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The Official Help An Idiot Fix His Royal Hudson Thread

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The Official Help An Idiot Fix His Royal Hudson Thread
Posted by BATMAN on Monday, January 13, 2020 2:22 PM

So I was watching a Rapido video where Jason and Bill were saying to clean the wheels of your new locomotives to get the manufacturing goo off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aiVSNe04bU 

Good idea and proceeded to do just that using the old paper towel soaked in alcohol trick. They were dirty wheels indeed and my cleaning method was so good that it tore the rubber traction tires right off on both engines. So it is Rapidos fault.Laugh

I thought I would take the opportunity to change out the traction tires to the regular wheels that came with the loco to see how the engine would handle my version of the Rogers Pass in the Canadian Rockies without the traction tires. This is where the trouble started. 

To make a long horrific story even longer, I ended up not being able to get the wheels back to where they belonged and in the process ended up with all the wheels out of alignment.

2850 bad..... 2861 good

 

So should I start by removing all the linkage from the two most rear wheelsets and try to align those properly with the front set or take the whole works off (which scares me at this point as I am not sure how to do this) or I will follow the lead of those in the know?

Or should I gather up the pieces and send them back to Rapido?

I will never become a master locomotive rebuilder if I don't start somewhere, so here is my chance.Huh?WhistlingLaugh

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Monday, January 13, 2020 3:24 PM

Thumbs UpThumbs Up for a Clear Title to the thread.  Instead of just being a cute title like:

"I Am An Idiot"      it attracts everyone who knows how to do this.

I am in the category of: I would like to know this.  When I don't know what I'm doing, I take a lot of pictures.  But surely this ought to be something that doesn't require a trip back to the factory.

Henry

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, January 13, 2020 3:38 PM

Is the axle with the traction tires the geared axle? If so, looks liek you just have it off by a tooth. Hopefully you did NOT twist any wheels in their axles, or the quarter is going to be off and you will need more than just a wrench to fix that.

 It looks liek all you need to do is disconnect the rid on the last driver, and pull them out and put them back in about a tooth clockwise, with the pin about where it is on the other two drivers. If it won;t go exactly, put it a bit further ahead (clockwise, looking at the same side as the photos) and turn the other two clockwise a bit to get the rod to line up so you can put the screw back in.

As long as you didn't twist the drives in the axle, you ge tone side, the other side should line up. If anything, the other two drivers should be ahead of the the third one, you can always turn them back slightly.

It's easier to fiddle with it than to describe it. You might even be able to unbind it by disconnecting just one side, then lining it all up and putting the side you disconnected back on. 

                                    --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, January 13, 2020 3:50 PM

Randy, all three wheelsets are geared and I had all three out trying to fix the thing. I think the first step may be to disconnect the side rods of the back two wheelsets and start from there. Do you think I can get away with just disconnecting one side of the rods?

I had them in and out several times to no avail and the front wheelset is the most crooked so that is why I am thinking of disconnecting the side rods and starting there. What do you think?

 

Brent

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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, January 13, 2020 4:21 PM

If replacing the wheels with traction tires involved removing the wheels from the axles and re-installing the non-traction-tire ones, you'll need to re-quarter the out-of-sync drivers.  I have NWSL's "Quarterer", but in most cases have found that it's easier and just as accurate doing it "by-eye".

To do so, remove the out-of-sync wheels set(s), then line up the ones remaining with the loco so that the counterweights on one side are all in a horizontal postion at the top or bottom of their rotation or likewise vertical at the front or rear of their rotation.  The counterweights on the other side, if the wheels' position hasn't been altered, should be 90º to those on the other side.

Choose one side of the wheelset that requires quartering to match the other wheels' position on the same side of the loco, then use the position of the counterweights on the other side of the locomotive to reset the quarter of the other wheel to 90º from its counterpart. 

Temporarily replace the re-quartered axle in its appropriate place, line up the wheel used as the starting point on the same side of the locomotive, then check to see if the re-quartered wheel's counterweight matches those on the other side of the loco.  If necessary, re-adjust as needed.

While it may sound obvious, make sure that the wheels thus re-quartered go on the same side as that from which they were taken - it's probably not a big deal if both sides are powered, but on older locos, improper orientation of insulated and non-insulated drivers will cause a short.

