua did several times as well, to create a reasonable USRA light Mike.
Looks like they might have made a few small upgrades, but I don't see much of a market for this among modelers.
Sheldon
I apologize, but I don't see why many are comparing the Mantua engine to Bachmann's?
Bachmann made three 2-8-2s in HO, (1) the Union Pacific pancake motor 2-8-2 that was really a Reading 2-8-0 with and extra trail truck and SP tender, (2) the Spectrum "Susquehanna" 2-8-2s, a chinese protoype I believe and (3) the far newer USRA 2-8-2, which is a very nice engine.
I don't see any of these being comparable to a Mantua 2-8-2. If anything, you could compare a Roundhouse or Bowser diecast kit, or maybe a Rivarossi model.
Not to say theyre bad engines; I had one of these, they're practically bulletproof!
The only way i see anyone buying this Mikado over the Bachmann one is if this has more pulling power. I did hear that Lionel upgraded the things "under the hood". Nonetheless its still an old Mantua mold...
Edit: Also i suspect this to sell below MSRP, so that may help (or hurt) Lionel.
Lets see, outdated Mantua bread with a 4th rate Lionel (just talking HO here, other Lionel are not in this catagory). My only question is why? As far as Bachmann, their new stuff is amazing and the real price, outstanding. Got an S4 for around $65, Sound is great and it runs great and the detailing is amazing. Sure you can get better stuff but not that much better and at 4x the price.
This doesn't seem like something that's gonna make it! HO guys will want more detail and more accuracy, which I don't like Lionel understands...
And the price looks very high, less than $100 cheaper than a much better BLI model.
When I look at the picture the locomotive just loois a bit wrong...
Well, I'll never buy this (even if I have 289.99 to spend on one locomotive!), but I am interested to see who it will sell to.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
Years ago, Märklin began to release limited editions of replicas of "classic" or iconic engines, like the famous Swiss crocodile and others. They had modern drives, Märklin´s proprietary DCC system and sound. They sold very well to collectors maintaining fond memories of their beginning as model railroaders.
I imagine Mike is aiming at the same set of "nostalgic" collectors.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
selector I wonder if they hope the appeal will fall on the Olde Tymers who used to run such engines, now long gone, and who might hope to capture that thrill of yesteryear when they were 10 and Mom 'n Pop set up a rudimentary layout one Christmas eve after the kids had fallen asleep. It's probably going to be very robust, maybe quite heavy, probably DCC-ready (? haven't looked). Nostalgia, IOW, might be the catalyst they hope will earn them a few thousand sales.
Back in the day a lot of scratch builders including my dad would use a Mantua 2-8-2, 4-6-2 or the 0-4-0 drives for powering their locomotives.
The last scratch built engine my dad made was a 0-8-0 and for power he use a 2-8-2 drive. A common practice back then in making a 0-8-0 was not using the pony and trailing truck of a 2-8-2.. Of course some of those old masters made their own frames.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I have one of the Tyco kit versions with the original boiler that I paid only $3.00 for at a swap meet about a year or two ago. It's built like a tank, runs good, (with the original open frame motor, I might add) and could pull your socks off, but I would never pay $290.00 + tax for a new one. Even with all the upgrades, it's way over-priced if you ask me. Especially when you can buy the original and easily upgradable ones on sites like ebay and at local hobby shops and swap meets for dirt cheap. I agree that Lionel just doesn't seem to fully understand the HO market.
Each time they get into HO scale there are new people working at Lionel.
That change over in staff and the change in production location will affect how they produce and price the items.
Lionel is closed for the month of April 2020.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Andrew Falconer Each time they get into HO scale there are new people working at Lionel. That change over in staff and the change in production location will affect how they produce and price the items. Lionel is closed for the month of April 2020.
If that were true you would expect to see some change in their approach? Are they not smart enough to hire one person who knows a little something about the HO model train hobby? Because, it really is a different hobby than the O gauge/three rail model train hobby.
But it looks like they have the same "view" of HO that they had 50 years ago?
That it is just a smaller version of what they sell in high rail.
The "collector/toy" market in HO has always been small and volatile. While there is a "new collector market" for the high detail RTR locos of the last 15-20 years in HO, LIONEL clearly does not understand that part of the market either.
That market requires high detail and high prototype accuracy, something LIONEL has never really accomplished in HO.
My guess, these ex Mantua locos can be manufactured cheap, but with a certain "high quality" for what they are (good motors, correct assembly), largely because of their simplicity.
LIONEL fails to realize the market is largely too sophisticated for this 70 year old product and simply has no interest in a generic locomotive with very little detail.
Reliable, smooth drive, powerful, no small detail parts that break... nothing wrong with that. I know a few folks interested in steam but have been burnt with expensive lemons. And most modelers won't even try to fix the most minor problem. God knows how many new engines I adjusted or fixed after only a few years of light operation. I think there is a niche for these modelers who just want to run trains.
