I recently installed a LokSound V5 in an old P2K GN SD7 (build date 1953). I noticed that the model had a two chime horn pointing forward and a separate single chime pointing to the rear. Being a clever devil I configured the decoder to use a two chime sound slot (Leslie dual A125-A200) when the loco was set for forward and a single chime (Leslie A200) when it was set for rearward. Based on an online article I was led to believe that this was prototypical.
Question is: Is that correct? Would there have actually been a different horn used when backing this engine?
Thanks in advance,
George in Edgewood WA
I'm no GN expert, but I suspect that's not the case. Most likely, the horn towards the rear of the loco is so that when operating in reverse the horn is loud enough, as the horns pointing towards the F end may not have been loud enough by themselves.
My guess would be that they operated at the same time, whichever way the loco was running. Blowing the horn isn't something you want the engineer to take a lot of time thinking about, which having two horn cords to grab at would tend to do.
Can the decoder be configured so that two horns sound at the same time?
BTW, since you're new here, it may take a while before your post arte no longer moderated, so be patient with that. Others with prototype-specific knowledge may check in, so take my generic answer loosely if they beg to differ, as they're probably right.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
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I would leave it like you have it. It might not be prototypical, but the horns would sound different depending on where you were standing relative to the locomotive.
What you have done sounds like a good compromise.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
to the forum
We have some real model railroaders who certainly know.
My guess is they were not directional because horns are also used to signal train crew on the ground. It would also require a connection to the forward/reverse lever, which today with microprocessors everywhere, would be no big deal.
You do get clever points. How exactly did you do that?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
It may very well have been prototypical. And no spcial interconnect with with reverser needed. See this E-unit cab interior - TWO whistle cords. Bet on the roof of this, there is one horn facing front and one facing rearward.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7e/4a/a5/7e4aa5b10e20c493b0e82a7eb76df3ab.jpg
The engineer would like normally pull both at the same time though.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I wouldn't have guessed a water cooler either.
BigDaddyI wouldn't have guessed a water cooler either.
It looks like the water cooler valve is the only control the fireman has.
BigDaddy You do get clever points. How exactly did you do that?
It's easy enough to do with a LokProgrammer. In Function Mapping you just add another entry for F2, the horn function. In the Conditions column, specify two conditions, F2 and Reverse, and put the correct horn sound slot in the Sounds column. In the original line for F2, change the conditions to both F2 and Forward, and put the proper sound slot in the Sounds column.
In the default project you only get one horn sound which is globally picked out of a selection of 16 from the First Gen Horn Pack. So I replaced that horn pack with the Leslie twin chime from the LokSound Template Pack 1.9. Then I selected the single chime from the Template Pack and put it in an unoccupied sound slot.
I could have kept the original horn pack and used one of its 16 horns for either forward or reverse but I didn't like any of them for this application.
rrinkerIt may very well have been prototypical. And no spcial interconnect with with reverser needed. See this E-unit cab interior - TWO whistle cords. Bet on the roof of this, there is one horn facing front and one facing rearward. https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7e/4a/a5/7e4aa5b10e20c493b0e82a7eb76df3ab.jpg
Possibly.
Then again, I know some passenger locos were equipped with a horn/whistle that was toned down for use in the station for signalling where you don't want to deafen people with the standard horn. These are sometimes called a "peanut whistle" IIRC.
SeeYou190 BigDaddy I wouldn't have guessed a water cooler either. It looks like the water cooler valve is the only control the fireman has. -Kevin
BigDaddy I wouldn't have guessed a water cooler either.
Hey, he can control his windshield wiper, too!
mlehman rrinker It may very well have been prototypical. And no spcial interconnect with with reverser needed. See this E-unit cab interior - TWO whistle cords. Bet on the roof of this, there is one horn facing front and one facing rearward. https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7e/4a/a5/7e4aa5b10e20c493b0e82a7eb76df3ab.jpg Possibly. Then again, I know some passenger locos were equipped with a horn/whistle that was toned down for use in the station for signalling where you don't want to deafen people with the standard horn. These are sometimes called a "peanut whistle" IIRC.
rrinker It may very well have been prototypical. And no spcial interconnect with with reverser needed. See this E-unit cab interior - TWO whistle cords. Bet on the roof of this, there is one horn facing front and one facing rearward. https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7e/4a/a5/7e4aa5b10e20c493b0e82a7eb76df3ab.jpg
COuld be. I was trying to find that relatively famous photo of the cigar chomping (some captions say engineer, but more reliable sources point out it was the road foreman) at the controls of an E unit at speed, and I seem to recall he had his hand on both handles.
rrinker I was trying to find that relatively famous photo of the cigar chomping (some captions say engineer, but more reliable sources point out it was the road foreman) at the controls of an E unit at speed, and I seem to recall he had his hand on both handles.