Wayne

 

 

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, January 13, 2020 4:39 PM

Those instructions are pretty clear Wayne thanks. Should I remove the side rods on all wheelsets or just the back two sets, also will I have to remove the rods on both sides or just one side to be able to adjust things properly?

My thinking is I should be able to "square up" the front set with the rods still attached to those only.

Brent

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, January 13, 2020 7:01 PM

If all 3 sets are geared, then it becomes a matter of having it all line sup when you drop them in, so they engage the gears in the proper position. I think you might get away with just disconnecting one side, but it might be overall easier if you disconnect both sides.

As Wayne and I both said - if you had to tek the wheels off the exles, or twisted them then the quarting it probably off and you'll have to so some more adjusting to get them all correct. But if all you did was pull off a wheelset complete witht he exle and swap in a different one, they shoudl line up. Just have to jiggle things around so when the slide up into place, one doesn't skip a tooth forward or backward on the gear and get it crooked again.

                                     --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, January 13, 2020 7:38 PM

Whether the new driver sets without traction tires are simple drop-in wheelsets, or are wheels which need to be pressed onto axles, I'd do them one axle at a time, disconnecting any siderods for only the set on which you're working.

As Randy mentions ready-to-use (already quartered) wheelsets can simply be dropped into place, then lifted slightly, if necessary, to clear the gears, in order to allow rotating them to get the counterweights aligned as I mentioned earlier.  

Wayne

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, January 13, 2020 8:25 PM

 I will add that on one of my PCM Reading T1s (thankfully they came with the plain drivers installed, the traction tire set were int he box) had a turned bearing in the front axle. When I popped out just that axle (leaving the rods attached), getting it to slide back in the right way took some fiddling - it wanted to go in with the rods the wrong way. But after fiddling with it a few times, I was able to get the wheelset to drop in with the cranks and thus the rods lines up correctly and it's been fine ever since.

 From a given position in the rotation, there are two ways an axle with the rods attached can drop in - the right way, and with the crank facing the opposite way at an equal angle. TYhe trick is getting it to drop in the right way. It may help to lower the wheels in with the axle at an angle, not perpendicular to the frame. That will allow the rod to get past the binding pointand then as the wheels slide in the last little bit, the rod will pull the wheel in the right way.

                                    --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 5:42 PM

Update, what I learned today. 

Well, I have had that engine apart and back together more times than I can count today ( I ran out of fingers and toes) First thing I discovered and have learned, the bearings/bushings can move along the axle and not sit right causing binding. You have to pay close attention to this. Next, when putting the screws back in to hold the rods on, barely snug causes the loco to not want to move. Once I discovered this and kept them loose I started to make real progress. It is still not perfect but I am almost there. 

I went from Sigh to actually start to enjoy the challenge as I got used to working on the thing. I am actually thinking Canada Post may not get my $ this time.

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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Posted by snjroy on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:31 PM

If the drivers are driven by the gears, and not a single bull gear and side-rods like other steam engines, I would try to get the engine working perfectly without the side-rods, and add the siderods and valve linkages after I got the drive train to work perfectly.

Please let us know what happens - that drive arrangement is one of reasons why I did not get that loco... I battled with a gear-driven loco with side rods in the past and it was a pain. But i did win that battle.

Simon

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:41 PM

Thanks Simon, Once again that would be new territory for me, what kind of issues would I be looking for at that point and how may they be fixed?

Brent

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, January 16, 2020 12:45 AM

snjroy
....that drive arrangement is one of reasons why I did not get that loco...

If I had wanted that locomotive, the drive system would've been the deal clincher...perhaps it's a good thing it wasn't a locomotive in which I otherwise had any interest.

Wayne

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Posted by snjroy on Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:59 AM

I am not an expert in this. I have seen a few European engines with these gears for steam engines, so perhaps Ulrich can comment here. 

It sounds like one set of drivers is out of quarter. I would remove the siderods and valve gear carefully and tackle the quartering using Wayne's approach. I too do it by eye - it's more important to have them all at the same angle than having one at exactly 45 degree angle. If I understand the theory correctly, your engine should the be able to run without the siderods. Once you get the quartering and gear arrangement working perfectly, then you can add the siderods and the valve gear (that are there just for the show, I think). Anyway, that's how I fixed an O scale Pola switcher that had gears and siderods.

Hopefully, a real expert will chime in to correct or confirm. 