I will be curious to see what the street prices will be. I know that there is still a decent supply on the used market, but I think most people like to buy new from a reliable source (same group as above). I am curious to see how successful they will be.
Ya the detailing level is outdated, but for a DCC/sound/bluetooth-ap equipped engine, the list price isn't bad. I would have started with one of the later, more detailed engines, like the 4-4-2 or 2-6-6-2. On the GN 2-8-2 I would have used a different tender too - many used long Vandy tenders (which Mantua made); the USRA heavy engines used a shorter rectangular tender with four-wheel trucks.
Well Lionel should make parts for the old stuff because some modelers like me still use mantua locomotives.
Some of us want to upgrade our engines. I had a discussion a few months back about the general and it being possible to have the motor in the loco rather than the tender. This would be a perfect time to offer upgrades.
Personally I want someone to make Mantua Styled USRA lights with new molds.
What about the Lionel rolling stock? Is that also reworked Mantua?
Lefty
We have been discussing MTH/Lionel´s product and business philosophy in epic length in this forum and, as I read it, the common denominator of said discussions is, that they are doing it all wrong.
Really?
There are still in business, so someone must like what they have to offer.
Tinplate Toddler We have been discussing MTH/Lionel´s product and business philosophy in epic length in this forum and, as I read it, the common denominator of said discussions is, that they are doing it all wrong. Really? There are still in business, so someone must like what they have to offer.
They are doing it all wrong in HO, clearly evident by their on again, off again, limited selection of HO products.
They make their money in O gauge, they always have.
They understand those buyers.
Their problem in HO is that they think HO buyers are like O gauge buyers.
They do not understand, or want to admit, the difference in these two segments of the hobby.
The market here in the US, for HO trains similar to Marklin, that is a RTR complete "system" product line, is VERY SMALL.
Just look at the photos posted on this form. 99% are "craftsman" type layouts, and the craftsmanship is very high quality. I don't see any "snap together" track systems, few "RTR" structures, or other "toy like" features typically associated with O gauge high rail or HO systems like Marklin.
I'm not being critical of European RTR modeling or typical O gauge modeling.
I'm just saying they are different styles/approaches to this hobby that are reflected in the products offered to those various segments of the market.
But the market for a North American prototype version of Marklin in HO, or for a "scaled down" version of LIONEL O gauge, is VERY SMALL, yet that is exactly the kind of HO products Lionel has always offered.
And that is why they always fail.
AND, there are way less parents buying train sets for children, which also dramaticly limits the market for this type of product.
Very few people here in the US wants HO "toy trains", most want HO "model trains". Lionel insists on being in the "HO toy train" business everytime they venture into HO.
Although I have to say when I was 8 years old, shooting the exploding box car with the missile fromt he missile car was extremely satisfying.... Those were from the 1957 or so first shot at HO by Lionel. I got a pretty penny for those plus the atomic flat car a number of years ago when I sold them on eBay - there IS a market for that sort of thing but, as you say, it is VERY small. I think I only had 2 bidders on each item, or they would have gone pretty cheap. I still have the section gang car, we used to have that on a track halfway up the mountain on our holiday family room layout. I remember when my dad put the track in for it - dead short. He scratched his head for a while, then realized that the track nails he used went right through the plaster - into the metal screen underneath it.
Actually I would have to say the toy side of HO scale is much bigger than the serious model railroader side. I've helped at a local hobby shop at Christmas time. I was amazed at how much Model Power and Bachman was sold compared to the Atlas/Athearn Genesis Broadway and other serious prototype equipment. The stuff was flying off the shelves especially the military stuff. There is a market for that kind of trains and I know a few people at Lionel who are also serious modelers and they do intend to enter that market in the future. The more manufacturers that are in the HO scale hobby the better off for all of us remember that ! -- Ken
I agree with what Sheldon says about the different market expectations. I was recently binge watching "Sam's Trains" on youtube. He does a ton of high quality UK Model train reviews. It is pretty obvious that having all details, mechanism, paint, etc being prestine is very important in his scoring system. I doubt he has ever messed with the insides(gear repair, kitbashing, adding DCC, etc)of any of his 300+ engine fleet.
However, I must agree there is a huge market of people who are willing to pay for overpriced, flashy, unrealistic train sets...consumers..."people who will run it for a season and never run it again" type people who aren't vocal in these forums that Lionel are milking for cash.
And that's a real shame.
I think Lionel knows the exact market they are going after. The first engines from the old Mantua molds may be dated but they wil be lower priced dcc, dc and blue tooth with a few upgrades here and there to the tooling. Don't discount what Lionel is doing.
The lower end of the market is much larger then the higher end. Rarely is the lower end talked about on this forum. How many times is Bachmann, lifelike and others talked about? I'm not saying we should talk about the likes of tyco or starter sets everyday but we support the people that do without a condescending attitude. After all this is about model trains so let's include all.
Dave