Yeah, I've seen that one.
This is "close — but no cigar"
F_cab by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's my take on some of the horns. Several of my early EMD engine operator manuals mention a forward and rearward facing horn with a cord/valve for each.
Of course, many roads were still calling the flagman back so a rearward-facing horn would be needed for this as well as backup moves.
Originally, the Leslie A-200 was the horn of choice. Single note, one direction. Later these were supplanted with other multi-chime designs that could be arranged with some of the bells facing both ways.
Leslie_Supertyfon-a by Edmund, on Flickr
F_horn_NYC by Edmund, on Flickr
Once multi-chime horns replaced some of the single-note jobs I'm sure some of the railroads installed smaller, say an A-125, as a "yard whistle" for close-in signalling. I do remember some of the NYC F and E units set up like this as Mike points out.
Thousands of locomotives, many styles of horns and options for each railroad to choose so there wasn't really a "standard procedure" Some locomotives had three or four different horn configurations in their long careers.
The fireman actually got to play with fire on the steam-generator equipped passenger engines. He had a small remote panel on his side to monitor the operation and occasionally had to wander back and physically check the units.
Fireman_control by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
If you google "images Great Northern SD7", you can see where horns are located on GN SD7's.
They were on the top of the long hood near the cab. Two horns faced over the long hood, and one horn faced toward the short end. GN operated SD7's with the long hood as the forward end.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Guys, if the horn mentioned in the OP had a common manifold, all the bells will sound at the same time. As noted, the idea was to have one bell facing the rear for 'selective audibility' to the rear -- but it would blow right along with the others.
Locomotives with 'special attention' are the ones, as noted, with two separate horns having two separate valves. I first encountered this setup firsthand on CNJ (one of their RSD six-motor Alcos numbered in the low 1600s) where there was a 'wrong horn' (with as I recall a lower 'note' that was the rear-facing one (the locomotives at that time were operated long-hood-forward). Now, I know it was the 'wrong' horn because that's what the engineer said when I reached up to pull it, so its cord was surely close to the 'correct' forward horn's ... but as I was only just 4 at the time, I can probably be excused for not getting it right...
Some engineers chose to use 'both' horns at crossings in the Wilkes-Barre/Kingston area, to make a kind of 'hee-haw' sound that was much more distinctive than a chime horn would have been... very seldom did they blow them 'together' to get a chime effect. It might be interesting to conduct research before the 'edge of history' completely passes the single-note-airhorn era to see which engineers routinely used both horns in a typical A-220 style setup...
Now, it is possible that some 'chime' horns were made, or modified, to have individual control over one or more bells. If anyone has information on these (or would be able to find it quickly) it would be Ed.
But I have very, very, very little doubt that it is unprototypical to have one 'bell' of the specific horn referenced in the OP sound in one direction, or as if responding to a cord pull, and two 'bells' of it sounding otherwise.
It occurs to me that surely somebody recorded one of these locomotives and can check how they actually sounded in service.
Interesting thread! I never considered directional horns, but the picture with the two pull cords has me convinced!
I've also seen the cigar smoking engineer, did a quick search, nothing.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewiI've also seen the cigar smoking engineer, did a quick search, nothing.
Man in a hurry:
https://ctr.trains.com/photo-of-the-day/2019/03/man-in-a-hurry
Cheers, Ed
I have to agree that the idea of directional horns is very wrong. If an engine has a multi-chime airhorn, they all sound when the engineer pulls the cord. Two horn cords means two different horns used for different purposes. I lived along Progressive Rail's line for several years, and they have engines with both an airhorn and a Hancock air whistle. Some high-speed passenger steam engines in the 1930's-40's had a whistle and an air horn, because the air horn sound carried farther. But I've never heard of there being a "forward horn" and a "reverse horn" on any engine.
I believe in some backing moves, the engine is supposed to have it's bell ringing. BLI HO model NW-2 switchers have (had?) and option you could set so the bell always rang when the engine was backing up.
BTW, would have to track down a clear early photo, but I think GN SD-7s originally had single chime BLAT horns, one each direction, which were replaced with multi-chime horns later.
If the horn in question is really a combination of forward and reverse horns that operate independently, would there not be two seperate air lines going to it?
wjstixI have to agree that the idea of directional horns is very wrong.