Simon

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Posted by snjroy on Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:03 AM

doctorwayne

 

 
snjroy
....that drive arrangement is one of reasons why I did not get that loco...

 

If I had wanted that locomotive, the drive system would've been the deal clincher...perhaps it's a good thing it wasn't a locomotive in which I otherwise had any interest.

Wayne

 

To be fair to Rapido, this type of drivetrain is much more powerfull than the single bull gear type, based on what I have seen and heard.

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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:29 AM

 I really don't think anything is out of quarter. Let me try again. In the top pic, it looks like the rear driver has the rod, for want of a better term, snapped over centr like an over center spring. THe crank flipped rearward when those drivers were seated, instead of going forward. It's pretty much what would happen with the rods in that position if the drivers were set down into the bearings - the rod can't shorten itself to go straight in, so it partially rotated the drivers just enough so the axle could slide in, but now it's leaning the wrong way.

 This can be fiddly to get together, but by carefully doing it, it can go the way its supposed to. It will never just 'fall' in without some pressure. The alternative is removing the rod which should allow freedom to place the drivers with the crank positioned exactly where it needs to be, and then reconnect the rod. One tooth off might not seem like much, but it won't fit if it's so much as one tooth too forward or too back.

 It would be easier if they weren't all geared, but other than that, I see no real negative about driving all 3 axles instead of relying on the rods.

                                               --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by selector on Friday, January 17, 2020 12:31 PM

Brent, before everything went belly-up yesterday, and after you posted your twin photos showing the two locos with their valve gear, I posted something like the following:

Loosen the small screw holding the eccentric crank in place on the loco and rotate the arm about 15 deg clockwise...left.  Retighten, and it now looks like 2160.  I'm assuming you have the cranks all in the same angle and that the engine runs and doesn't bind because the cranks are all spaced evenly.

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, January 17, 2020 12:39 PM

Thanks Crandell.

Do you think the eccentric crank could cause binding or is it there just for show? The wheelsets seem to have a bit of play in them now and the engine is oh so close to running normally. I am thinking a one more tooth realignment may do the trick. 

If you look at the photo, the wheels of the two locos are not in the same position so that is why the eccentric crank shows differently.

2850 is the trouble maker.

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, January 17, 2020 12:45 PM

If you click on the photo twice you can really blow it up. Right now my thinking is wheelset #3 1 click clockwise, or wheelset #2, 1 click anti-clockwise. I'm phoning a friend here.Laugh

Brent

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Posted by selector on Friday, January 17, 2020 2:20 PM

Okay, you are right.  My mind told me you had them both the same, so the eccentric stood out to me.

A locomotive with side-rods should run without a drive-train connected to the axle gears if you push it back and forth by hand.  No binding if the quartering is correct. Without the rods in place, it should run like a diesel model.  So, binding, if it's there, and not due to a bit of grit between the gears, hidden in the lube, or not due to a split gear, and the rods aren't making contact with anything as they cycle, must be due to quartering/alignment of the various cranks.  In that case, I would continue to fiddle with the gear meshing in the right place.

I just cleaned, lubed, and reassembled an older brass-work chime clock.  It took some experimenting to get the gears aligned so that the thing would chime correctly.  But, I finally got it about the 15th time.

And yes, the valve gear, minus the two rods on each side, are inconsequential to the running of the locomotive.  They'll look funny if they're not constructed properly, but there's no reason they shouldn't thrash and churn like they were installed 'normally'.

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, January 17, 2020 6:09 PM

 The trick to get the last driver up into position may be to just roll them back and forth within the limits of the free play in the rods while pushing up into the frame. Assuming the bearings aren't tipped over and blocking it or anything.

                             --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, January 20, 2020 4:17 PM

Okay, after getting a bunch of info on the fix, I found out that it is not just the quartering that needs to be addressed, the three (all geared) sets of drivers have to mesh in a particular way as well and I never stood a chance of fixing it.Sad I had a feeling from the get-go that was the case, so off to Rapido it goes. Hope I didn't damage anything in the process, I was very careful.

I am just waiting for the work order to come from Rapido, I wonder what their shop rate is?Laugh

Come home soon.Crying

Brent

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:31 AM

 Unless you twisted the drivers on the axles, the quarting should be fine. It's just slipping them in and getting the mesh correct. I'm sure the repair staff at Rapido is going to do just the same thing - try and try again until it goes in. I suspect simply taking off the rods would allow them to slip in easier and if one wheelset isn't lined up, it would be easy to spin one tooth either way until it did, then reinstall the rods. I guess I didn;t communicate that well enough.

 I'd be more worried about damaging the details on the top. I have one of those foam loco cradles but I'm not convinced it's enough to protect fine detail from being damaged with a loco sitting in it upside down.

                                   --Randy

 


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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 8:13 AM

rrinker
I have one of those foam loco cradles but I'm not convinced it's enough to protect fine detail from being damaged with a loco sitting in it upside down.

I'll have to post some photos of my foam "support blocks". I never caught on to the foam cradle idea, takes up too much room on the bench. Instead I made two pair of foam blocks. One pair has a "channel" cut out of it which is about 1½" x 1½" (for HO) which I can rest a car or locomotive in completely upside down. By using individual blocks, the foam is about 2" wide*, I can space them to support the locomotive where there are no fine details to get crunched. For instance, I'll place one at the cab roof and the other at the dynamic brake blister, or someplace where there aren't any grab irons or tiny details.

*The dark gray foam came from inside an Athearn Genesis box.

The other pair has a 60° cut and a 30° cut so I can lay a car or loco in it and have access to more of the side, or is I flip them around they are perfect fot holding a car at a good angle for decaling.

When I'm not using the blocks they take up very little space. 

Good Luck with your Hudson, Brent. Sorry to hear you have to part with it again Sad

Regards, Ed

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Posted by BATMAN on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 12:25 PM

I ended up talking to a couple of Rapido gurus through private messaging that I contacted through FB. They disassemble their Hudsons just for something to do. They try and build a better mousetrap by replacing motors and decoders and other bits and pieces. In the end, it was suggested I should send it in for repair as it was a bit of a delicate operation to have the gears inside the loco in the right spot when the wheelsets were dropped in. Not sure how they would get out of position as I did not power the loco when the wheelsets were out. It was beyond my ability to figure it out and time spent was a factor as I have a life outside MRR.

I had the wheels sets drop in easily and what appeared to be in perfect alignment when compared to my other Hudson. I spent hours on it taking it apart dozens of times. I came close but no cigar. It would run but laboured. 

I did not damage any of the cosmetics, however, I was worried about overloading the engine and damaging it, if I kept putting excessive force on it due to improper alignment. It would run poorly at best. 

Thanks for all the help.

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 1:01 PM

rrinker
...I'd be more worried about damaging the details on the top. I have one of those foam loco cradles but I'm not convinced it's enough to protect fine detail from being damaged with a loco sitting in it upside down.

If I were working on the running gear of any locomotive, the first step would be to remove the superstructure, setting it aside where it won't get damaged.

For an issue like that with which Brent is dealing, the running gear would be upside down, on machinist's blocks or blocks of wood or dense foam.

I do think that the gears on all axles is a good idea (it's worked well for years on our model diesels), but the siderods and/or out-of-quarter drivers can make it more difficult to correct when something goes awry.

Wayne

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Posted by selector on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 1:02 PM

After all that, Brent, it really is probably what you'd have ended up doing anyway because I have a sneaking suspicion it wasn't the position of the cranks/gear mesh at all.  They're staff might finally disassemble the drive and find another hidden problem that you would almost certainly not have found.  

I have let four engines go back to BLI over the years, waved goodbye at the dock, and shed a tear.  They all came back, longest three full months, and they were as right as rain.  By mid-Feb at the latest, unless Rapido is swamped with RS-18's and the burning drives, you should have it back.  Heck you could go and return from Maui in that time, fully refreshed.

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Posted by BATMAN on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:21 PM

I have been fortunate to have many job offers come my way through my life, but I guarantee you I will never get one from the Rapido repair dept.Laugh

A guy's gotta know his limitations!Laugh

Brent

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Posted by snjroy on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:06 PM

The finicky aspect of these arrangements is that the multiple gears AND quartering have to be all well aligned and in synch. And the problem gets thicker if you fiddle with the quartering and affect the gear arrangement while doing that. Leaving the clockwork to the pros is probably the best option.

Simon

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Posted by BATMAN on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:37 PM

Yep, I remember when I was a giant among locomotive repairmen. No one could change out those rubber band drives faster than I could.Laugh 

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

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