F3_manual by Edmund, on Flickr
But at one time someone thought it was right.
EMD_E7_Air by Edmund, on Flickr
FWIW, the SD7 operator controls show two pull cords.
SD7_Operator-Controls by Edmund, on Flickr
Of course, some geeps and SDs were built with dual controls. These may have directional horns as well.
Ed, reading between the lines I think Stix is talking about directional chime horns, the same thing I was saying likely didn't exist.
You and I have both seen firsthand that two separate horns facing opposite directions, with two separate valves and cords, not only were commonly used but were employed for the specific purpose of 'signalling the rear' distinctively from other use of the horn as a warning device.
Now can you (or anyone else) find evidence for a chime horn with a manifold fitted with more than one valve, to selectively blow one or more 'rear-facing bells' to give this effect?
Potentially interesting is that I have yet to see an installation that used two opposite-facing horns that was later converted to a chime horn but retained the reverse-facing honker for its 'original' purpose. Suspect one of you better historians will know if such a thing was done somewhere, at least for a while, when a small-enough chime horn like a Westinghouse E2 was installed for 'forward' presumably 'adaptively reusing' the pre-existing valve and plumbing -- or was a newer, bigger valve or more air capacity always needed by default?
(I confess that I thought at one time that part of the idea of backward-facing bells on chime horns was that the reverse bells would sound 'louder' from the rear and hence affect the chord as heard there ... but that might be considerably overthinking the actual matter...)
gmpullman wrote: "The fireman actually got to play with fire on the steam-generator equipped passenger engines. He had a small remote panel on his side to monitor the operation and occasionally had to wander back and physically check the units."
Tell me about it. I still have my Vapor Steam Generator manual from back in the 1970's. I spent a lot of time in the back of FL9's checking those steam generators.
I recall the FL9's as having a forward-facing "Hancock horn" on the front (mounted between the front windows). There was also a smaller "backup whistle" on the rear of at least some of them while I was on them.
I only worked on Amtrak E8's a little as a fireman, I don't remember whether they had small backup whistles or not.
But aside from that, I don't recall any other engines as having "separately actuating" front/rear horns (particularly in freight). Just one horn lever with a combination of forward/rearward horns "up above"...
After all this forward and backward and discussion ... I actually thought about finding a picture of an actual Proto2000 Great Northern SD7 to see what the OP was talking about.
And lo and behold! what he has is just what he was saying, a two-chime horn facing the short hood, and a single bell facing the opposite way, right where the branched manifold from the double horn valves would be:
Frankly, I don't know if the locomotives were built with a two-note chime in this position or were refitted with it at some point -- a Great Northern historian might know.
It would certainly be correct for the OP to program his locomotive exactly as he says he did: with the chime horn operating for normal operation, and the single-note being used to signal the rear of the train as desired.
I do continue to suspect it would be 'incorrect' to use the horns directionally, with the chime sounding when operating short-hood-forward and the honker when long-hood forward ... but I don't think he said that. In short we have had a great deal of distraction, me contributing significantly to it, with the original point in the original post being most of the 'right' answer after all.
OvermodIn short we have had a great deal of distraction, me contributing significantly to it...
Don't beat your self up over this.
I wouldn't say that was a bad thing. We all learned something about how complex this subject is and how indications visible on a model aren't necessarily conclusive without additional data. Those are still important lessons in this hobby as we wait for that fabled GN historian to make their appearance to settle the specific. question.
Research skills is what questions like this teach and those are often underdeveloped in many modelers. Knowing how to discover useful info takes a little skill, but it's the sort of thing that is almost always accessible with a little effort once you walk through things a time or two.
BigDaddyMy guess is they were not directional because horns are also used to signal train crew on the ground.
Actually due to noise complaints and the introduction of radios horn signaling during switching was slowly phased out.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I'll have to double check, but I think just about every Athearn loco I have has the 3 horn, 2 forward, 1 backward arrangement. I just thought they all blasted off at the same time.
Actuall, dash 9 Spectrums, and Kato's have that same horn.
mlehman Can the decoder be configured so that two horns sound at the same time?
Yes it can. In the Sounds column in Function Mapping in LokProgrammer you can select multiple 'Sound Slots'. They will all play when the function is activated. Might not work very well for certain combinations of horns, since I have noticed that they are not all equally 'playable'.
As an aside I wish they had not called these routines 'sound slots'. They are more than just sound or even no sound at all. It's a little confusing.